Ron

I also would like to know who you are talking to? As soon as you think your a big dog.....a bigger dog bites you. Its why I don't talk shit anymore. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I never said it was to MAKE sunset loads safer....I DID say that if you HAVE done them sunset loads ARE safer. Different thing. Never said that either....In my personal opinion. You should have to have a PRO rating for ANY DEMO....It is not that hard to get a PRO. And unless you have that level of experience, I don't want anyone doing them. I never said this either....I think its a stupid reason as well. I never said this, and it sounds like BS to me as well. What I will say (and this is not aimed at you since you have done them)...Is people shut up, and stop bitching about the night jump requirment. Either do them to get your "D" or stop bitching about having to do them to get it. Keep the "C" and be happy. Do I think they are needed ....Nope, but USPA does. And as long as they say they are needed, stop trying to change the rules so you can have it your way. A lot of things in life don't make sense.... Why did I pay taxes while I was in the military???? Why do we drive on parkways, and park on driveways? Why do they Interstate Highways in Hawaii? These questions will never be answered. But you know what? Who cares? Follow the rules or don't. Why do you have to do 2 night jumps to get the "D"? Because USPA said so. Don't like it? Don't get a "D". Or start your own orginazation and make the rules the way you want them to be. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes I do read what your write. The "D" is the highest license that the USPA has. Until you get it (and even after) you are being (I hope) watched by the S&TA's, I's, exp. jumpers ect. I do it all the time. But the issue is not "sunset loads" the issue is people don't want to do what the USPA says is needed to have the "D" license. The sunset load issue only came up when the people who want a "D" with out the night jumps said that you will never jump at night unless you want to. As far as I know there really is not an issue with A,B,C jumpers on sunset loads. But it was brought up to show that night jumps CAN have use. As for being a bad way to do it....What do you think would be better?...I'm listening here. And the nights jumps are required for the "D" the LAST license. Vaid point. But it does not change the issue that night jumps ARE required by the USPA. And I think you would agree that the can be done safely, and that they are valuable. But again I ask...At what point do you think they should be done? B. Qualifications 1. Skydivers participating in night jumping should possess a currently valid USPA B or higher license. This says that all you need to DO a night jump is a "B". So you only need 50 jumps to start doing night jumps. Anything before 50 I don't think that the jumper has enough basic knowledge to be safe. So you can DO them after 50 jumps....You don't have to wait till you have 200. So if you do them at 50....then you can be safer on sunset jumps right? But the issue is people just don't want to do them. Fine, then don't. But don't bitch about it...Just take your "C" in hand and drive on with your life. No, I do listen. But give me some other options, other than to remove the requirments. You want to make people do them at 50 jumps? Fine with me. That would make "sunset" jumps safer. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And what "Relevant" thing did I leave out?????? Training is training.....Skydiving is not a complicated sport to grasp.... Jump, Pull, don't kill yourself on landing. If you miss one of these 3 simple things, well you have a larger problem. I know EVERY student has been told to STOP THE SKYDIVE! But some people don't execute that plan....And some people should not be skydiving. A CYPRES fire is a very public way of displaying your lack of understanding of the basic skydiving skills. How is this hard to grasp? And the point is that "knocked out" skydivers happen very little as compared to the other things that cause a CYPRES fire. And that almost ALL fatalities, CYPRES fires, Accidents ect are all nothing more than SOMEONE screwing up. If you want a cool toy that in the case of you doing something stupid, will keep you from dying....Great! I don't like divits on my DZ. I have a CYPRES, and have seen many divits.... But I don't lie and say I have it incase I am knocked out... I have it incase I do something stupid that should have killed me. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My Merlin suit fell apart. My other 3 teammates Merlin suits fell apart. A 4way team with 4 Suits that fell apart????? We do alot of tunnel, but my Michagan has more tunnel time on it than my Merlin does. I don't have a problem with having a problem with suits considering how much abuse I put on them....But when my teammates zipper blew out the week before Natl's and mine blew out right after. And both suits had 50 jumps on them? Then I had my suit sent back to Merlin,and she was going to charge me full price to fix what I saw as bad materials. Shame too, because the suit flew well. ALL of our knee seams are ripping, and one guys ass seam split. On the other hand Mike Michagan has GREAT customer service...I know of several people that had problems, and he FLEW in his Cessna 150 to Zhills to look at the suits. Took them back and sent them back fixed, free in less than a week. I am going with Michagan, or maybe Bev....But I am so impressed with Michagan's suits. Bev suits would have to be VERY good. But I have never had one, and I have an open mind. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Logic as in what? That it will never happen, and there is no need for the requirement? Well I think this poll has shown that there are times that people WILL exit the aircraft and land in what many would consider to be "Night" conditions even if it is not the FAA's definition of night. I would rather have people have some level of experience before it happens on "Accident" And that you need to have some level of experiance before you do a night jump. That is why we don't make students do it. No,it will not stop people from getting on the "Accidental" or unplanned night jumps. I think it is needed. Some don't see the need for "hood" flying for a private pilot. I only fly on nice days, so why should I have any Instrument training? But it is required, so I did it. I did not bitch about it, and try to get around it. The fact is it is required...just do it, or keep your "C". If you must get a "D" apply for the restricted "D". There are paths to take other than just bitching, and trying to get the rule changed. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Travis...You are wrong. Students do not need an elliptical wing. Period. They have to worry about so much stuff, I ma not planning on adding a twitchy opening, twitchy flying canopy....At least not until they have the basics down... You can teach a person all day long. But the only thing that will make a person safe is experience. Students don't have any..... Just like you don't teach headdown on level 2....You should not be giving students elliptical canopies. They will grow into them, and when they are ready for them. THEN give them one. I base this of off almost 10 years...and 7 years teaching students. And FWIW...I like small canopies. I just don't like students, or even beginers on them...Its not safe. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

How about this argument: If you want the highest License that the USPA has...You have to do what the USPA says to get it. If I could not land my airplane at night...The FAA would not give me a license. If I didn't have a cutaway I could not get a Strong Tandem rating. If my video person does not get my teams exit I don't get the point. Life is not fair. But instead of bitching, and trying to get the rules changed to fit them, these people could just do the jumps, or be happy with having a C forever.... Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

NSL = National Skydiving League Its a series of 4way competitions. Check out www.skyleague.com Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There are several DZ's around TPA. Zhills is the closest they have 5 otters and a porter, a new larger swoop pond, and me Lake Wales is about an hr away, and at last check had an otter, and a CASA. There is a DZ in Wachula that is open Sundays only, but they sometimes do beach jumps. DeLand is about 1.5ish hrs away. Wiliston is around 2hrs north. I hear they have, or are getting a Caravan. I'd go to Zhills. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well yes it makes sense.... A person with a A or less is still just trying to survive. A night jump would waste them...they would have a low probability of success. Besides night jumps DO make dusk jumps safer..... Debate that. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Wow thats two cool sayings from this thread.... Damn thats neat. But use away...... Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So the Cobalt is perfect for beginers...If they have a problem its the fact they don't load it enough..(OK that makes zero sense.) It is the best swooping canopy...able to compare to the X-braced designs. AH....I have jumped the Cobalt 105...and it did not out swoop the Velocity 111. It opens the best. (except the one I jumped that slammed the shit out of me, Oh, but thats because I jumped the pilot chute that I jumped with my 107 Stiletto...that worked great with that canopy...but was to big for the Cobalt?) It seems that your Ad's...Er, I mean posts say that it is the best canopy in the history of the world. And that you can jump it from AFF level 1 to 10,000 jumps. Ah, I call Bull Shit here. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is no bigger fuck up than to stop trying to live, and start trusting a neat $1,000.00 gizmo. If you can't realise that simple fact....You might want to stop and think about it. There is ONE thing to do skydiving...that is to live....This requires that when someone throws a large planet at you, you respond by throwing a pilot chute. All the other things in skydiving are a FAR second to surviving. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well the major differance is that with hook turns you can screw up and not DIE...yes you can die, but I ahve hooked it in (Didn't brake, but damn that hurt). But if you are saved by a CYPRES you should be dead. This sport is not for everyone...If you get saved by the cool box...It may not be for you. Just think about it....And yes, I know people that rethink hook turns after smacking in. But the basic theme of skydiving is to not hit the ground without a canopy open. If you can't do this....Well Im done here. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

use it...have fun. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey, I am all about having one to save your ass.... But when you have a fire...You REALLY need to look at if this sport is for you. Unless you are in the 5% of the "saves" that were incapacitated, you really screwed up big. And the FACTS show that MOST of the people who were "saved" just flat out did something stupid. 12 people were "knocked out" out of 239 So to say "I want on incase I am knocked out"....Well, it is a lot more realistic to say "I want one incase I screw up". I am glad that these 239 people lived....I just wonder if they should be jumping.... The #1 thing is to be safe...And 227 people failed at that. I have one in case I do something stupid, and should have died. I don't really think I will be knocked out....The numbers don't show it. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'll be at the NSL on Sat...and I live in Zhills Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, because the TRAINING, and the EXPERIENCE that can be gained BY DOING THEM...can help if you are in that position. Why does the FAA make it so you have to be current at NIGHT to take passengers if you are current during the day? Because it is different. Training only helps teach...you need to DO them to know you can, and to know what can happen. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

From the Cypres saves page from PIA. Till June 2001. 239 documented "Saves" 7 were collisions. 2.9% 2 were jumpers exiting the A/C and getting knocked out. 0.8% 2 were 2 jumpers getting BOTH shoulders dislocated. 0.8% 1 was a student that spun until blackout. 0.4% 12 Real Saves 5% 10 from being unconcious. 4.1% 2 from shoulder injury 0.8% 12 out of 239 "Saves".....That leaves 227 to "Screwed up big". See? more "saves" to stupidity than getting knocked out. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, what I AM saying is that people who say "I have it incase I am knocked out" are using a lame excuse. The actual chances of being "saved" due to being knocked outis VERY low....has it happend? Yes. Would there be some people who DID get knocked out around if they had them? Yes. But again MOST CYPRES "SAVES" are from the jumper doing something STUPID! Not being knocked out. This jumper did something stupid....he was awake. The "I have it incase I get knocked out" Argument is lame. I bet it is NOT why most people get them. I for one, have it incase I do something remarkably STUPID. Which CAN include putting myself into a situation where I COULD be knocked out..... But I am done with this.... Its a device that CAN save you if you are knocked out....But in all probability it will most likely be used to save you after you make some very large mistake...which can include putting yourself into a position that COULD knock you out. Or in this case bad packing and just not getting to the reserve in time. What is so hard to understand about that? Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I got my info from a picture from there...It could be wrong. But it had those I said with a caption "GK 8Way team". Oh well sorry then. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have to define *experienced* 100 jumps? 1000? 10,000? This guy was not *experienced* with a pillow reserve. Why? Did he pack it wrong? If so was he *experienced*? So the real story here is: A guy just got a new rig.. He packed a malfuction with his pilot chute. He just changed from a Metal handle to a pillow, and was not able to find the handle to save his own life. Thank God he had a cool toy that managed to save his life when he could not. If he had PACKED correctly...no problem here, and no story. If he had PRACTICED the new procedures with the soft handle....No problem, and no story. I am glad he lived....but he should not have, and it should be noticed that he should have died. Other than buying a cool black box this jumper did nothing to ensure his future existance. Simple as that. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This would be exactly what I am talking about. this would be a yes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope still a lame argument. I wear one beacause shit happens....I don't preach the people getting knocked out story. I think they are great things.... But most "saves" are from negligence, not being unconsious. I just wish people would be truthful... A better statment would be "I have an AAD because shit happens, and I would rather not die even if I fuck up." I see no problem with that....Just don't rely on the damn thing. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334