pajarito

So, it appears that you do believe in some moral absolutes. It also sounds like your retribution would be based solely on anger and vengeance. Don’t get me wrong, God has made it clear in the Bible that he is angered with sin. However, punishment in hell is not based on that. If that person who raped & murdered your wife stood trial, was found guilty, and was then standing in front of the judge for sentencing, would it be alright with you if the Judge decided to let the convict go without justice being served? What if that criminal sincerely changed his life and for 10 years before capture, gave to charity, worked for a home for battered women, served his country in war, and led his Sunday school class at church? What if he was really, really sorry and felt guilty for what he had done? What if he pleaded with the Judge, because he knew that the Judge was an exceptionally good man, to let him go based on what he has done since. Should that Judge let that person go who brutally raped and murdered your wife? Wouldn’t that make him a corrupt Judge? Does the fact that the convict has done all these things, changed his life, and is sincerely sorry have anything at all to do with the crime on his record that requires justice? God is holy. God is just. God is also love. Those are attributes of God given in the Bible. That love, however, is a perfecting love and it is demonstrated in that, while we were still sinners, he died for us. It is not at the exclusion of his nature of being just requiring that all sin be punished. That is unreasonable. If I lied to my children, they might not like it but they couldn’t do much about it. If I lied to my wife, she could cause more havoc in my life and might divorce me. If I lied to the Government, that is called perjury and they could put me in jail and ruin my life. Now try and think of it in terms of an infinite perfect God (it’s hard for me) who requires moral perfection and cannot be in the presence of sin. The smallest white lie is evidence of an evil and wicket heart. It is an offense on your long record of offenses which requires justice. The Bible does say that a person will be judged by what he has done alluding to the idea that there are varying degrees of punishment in hell. However, it doesn’t really matter, does it? If you are found guilty of even what “you” would consider a very minor sin, you will go to the same prison and it will be forever. I don’t mean to be direct and certainly not offensive and uncaring but “were they genuinely good people? Based on whose standard of goodness? Without the righteousness of Christ, if they’ve lied, stolen, committed adultery, blasphemed, etc., then they had crimes on their record which had to be accounted for. Given that I can’t speak for sure on this topic b/c it is not expanded on in the Bible, here is an idea. A person may have sincerely repented and put their trust in the Savior earlier in life. That person may have developed or always had a medical problem which contributed to severe depression which they couldn’t control. Granted, taking your own life is obviously a sin, but it is not unforgivable. The only unforgivable sin is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (e.g. wasting the time you have available to choose “the Way, the Truth, and the Life: John 14:6).

There's no need to use blasphemy and be offensive in order to make your point. All other religions are "work righteous" based. You have to do something or work for your own righteousness or enlightenment (e.g. Righteousness comes from your own efforts). Christianity stands alone in that righteousness only comes through repentance and faith in the Savior. It is not of yourself. You are sinful by nature and do not merit righeousness. Here is what Mormonism teaches. Doesn't sound much like Christianity to me.

The purpose of the Law is to show the sinner of his sinfulness. The Law is like a mirror that you look into which shows you a reflection of your soul. Paul said he didn't know what sin was before he was shown the Law. What purpose is that? It appeals to the conscience. Those who leave out the realities of hell, judgment, and punishment should be charged with malpractice just like a physician. Until a person is convinced of the sickness, they will not appreciate or appropriate the cure. The Law brings about this realization.

I agree with Steve and I'm not trying to be offensive. However, I do feel the need to warn people of what's ahead. Romans didn't sugar coat reality and neither will I. If you saw a blind man walking toward a cliff unaware that he was about to die a horrible death, would you try and warn him? Would you take the time to befriend him before explaining to him that he's about to go over the cliff? Would you speak softly so you'd be sure an not offend him. Maybe you'd give him a set of headphones and a radio so he'd just enjoy his walk better and hope he'd make a course correction. Or, if you knew he was about to die a horrible death, would you shout at him, shake him by the shoulders to get his attention, and plead with him not to continue on his path of destruction? If you know that there's a hell, how could a person who cares at all about others not pass along what they know? One should always be respectul and as gentle as possible, however, the truth has to be told as it is. If Jesus, Peter, and Paul expressed it in this way, so should we all.

I am tolerant of other's beliefs. I respect your wish to believe whatever you want. I just don't have to agree with it and feel free to express why. Thanks for the link though. I already knew of the website.

The idea that Jesus never existed is a fringe idea not taken seriously by most.

I know. Just being sarcastic.

Point?

Let's see... Jesus says to do one thing. Kallend (and Butters) say to do another. What to do?...

To glorify God.

I have no idea how you could possibly know that. However… Depends on whose goal you’re referring. Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the Apostles, always preached law to the proud and grace to the humble (e.g. Jesus with the woman at the well). The gift of the Gospel is never offered before the heart is prepared by the Law (judgment/hell). Jesus spoke more about hell and judgment than heaven and forgiveness in the NT. There’s a reason for that. The Law is a Schoolmaster to bring us to Christ so we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24). I think I’ll stick to the example set by Jesus. You’re right. There is much more to God. But for you in your unrepentant state, there is only judgment, hell, and punishment. What makes this amazing, however, is that God loves you enough anyway to have suffered and died to pay your penalty. It’s like this. If I offered you $1,000,000 as a gift, it would do you absolutely no good whatsoever unless you accepted and appropriated it.

"I" "lack the capacity" to convert anyone. That's not my job. The truth may in fact turn many people away. It may turn some toward, however. How could you possibly know if I'm doing God a disservice? Where do you get your information from?

There is only one God. How about this... My God is the God of Ralph. This thread's purpose is so that you & I can ask my God, which I just made up in my head, called Ralph questions. You may happen to not believe in the God of Ralph. Yours is the flying spaghetti monster. You may want to ask it some questions in this thread. What is the point in that? How about this with regard to the differing religions (roadmaps to God). You & I are driving on an interstate with the goal of reaching Canada. At first, the scenery and landscape seem to fit. However, as we drive along, it starts to warm up, the land gets very flat, and we start to see palm trees. Then, we realize we’re heading South instead of North. If we keep driving, we’ll wind up in the water instead of the mountains. The fact that I really believe in the map doesn't make any difference. It's an incorrect map. In order to reach the intended destination, what must we do? Turn 180 degrees and head in the other direction, right? Christianity is radically and completely different from any other religion on the planet that you might follow or even make up for yourself. You're "God" may be the one true God or my "God' may be the one true God but they both can't be the one true God (or religion).

The penalty for sin has not changed. The wages of sin is death. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the one of the New. The ultimate demonstration of his love, however, is that he is withholding judgment/wrath in order that as many as possible will repent and be saved. It is NOT God's will that any should perish.

I’m not trying to play God. It’s just that assumptions based on preconceived bias can lead to incorrect theological conclusions. I was just trying to correct with Biblical examples. It’s in the book.

Because sin is "exceedingly sinful" in the eyes of God. If I raped and murdered your mother or wife, would you consider that to be wrong and deserving of punishment? How much punishment? How much more so do you think even what you would consider a minor infraction offends an infinitely holy & just God? Whether you agree with it or not, it is there. It is where God will send all lawbreakers. It's reasonable and just. Not every sin. Those who wait until their time comes and fail to repent and put their faith in the Savior will suffer "the second death” in hell. There is no Biblical basis for this. The Bible is very silent on the issue. I believe there are instances where one could possibly be forgiven suicide.

How'd I do? And I hope he responds: Well done, my good and faithful servant. --Matthew 25:23

I don't believe you exist.

If you mean by fundamentalist that I believe the Word of God over the word of man, then I think that all who claim the title of Christian should be a fundamentalist. I mean...really. Why call yourself a Christian at all if you don't buy into the fundamentals what the religion teaches? You can't pick what you like and discard what you don't. If you do that, you're trying to make God conform to you. That won't happen. If you're referring to me as a fundamentalist, then I am proud to be one. I'll wear it on my t-shirt. God doesn't change. We, on the other hand, either do or do not. Your decision or indecision has consequences.

I take it back. Some of the conclusions you guys come up with do not require mental gymnastics. As a matter of fact, they don’t require much thought at all. Nothing real is ever as simple as some of you make it out to be. You shouldn’t conclude anything in any written work by simply reading one sentence. Context is everything. Let’s look at more of the passage instead of only one verse. Daniel’s interpretation of the dream is found starting at verse 20. He sees that Nebuchadnessar himself is symbolized as the tree, that his authority would be taken away from him, that he would be driven away, but that his kingdom would remain. The dream was fulfilled. It’s got nothing at all to do with describing the physical dimensions of the Earth. It was a dream. However, it requires the actual reading of the text to derive its meaning.

And you guys speak of supposed mental gymnastics required of Christians. Yours is very impressive. I give you a 9.8.

The following is part of an e-mail conversation between Ray Comfort (Christian Evangelist) and James David Franz (Atheist) which was later compiled into a book called “Intelligent Design vs. Evolution.” At the time the following quote was written, James Franz didn’t know exactly what Ray Comfort did for a living. The response by James Franz is very insightful.

Nice contribution Zen. Merry Christmas!