pajarito

You choose to go to hell, if you go. Every time you sin, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong. (conscience = with knowledge). God loved you enough to sacrifice his son for the payment of your penalty. However, he is also just and not corrupt. Because he is just, he will see that justice is done. If you murdered and raped a woman and the judge sentenced you to die, you'd probably think that judge was also mean and heartless. However, he is just seeing that justice is done by carrying out what the law requires. Unless your penalty is paid, you will be punished for your crime. Whether you are sorry for what you have done (you should be), if you promise to never do it again, or you do good deeds from now on in order to try and make up for the past is of no consequence.

Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen something? Have you ever looked at another woman with lust? Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain?

If you mean by literal that I take the whole of scripture as the inspired, infallible, authoritative, and inerrant Word of God (II Timothy 3:15-17, II Peter 1:21), then yes I do. However, it is obvious that there are figurative and literal illustrations in the Bible. It’s not “what it means to me” or “what it means to you.” It’s “what it means” that’s important. That’s where hermeneutics comes into play. Context, intended audience, style, translation, purpose, etc. are very important. Do I think that hell is actually a “lake of fire?” No. I think that was just an illustration. I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable. Therefore, there is a need for some description that we might be able to relate to in our existence. . I completely agree. I struggle to do it with gentleness and respect sometimes. I have no patience and a quick temper that I try and keep subdued. However, the idea of only spreading the good news to unbelievers is not Biblical. Jesus and the Apostles never offered the good news to the proud and arrogant first. First, they were shown their exceeding sinfulness. Then, if there were signs of contrition, the path to salvation was given. Law to the proud…. Grace to the humble. Hell and judgment are spoken of many times more than just the love of God in the NT. When used lawfully, the law of the Lord is perfect in converting the soul. It is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by grace through faith. Again. I agree. Busy here too. I can’t believe I’m sitting here consumed by this stuff again on dz.com. It’s tough being a parent. I’m feeling the payback myself with 3 of my own. I believe we can have our differences on many different Biblical topics as long as our foundation is the same. As long as we agree on what’s really important. We don’t have to agree on whether hell is actually fire or not as long as we both agree that we don’t want to be there and how to avoid it.

Thank you for your opinion. I wish you well.

I don't think we're all that different. I don't think I can "convince" anyone. I, like you, can only deliver the message. Only God can convince. What can a dead man do? Nothing.

Well, that is your "educated" opinion. Those probably aren't going to start flying out my ass at the command of God either. However, "everybody's got one." Actually, it is. Your estimate is very superficial. Then again, that is your opinion (see above). Of course, Zeus has the multiple, martyr, eye-witness, prophetic, testimonial evidence in comparison. I'm sold.

I would have to be God in order to fully understand the mind of God. That is impossible. I'm not going to reject my chance at salvation b/c I don't have all the answers. That's just plain silly. I think my eternal destiny is the more important theological question.

I'm skipping around b/c it's hard to keep up with all you guys so I appologize. You're right, the 10 Commandments were given to them. However, Jesus said he didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). For those who are under the law (unbelievers), the law is very relevant and is a weight on their shoulders. It is the mirror which should show you the degree of your filthiness and need to be cleansed. It is also completely relevant to believers b/c it is the standard for righteousness even if we will not be judged by it. We strive for that standard not because we are good people but because we are bad people who have been forgiven. It is only through Jesus that we do good and make every effort to live up to God's moral standard. It is not in any way of ourselves and God gets ALL the glory.

An omnipresent god could make snapping turtles fly out of my ass....but he didn't. Your arguments are nonsensical. Who's being unreasonable?

From childhood, you’ve also seen, lived in, and experienced God’s creation. The complex painter’s signature is on everything around us. I’m sure we can both agree that we are going to die someday. Are you comfortable with your future? Do you value your life? What does it profit someone to gain the whole world and lose his/her soul? I’m trying to be reasonable but it does take faith.

Why? That's his plan. Not mine. How would I know? I'm not God.

Steve, what is a fundamentalist really? I mean, I know you've read Romans. Does not being a fundamentalist mean that you only take parts of it to be true? Sticking with what I've been talking about and not getting bogged down in some of the other points of contention regarding the Bible, do you not believe in the reality of hell, the fact that we are going to die and face judgment, the requirement of being righteous without sin to enter heaven, the complete impossibility of us accomplishing that goal with anything that we might do of ourselves (only through the grace of God), and the only path to forgiveness which is repentance (completely turning away from sin) and faith in the Saviour who paid the required penalty for our lawlessness in order that justice be done? Also, the mandate for us to spread the good news of the gospel to all people in order that they might not suffer that fate? I can think of no other message more important than that to tell everyone. Do you not believe that it is critical that people come to that realization and make a decision one way or the other before it is too late? Based on Romans, what will be their fate without God? It gets my attention. Does that make me a fundamentalist? If so, I am definitely one. How do you feel about Revelation 3:15-16? By the way... What's up bro?

There's plenty of reason to do so. However, you are correct in that it does take faith.

Sounds good to me.

The "basis" for morality does not come from a particular religion. It comes from God.

Yes. Religion is just a roadmap to a destination. Morality is written on the hearts of all people whether they follow a religion or not. Whether they choose to follow their conscience or not is a different matter.

God exacted justice on people in those days in a very real way. He is withholding judgment now giving you the opportunity to change. War was made with the Midianites because of their attempt to corrupt God's people. They were destroyed because they were exceedingly sinful in the eyes of God. Just like many others. Weeds are cut down from time to time in order to preserve and grow the wheat. The Israelites were God's chosen people.

I’ll try and be more reasonable. If you & I were on an airplane, I knew something was wrong with the engine, and that we were going to crash, would you want know about the problem so you could put your parachute on? I’m just trying to tell you that we’re going to have to jump. You are going to die and you don’t know when. I’ve got my parachute on. You don’t. You can’t just wish it all away and say that you don’t believe in the law of gravity. If you jump without your parachute, you are going to die and there is a second death after judgment lasting for eternity. I’m really not trying to preach fire & brimstone to you. If what the Bible says it true and hell is a reality (which it is), you are in big trouble. You are going to die and face judgment for every thought and deed in this lifetime. You are already guilty. Your conscience should testify to that based on your inability to live up to God’s moral law (10 Commandments) and “be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect (Matthew 5:48). God has more love for the world than you can possibly fathom. However, it is a perfecting love and not a pampering one. The cure hurts but it is absolutely necessary. Here’s another. You’ve gotten really sick. You go see the doctor. He does some tests and determines that you have cancer that, if left untreated, will be terminal. Would you rather he not tell you the problem since you’re going to die anyway and just give you some pain medication to make you feel better during the time you have left? Or would you rather him tell you, in detail, what you’re up against in order to convince you of the seriousness of your illness so that you’ll accept even a painful cure and follow through with it until you’re healed? This isn’t fire & brimstone. I’m not sitting here screaming at you that you’re going to hell without a reasonable explanation of why. I’m not trying to scare you. I’m just telling you the reality of the situation. I don’t want your money and I’m not trying to recruit you into some church denomination. I don’t even expect you to all of a sudden post in this open forum that you’ve just had some radical conversion experience or not. I’m just trying to get you to consider an important issue which concerns you personally. That’s all. You can disagree with me all day long if you want to. However, you have knowledge of the truth now. With knowledge comes accountability. The more knowledge you gain, the more accountable you become.

I don't have any idea.

And that was all we were talking about at that time.

Their fate is the same as your fate will be. However, if you go to hell, it will be because you chose that path. Your punishment will be righteous as was theirs. They were guilty of breaking the law punishable by death and so are you. If you've been angry without cause (in your life), you are seen as a murderer at heart in the eyes of God. What are you going to do when you stand in front of your creator to be judged? If God is good (and he is), he will give you justice.

Rules never changed. YOU are still under the law and will be judged accordingly.

Did you do all that research yourself? I'm impressed.

LOL you crack me up dude, how can you just simply say that the millions of deaths attributed your God are righteous indignation, why didn’t OJ use that excuse? Your God is a mass murderer you can make all the excuses you want but the fact is if God was in a court of law he would be going down.. So explain how the Midianite massacre Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ killed is righteous indignation??? And why are there not more deaths attributed to the apparently “evil” Satan… 10 is a pretty poor effort, for someone who is “pure evil”…… Come on Paj come back to the real world, its not that scary..... God's not on trial. You are. Are you guilty?

It's called righteous indignation. Certainly NOT without cause. Your conscience should attest to that. The deaths of all mentioned is the same death you deserve for your lawlessness and rebellion. What will you do?