
Praetorian
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Everything posted by Praetorian
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Fair compairson & evaluation of mains & reserves
Praetorian replied to Praetorian's topic in Gear and Rigging
Ok after reading tons of manufacture descriptions of products I've noted that every main opens on heading has low riser pressure and impressive turning rates compared to all others on the market.. I know that a lot of this is a matter of opinion so I gotta ask wouldn't it be in our (and the manufacturer's) best interests to have some actual numbers? after reading the Robot parachute post with reference to: http:www.extremefly.com/aerospace/guidedsystems/ONYX/[url] why can't a system like this be used to compare mains? so we know just how far a toggle has to be pulled to induce a turn / how hard you have to pull, which equally loaded mains have the highest turn rate etc. the robot makes all inputs 1 the same, repeatable and not subjective 2 measurable in real numbers (total length to pull toggle, total pressure required) the system would need to be modified to be able to do front riser turns .. but that is so do able. Is it cost? I can't be the first to think of this Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
again a post where my limited experience may be useful yay I Just purchased my first set of gear including container, I went used but ONLY because I found one that fit me perfectly, I would have liked to jump a ton of designs but in the end I setteled with trying on as many as I could. Bottom line put it on, see where the handles are and if you like the feel, I'm sorry not to give you an answer on the three you picked (all great containers and I tried them all on) but I would notice point out the thread on Infinity's customer service and ask why they weren't on your list. Another container I didn't get a chance to try but read a ton about was the new Icon. I'd check into it too if your gonna buy new Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Who Lives and Who Dies????
Praetorian replied to MakeItHappen's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
I'm new to this sport, and have already lost one person I really trusted/respected and would have called friend if he hadn't been taken by someone elses mistake... I think every person has a certain number of jumps in them before they go, not a set number. Learning, even just spending a few moments thinking about posts like this one should up that number for most of us. On the list of qualties I can see them and I understand the points made. I think your personal # has a lot to do with your physical and mental ability.. but it has a lot more to do with you having a realistic view of those abilities and their limits. You can incrase your number by learning, seeking advice from those you trust and from experience, from advice and experience you make smarter choices (size and shape of main etc) you can decrease you number by failing to listen, by taking bad advice (as a warning to everyone that means your hurting someone by giving them bad advice) and by failing to respect your limits. I greatly respect the posters on this webpage, I have learned a lot in this off season, and as I go back to get recurrent I hope some of what I have learned has upped my number .. and I hope everyone else has taken something useful from this web page ... and upped their number. I plan on being in this sport for a long time .. and I'd really like to keep the number of friends I loose to a minimum Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
All the people I've delt with at kapowsin are great (my first jumps were there) I got a used Infinity and the support when I was looking was unreal, they looked up all the measurements knew exactly whos rig I was looking at and made sure I was getting the right rig for me .. and they knew they were getting Nothing from the deal, just helping me get a good used container and helping one of their owners pass on his gear (so he could buy new gear for his kid), oh and when I got it they sent me a manual first class mail and laughed at me on the phone when I offered to pay for the postage, class act all the way Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Getting insturction is the best but if like me your away from the DZ for long periods of time getting an instructiion video like "pack like a pro" or "trouble free ZP" are good ideas I don't think I can pack now because I've watched them but I understand the steps/purpose better Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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From your discription of your experience I (with my limited experience) actually find myself in a position to give useful advice yay I went from a static line program flying Manta 280+sqft to the program at SDC, my first jump there was with a Saber2 210.. and it was the best landing I'd had yet, Loaded under 1:1 the saber2 is forgiving (I weigh about 180 with gear) I've sense worked down to the point where I'll be on a 170 as my first main and I went with the LOTUS .. I like the airlocks and the Louts and saber2 are so close in design and fly very simmilarly .. if anything the Lotus is More Square and forgiving then the saber2 and the airlocks are a plus to holding wing shape in rough air especially at low wingloading.. only problem is they are not findable used not enough of them running around, but if you do go new Lotus can be found new cheeper then saber2 in a lot of cases. a couple of notes 1 the air locks add some size to the pack job both the extra fabric and the extra trapped air if your not careful, so if you go with a lotus Make sure your bag will fit it (about 5% bigger then an equivelant size saber2) until I get better at a propacking I'll probably use sidepacking or start by laying the chute out like a sidepack rolling over it to push the air out, then CAREFULLY repositon it to propack. I dont know your exit weight but to protect a knee I'd get on a Large Saber2 and have a coach really pound good flare into me, then get a Lotus(or whatever) and have a coach watch my landings and again improve my flair. A good flair will land you softer then a big chute with bad flair anyday and I've found the saber2 much easier to flair the the mantas .. and the "novice in high wind" isnt a problem your not gonna jump in that high of wind and the owners manual has a really easy instruciton for "grounding" the lotus after landing. The kind of wind that would be a real problem would be a problem under any main. Again I am a total novice but my experience is close to yours and I've made the transition your looking at. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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I agree on the AAD, however knowing that My instructor would hang it out to try and save me (even knowing I have an AAD) I couldn't not try to go after my coach (or anyone else I was close enough to reach if they looked completely out of it) and I knew they had no AAD, at my experience level the only diver I could reach is one I was exiting with so beyond that its a non issue. I'm curious just how much skill it takes to dock on an unconcious jumper and grab their Reserve handle (not making fun seriously asking) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Actually this is the Only reason I see any arguement about being able to check visually if the skyhook is still attached (I think this arguement is well covered by bill and I agree with him that its placement is the best he could do and the safest he would trust) but I'll admit under a badly messed up main at low altitude where your normal choice is the "dump reserve into mess and hope for the best" if I had checked my Skyhook (assuming I had one) just before the jump I might be tempted to break away trust that I've got a better chance with the skyhook giving me a clean reserve then dumping the reserve into the mess for the sake of more nylon.. either way your taking a gamble and your in a situation where you've got nothing to loose by doing something and nothing to gain by doing nothing. I'd like to have a skyhook on my rig, when I think about getting a new rig in several years (just got mine and cant afford to switch) a skyhook might be a decision making factor Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Quick question, I picked my PD 160R because it was the biggest PD reserve that was still smaller then my 170 main (paper knowledge 2 out studies PD and military saying slightly smaller reserve makes 2 out more likely to resolve to biplane) which was confirmend by a few "experts" I've talked to.. is a 174sqft 7 cell reserve actually going to be smaller then a 170sqft 9cell main??? (I think part of the issue is line length so I guess part of the quetion is are the lines on a PD 160R going to be shorter then the lines on my Lotus 170 main??? Did I totally defeat the purpose of picking the 160 over 176 Reserve? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Never thought about it ... I really doubt I have the hots for her, but I've been wrong before. I slipped, I was trying to avoid gender in the post didn't want to bias any replies What else are you going to do if you in effectively a 2 way with an unconscience jumper but slap them till you deploy them.. oh and yea its been MONTHS and I'm going NUTS been reading everything I can and getting together my first complete rig wont be back in the air again till april Would like more discussion of MAIN vs Reserve oh and I know that the only way I would be able to notice and do anythng about another free faller in trouble is if we left the plane together 2 way 4 way that sort of thing (I'm just too new and not skilled enough.. hell I dont think I remember seeing other jumpers while I'm in free fall .. other then my coach, I'm still a student so I leave last and pull high .. that might have something to do with it Edited to fix some typos Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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OK not one comment? not even one barb about my stupid james bond dream? HOW ABOUT ANYONE ANSWER THE ACTUAL QUESTIONS If you catch an unconcious skydiver do you pull their main or their reserve? Should you pull high giving them time to wake up or should you pull them lower if they are hurt bad (less time to the ground and help less distance from the DZ) If you have CRW skills should you try to dock on them and guide them? Can you Flare a canapy you are docked on, and if so can you seperate and land safely yourself after? oh yea and one other, how do you decide when to break off and save yourself .. is this decision changed if you know they do or do not have a cypres? Would you go low enough trying to save someone that you had to go to your reserve/ risk an AAD opening? Have I seen too many movies? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Ok so I've been having a recurring skydiving nightmare with delusions of grandeur.. and I want to know 1 what would you do 2 what "should you do" and replies to what I did (in the dream I know this is beyond my skill/balls in the real world) My coach jumps without a cypress, main is elliptical 130ish reserve is 120something (what ever PD reserve is in the 120 range, I know its smaller then the main) IN said stupid nightmare coach is getting into floater position and I'm walking to door (twin otter) something happens (engine blows up pilot sneezes whatever, coach falls away from plane and somehow I just know coach has been knocked cold, I dive out after coach ... air to air I catch coach .. around 10,000 feet AGL ... try to awaken coach (slap to face etc) check pulse (ALTERNATE POINT 1) now I decide to deploy coach's main and pull my own to follow/yell at etc, My main opens nicely I see unconscious coach under a spinning diving Mal.. now here is the REALLY BS PART.. in the dream I fly over coach, chop my main catch spinning diving mal pull coach's release... now were back in Free fall, pull coach's reserve and then my own, now coach is unconscious under a reserve I'll gestimate at 1.2 or 1.3 :1 and flying into trouble/bad landing area away from DZ once again BS kicks in, I with NO knowledge of CRW fly over top dock onto her cute turn towards the DZ and stay stacked till flare time (for coach)execute a flare to land coach then flare for myself and land ... total BS now the questions 1 what would you do under every condition other then the intentional cutaway I know thats beyond my guts../probably stupid and would never work. I think the better option would have been to go direct to reserve first, smaller yes but square not elliptical. Pulling High is my other thought gives the most time to wake up before landing 2alternate point .. check pulse (not sure I could do that in Free fall but go with it) NO pulse my opinion stay with coach till about 3000 feet pull coach's reserve pull mine... comments opinions PLEASE don't mock my BS dream It was not my analytical mind making up those BS air to air rescues, at my skill I'd probably spend most of the dive fighting to catch coach and when I did I'd probably pull silver and keep my fingers crossed for coach. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Ebay has one or two listed Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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huh... OK first was a tandem (no Idea how big) then static line for 9 jumps on HUGE mantas (around 300 I think).. I weigh just under 180 with gear, well maybe over 180 with the mantas 3 jumps Saber 2 210 6 jumps saber 2 190 INTEND 2-5 more jumps on the 190 (up to my instructor and me) 1 on a saber 2 170 for the rest of the year (and probably the next few) 400+ jumps min my new Lotus 170 This seems reasonable to me (feel free to disagree I haven't bought the lotus yet) I'm jumping at Skydive Chicago, discussion with various instructors there said that 170 at about my A license was fine as long as I was smart about shape (ie close to square) in more then one case I was told that they wouldn't be surprised to see me on a 150 .. and for a while I had delusions of a 150 Sam or stiletto.. then I pulled my head outta my ass ... but compared to some posts am I going fast? if yes ok but too fast? I land on my feet and close to my aim point (10M or less) My coaches say 170 is good (lotus and saber2 are close in shape lotus is actually a little more square) at the time I was thrilled now I'm a little bothered by the suggestion of a 150... maybe they were pulling my leg? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Smaller reserve (according to the Military and PD) is the better option, it stands a better chance of resolving into a biplane in a two out, larger reserve = grater chance of a side by side which could lead to entanglement or worse go directly to entaglement especially when paired with a smaller highly elliptical main .. (WARNING BOOK KNOWLEDGE NOT EXPERIENCE I"M A COMPLETE NOVICE) now I think this means smaller but not TINY if I remember right smaller but CLOSE in size was the final suggestion in both reports(military and PD), but as a novice I have to ask is the risk of having to land a seven cell f-111 160 when my main is a 9cell ZP 170 a lesser or greater risk then the one I run IF I end up with a 2 out? (I think so and thats how I made my choice) but I weigh just under 160 with out gear, so my choice was PD160 because it was the BIGGEST reserve that would still be smaller then my main, I feel confident in my ability to land a 160(as do my instructors) or I would have gone with a bigger main so I could have a bigger reserve or maybe re-evaluated my risk assessment Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.
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Make sure you READ the waiver!
Praetorian replied to billvon's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
Its all been said: Points not worth discussing Can or can't you sue (covered) Is it a violation of your word regardless of if its legal to sue (covered, agreed to disagree) Is the contract valid for Gross negligence (it says it is but you can't waive your right to sue for gross neg so again its legal to sue but is it a violation of your word? see above) Is the diver responsible ultimately for his/her choice to jump YES (regardless of the information he has been given by people he trusts) Is it wrong to intentionally violate someone's trust (including violation of the spirit of the wavier) basically we agree to disagree with some seeing gray and others seeing black and white Is it wrong and stupid to sue for honest mistakes/random failures innate to the sport or your own stupidity i.e. poor piloting etc (most of us agree, yes) Trying to come up with crazy situations to get the people who see in black and white to see gray .. waste of time Is the wording of the waiver extreme YUP Trying to convince people who see in grey they are wrong and violating the contract and their word regardless of how crazy the situation given (covered in the wording of the waiver or not) again a waste of time I really enjoyed the mental exercise of this post, in the long run I doubt anyone changed the opinion they came in with or their personal view of the world but even for those who I disagree with thanks, and to anyone with more original argument (even to the topics I in my "wisdom" have claimed to be covered) please continue maybe the exercise isn't quite as dead as I seem to think :) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Make sure you READ the waiver!
Praetorian replied to billvon's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
ON the philosophical note "survival of the fittest" is a state of nature that has no real application to the human race now. Our society functions on trust, you trust the other drivers on the road to have some control (you can claim you don't trust them and to some extent I don't either but if you like me don't pull over and stop every time you see another car anywhere near you then you do trust others) We depend on the word of our rigger, the skill inteligence and good behavior of our pilots, students trust their instructors. Any intentional wanton violation of this trust is so wrong it superseeds any contract (which is why the courts void waivers in these cases) A previous post talked about "manning up" and in my reply I said simply Manning up is for everyone, pilot, rigger, JM, Student and most importantly ME, but when I make the decision to jump I know the risks, I weigh them and make my call. If I have been given intentionally false information from people I trust (rigger pilot DZO) then I havn't been given a fair shot at deciding what risk I'm actually running. Again, to everyone who says its my call and my fault.. your full of it no one, not one of us actually checks EVERYTHING some where in there you are trusting at least one (more likely MANY) people to be doing their best, not intentionally trying to screw you, not cutting corners and lieing, or your running on the assumption that anything you dont check IS being Intentionally negelcted/screwed with and you make you measure of risk based on that ..(which if it were true gives you about a 1:10000 chance of living) if thats the case you nuts but I bet you get a bigger rush from the sport then I do, and I hope your wrong on your assumptions. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Make sure you READ the waiver!
Praetorian replied to billvon's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
I like your nice simple view of it, and I agree if it were worded in the manner you imply (simply agree not to sue for common human errors) then Yea but the wording of the waiver (in an attempt to keep clever legal scum from turning a simple mistake into wanton negligence) is so extreme as to be the equivalent of "ok shucks you want to ride in my plane ok, but if anything happens including my slashing your parachute with a chainsaw flying you intentionally up to 25000 feet without oxygen and then banking the plane so you fall out unconscious you promise not to sue" the situation is so insane you assume he's joking and go for the ride, and unless were in bizaro world, there will be no insane clown on the plane with a chainsaw waiting for you. when I sign a waiver I read every thing, understand that the spirit of the contract is just as you propose to keep the innate risks of the sport, and human error from ruining the life of the DZO and closing the DZ. And when I read the "we can do whatever we want no matter how crazy / evil / stupid and you cant touch us", I understand that that can't stand up in court that its just there to keep people who might sue for stupid stuff in line and have no problem signing something saying I won't sue I DON'T CARE if the DZO thinks I've given my word that he can do crazy evil stupid stuff intentionally and be judgment proof, in my mind and on my honor I've signed a stupidly worded document knowing what I am swearing to (not to sue for stupid shit) and knowing that the insane wording is worthless has no ability to bind me, and in the kind of insane world where a DZO would try to kill me by cutting corners or worse not only will he have the law (which his waiver/contract will be voided by) but if I live he'll probably receive from me a violation of law that if caught will land me in jail. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Slider storage, performance, ... problems
Praetorian replied to Praetorian's topic in Safety and Training
Ok, so to my setup I need to add some bumpers/stoppers/hats.. what are they called? has PD come out with a suggestion as to which ones to use? in another 50 jumps or so I can open the links, pull the hats and re-close the links (I'll ask now if I need a rigger to do this.. but either way I'd probably have my rigger check it/do this at a repack and ask my rigger to do it while I watch) the advantage to removing them is I could put them back if I change my mind, if I'm sure at the time could I just cut them off (being careful not to damage lines or links)? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Slider storage, performance, ... problems
Praetorian replied to Praetorian's topic in Safety and Training
Ok so my revised plan, Slinks, Kill line slider with stainless, no "link hats/bumprs" thus making it possible that I can pull the slider down if I wish. Yes I do have the ability to steer with risers, and also know to clear my airspace before taking my attention off the air around me even for a second NOW a new question ... Loosen the chest strap? I know you mean post deployment, but my question is how much? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Slider storage, performance, ... problems
Praetorian replied to Praetorian's topic in Safety and Training
Too big? I'm assuming you mean its too big for me to notice a change in performance between killed and stowed slider? I hope your not telling me that I'm jumping too big a chute.... thats advice I would never expect to see Oh on another note, yea my chute will come with a slider(haven't ordered it yet, waiting on the feds to give me my money back) it also will come with Slinks.. cuz I'm gonna order them too Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Slider storage, performance, ... problems
Praetorian replied to Praetorian's topic in Safety and Training
Ok, I did check for posts relating to this and found some information but I have specific questions I'm assembling my first rig, my main is a Lotus 170 loaded 1:1, on all of my jumps I have used a "kill line" slider. I have questions about sliders past the links (as I have never done this, in fact I think my student gear was set up to make this impossible) Before I get to my questions I'll describe my intended setup and would like any answer to the following questions to reference my intended setup/ make suggestions to modify it MY SET UP Slinks, narrow risers (I always get the numbers wrong) kill line slider, I see no reason to pay extra for stainless on the slider as the Slinks shouldn't be able to damage the slider gromets Ok first Safety, I'm worried that the slider could come past the links on opening and PIN my toggles, if this occurs can it easily be cleared by pulling the slider past them? I'm seeing one brake knocked loose and the other trapped, can something like this happen, how do I adjust my setup to prevent this while still allowing me to pull my slider down... which leads to my other question. Performance, a kill line slider as far as I know mostly cuts noise, pulling the slider down has the added benefits of less noise, wider riser spread (better wing shape) and less drag .. are these benefits going to be worth the trouble,(I.e. actually noticeable) or should I just get a kill line slider, and put some kind of bumper above the Slink to prevent the slider coming down and last but not least, assuming I have this right, all I do is reach up grab the slider and force it down the risers as far as I can get it to go, and leave it behind my head? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
How many Skydivers smoke? (legal tobacco products)
Praetorian replied to Praetorian's topic in The Bonfire
Wow I hope I never meet you face to face, I'll probably make some comment about smokeing and you'll blow smoke in my face, as I consider that an assult I'll probably punch you in your face, your blowing smoke in someones face is the same to them as pissing on their face... which come to think of it is a better responce then a punch ... I'll have to work on the "quick draw" :) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Make sure you READ the waiver!
Praetorian replied to billvon's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
First if the DOT required it, the wording would never be as extreme as it is at the dropzone, never in America would the government allow one drunkcrazyunlisenced driver to hurt another and be judgment proof, or smash up $90000 worth of cars(cars) and their owners would be dependent on him to have the good will to pay what he owes. Second as to "Manning up" I agree, and for all of the post that talk about all risks being on the jumper I fully expect to see all of you watching the packer you pay to pack up your chute, after administering a piss test and a field drunk test, I'll expect you to look over the maintenance logs of the plane, the pilots log book, and then watch the next engine overhaul BEFORE you jump .... no "Manning up" is for everyone, if you make a mistake and it hurts someone you feel sorry and try to make amends and waiver or not they shouldn't sue. But "Manning up" also means everyone we trust is doing their best, that they are not intentionally screwing with our safety behind our backs and telling us to our face its all good, when you do something underhanded (intentionally not replace all the batts on you student AADs) and you say you have .. then part of "Manning up" is expecting to reap the pain in some way when that intentional act harms someone Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. -
Make sure you READ the waiver!
Praetorian replied to billvon's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
The problem with risks is they are probabilities, you need one of the risks to actually cause a problem before the "evil" DZO/Pilot gets shut down, the chance of getting called out by a fatality/injury is low enough that some people will intentionally cut corners knowing that if and when one of them cuts a divers life not just some expense the waiver will cover them, so they add risk that you know nothing about so you cannot willingly accept, and while the price (which may be too high) is some lame suits that get through the benefit is that DZO's and their advisers know a waiver will mean nothing if they get caught far enough out of line .. thus the pressure to keep them inline (provided that love of their fellow skydivers isn't enough) as for divers suing each other again its sad when its a stupid mistake, but it the threat keeps someone taking too many risks, risks that include hurting me when I'm doing everything right..... I'd rather live in a world where people keep their risks to themselves but if the threat of loosing everything in your life to the civil legal system is the ONLY reason you don't fly fast and close to my NOVICE approach pattern (again assuming I'm doing it right) then I'll make that threat .. and hope I never have to use it Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.