Praetorian

Your not getting the point of the other side of the argument, I understand you feel your word is absolute, but I'm pretty sure when you signed the paper that you were also assuming that at no time would your life be intentionally put at risk by anyone but you, that the owner would have the brains to keep his gear up to spec(or damn close) and the only risks you were running were the normal ones associated with the sport, not in a perfect world but in the real world not one where intentionally evil crazy stupid things are perfectly common, I'm sure that you understand the wording is extreme so extreme that it allows for situations where it would be voided. I respect that you feel even in those extremes your word would still hold. But any sense of justice in a complex matter cannot be black and white. In the most extreme violations the waiver is dissolved by the court (judges) so the contract you signed and gave your word to is no longer there. I appreciate that you feel your word is your bond and holds beyond this. Now as for lawsuits that people file without this extreme violation I hate those people and any system that would support a suit for a million bucks for a fractured ankle form a bad landing from a "bad" spot But I also hate any system that would hold a waiver as a perfect shield for a perfect villain Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I agree take any risk you like and if the DZO is willing to tell you up front the plane is held together with gum and bailing wire, the pilot is a kid he pulled from a video arcade and the gear he gave you is surplus and hasn't been checked or used in 10 years ... then its your call, but if all of the above is true and he tells you that the plane is up to FAA regs the gear is great, and the pilot is a former topgun/current airline pilot, according to the contract you/we all signed, the DZO is untouchable to you (yea I got confirmation from a friend the waiver for SDC includes Gross neg, and also a paragraph about it having to be thrown out one paragraph at a time) so while we have signed wavers that have language that includes the above (total BS) situation, we all sign believing that this situation will never come to pass, and were it to occur, we understand that the waiver will never standup (and the DZOs and their legal advisers do too) so when I gave my word it was with the knowledge that as long as what I just described never comes to pass I have swarn not to sue, but should the above occur then damn right my word is not binding .. as when the contract is erased by abuse so is my signature/vow Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

your a better person then I am, I'd kick my ass. and Sue if I didn't offer to help pay medical (sorry the pronouns are confusing me and I'm the one writing this) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Interesting, in skiing in most states a hit and run on the slope is criminal, and your are liable for any harm/damage you cause to another skier on the hill. If I come in outta control and at mach3 because I'm jumping a chute I lack the skill to fly, and I strike you in the landing zone and break your neck.. would you give me a pass? I did something stupid, why shouldn't I get the same free pass a reckless DZO or pilot gets? (waver or not its the concept of "accepting all risks" I'm getting at (like skybytch talks about) ... this is to everyone no just dgskydive.. and its food for though/discussion not my opinion or an attack at anyone Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I'm doing this from memory sorry I dont have a copy I can post. However let me make clear that though the SDC waiver is extreme it is also the nicest best DZ I've ever checked out/jumped at (not that I'm an expert but I looked at quite a few places before I took my best friends and then girlfriend out with me on our first jumps (at Kapowsin Air sports in Washington state) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

actually the waiver at SDC also specifically covers Gross Negligence in its wording (unless I'm mistaken) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

sorry that sounded like a personal attack (not meant as one) this should have been an edit in my last post in reply to billvon again sorry (I'm still getting used to all the options in these fourms Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

And while word of mouth is trying to close the place down someone who can't believe that a buisness this crazy would be allowed to continue to exist takes the DZO's word that its all rumor (an intentional lie) and dies, but you kept your word and someone who trusted the good will of the world dies. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Word or no word we all understand that there are limits to human behavior, the wording of the wavers is so over the top that most of us sign them knowing that if the DZO goes PSYCHO/EVIL that the contracts signed cant possibly hold no matter what the language. That having been said in those extreme cases no law suit is going to matter, and if my wife/kid (if I should ever have either) sue following such a PSYCHO/EVIL act I have no problem with that Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Agreed totally, its as simple as this you sign .. or you don't jump. The wording is as extreme as it can be to prevent as many lame ass suits as possible. The language says "we can do anything" and if I remember SDC's waver you promise that should you violate your word and sue.. and win .. that you will personally pay the settlement for them .. to yourself. On a higher plane of thought .. sue? why is money going to give you your eyes/legs etc back? If its an honest mistake or my mistake or a freak accident thats my choice. If the DZO or pilot intentionally makes fraudulent statements, intentionally packs socks in the student reserve container ... well then after the criminal case is settled yea I'll probably go after them I signed a contract so I could jump but would gladly violate my word under EXTREME circumstances as would anyone. But as a matter of principle screw suing money can't fix some things ... thats what revenge is for (now don't freak I'm not talking about getting an instructor for a bad spot, I'm mostly joking) but if you pick the worst of the above mentioned fraudulent downright evil acts .. then yea Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I know it's odd my first was tandem from 13.5 and the ground didn't look real, then static line, .. let me tell you leaving an otter at 13.5 is so much easier then climbing out under the wing of a Cessna, at 3000 feet, that low the ground is very real, I could see my car in the lot by the hanger. My Instructor at SDC (I'm finishing their AFP course) teases me about how timid I am walking to the door, and then how fearlessly I leave once I'm there, I'll admit I don't like looking down from the door, its odd I'll catch worrying about falling out! Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Ok so I should check for info before asking questions I just found multiple threads covering this never mind (unless you want to weigh in on the rapid links part) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

What is the benefit of Soft/cloth/S-links VS "traditional links" any downside? My PD reserve (being shipped to me as we speak so I haven't seen it yet) come with "rapid links" what are these? any reason to worry/consider replacement? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Ok Novice = aff6 or above, altitude is about 10K (yea I know he should be wearing his appropriate gear, but again it defeats the purpose of the hypothetical same as answering that you would put him out directly on reserve would. I like discussions in context, but maybe what I should have asked was "compare and contrast the flight characteristics of these mains with a 180lb exit weight include in your reply discussion of how they would respond to minor mistakes during opening and landing as well as specifying where a minor mistake becomes a major mistake on each." Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I'm really not getting what I was after here, staying with the saber2 170 isn't an option in this because so obviously the right choice, (hell its what I'm gonna do, well a Lotus 170 if I can find one) requires no discussion of size (wingloading) vs shape, as to the second random ass part, sorry broken plane ill conceived for discussion, but ... see next Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Ok size Vs shape .. maybe this is a better asked in safety but I'm gonna ask here.. HYPOTHETICAL (please answer the question ESPECIALLY THE WHY PART no speeches) If a new jumper trained on Saber2s finished his "A" on a Saber2 170 would rather see that novice on a Stiletto190, Saber1 170 or saber2 150 if you would please put the chutes head to head (all combos) and explain your reason. (exit weight is just under 180lbs) separate question, if you HAD to put a novice out, burning or broken plane whatever.. would you put them under a saber1 150 or a stiletto 190 if the only other option was no chute/certain death. This is just an intellectual exercise, the reasons for the decisions are what I'd like to read. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Anyone know anything about an alti-5? I've been told they are like alti-3s but made of PLASTIC I can't find any information on them. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I cant check while I'm at work but is that the link to 'toys in babeland" in Seattle? I took my then girlfirend there when I still lived in Seattle for her birthday and said to pick out whatever she wanted (she couldnt decide between two so I got them both for her) It was so fun to see the emotions conflict, embarased shyness and kid in candy store glee, I think the embarassed droped off as other customers came in (the married couple in the volvo with the baby took any fear that this was abnormal or deviant away) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

other 3 times? I'm looking for a lotus 170 as my first main, (anyone know someone selling one?) and I'm curious 3 cutaways, in how many jumps? packing issues? cuz I'm new at packing too and any tips/warnings about packing in general, the Lotus in specific would be well received, (I'd much rather learn from someone else's packing mistake that leads to a Mal, then practice landing my reserve when I make the mistake myself) .. not that it had to be a packing error, I'm looking for anything I can learn about the Lotus /mals and cutaways on an airlocked main. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Either way, he was heads up getting the plane pointed away from the crowd and saving his own life*** United states Airshow regulations state that the "velocity vector" of any aircraft in the show cannot be pointed towards the audience, so if they are following the rules the pilot can punch out or smash the plane into the ground without fear of taking out the stands Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

this is an all or nothing either you do or you don't if this is interiesting to someone else they can ask how many quit/started or other questions Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Read the army and PD reports on two squares out, smaller reserves make it far more likely that you will get a biplane or a side by side that resolves to a biplane (smaller square behind larger main) Larger behind smaller leads to a side by side which will not resolve to a biplane and side by sides are much riskier then a biplane, they can entangle or form a down plane close to the ground. That having been said (and proven) I would like as large a reserve as I can get especially if my AAD opened it cuz I'm unconscious.. imagine an uncontroled landing under a 113 reserve, thats gonna hurt better then no chute at all ... but still not something I ever wanna try Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Named after a russian (USSR) front line Fighter Jet Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I'm a new skydiver looking for a rigger in/near Madison wisconsin. I jump mostly down at Skydive Chicago but as they are closed for another couple of months and its kinda a long drive, I was hoping I could find a rigger closer who could inspect the used gear I'm looking at buying and when it comes time pack a reserve for me etc. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.