Ron

I have loaded a square at 1.8....It was fine. Now I am in FL, and not at a high elevation. But it can and has been done quite safely. You bring up good points about density altitude...But it effects ALL canopies. Yes a Xbraced, or airlocked would be BETTER at a hugh wingload...But his question was square vs elliptical. Since both are non goodie canopies thay would both be about the same level af saftey at the same wingloads. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thats cool...I think I am going to let mine lapse this year though...I have not used it in almost two years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When this one starts to fade I am going to post that as a poll... Maybe I should have done them opposite. Who has lost someone, then who has seen someone go? But its to late now. I am just trying to see if what we always say is true... I personally think it is. But I am surprised by how close to 50/50 it is. Now I know that some have misread it and answered yes when they were not on the DZ... And worse I feel that some have answered yes to try and be "cool"....I have seen it before. There is a fatality at the DZ, and a guy asks me what happened since he was not there. The later I see him telling someone else what happened...And sure enough they claim to have seen it. That really fucking kills me. But my point is as I think Kevin wrote on the wreck...This sport is NOT safe. Never will be due to the nature of it. And like he said look around...In a few years you will not be seeing one or more of them. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If I remember right he was test jumping something....but I can't say what it was. Super secret squirel stuff ya know. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have been told by some that he went into help and got entangled with the lines....That he could not get away if he wanted to, and that he deployed because there was not anything left to do. But either way, be careful if you assist.... And if the drouge is out, pull the main. I don't like the chances of the reserve having to get past the drouge. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its not ludicrous...it is a FACT. Now the chances of it killing you is VERY low...But it has happened. This is why I choose to not jump with an RSL, or a Skyboard, or a tube...ect. I limit my chances of a gear problem and rely more on myself. That is not ludicrous...Its a personal choice made from faith in myself, and a distrust of ANY piece of equipment that when working and used correctly CAN cause a problem. We are clearly not going to agree...which is fine. But why do you not wear one? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OH...yeah and be VERY careful. There was a fatality where the camera guy came in to help out and ended up getting tangled with the Tandem pair...He bounced right with them. But I would pull them out. And I would hope my video guy would pull me out. I would do it for a solo guy that is knocked out...Although I would just pull his reserve...With a drouge out I would pull the release...with out the reserve. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its JC Perren a tandem instructor at Zhills and a SunPath Employee. It is a weight sack that is used to let jumpers jump a tandem without a passenger. It is also used to allow them to test jump things like the military Javelin with high loads. If you look you can see where he can drop the weight if he has to. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well the question says "Have you seen someone die" But if you were on the DZ I can take that....But I don't want things like "Well this guy Bob I meet once bounced at a boogie in China". So only Deaths you have been at the DZ for...And I wrote that in the first post. But I am sure several have already said yes even though they have never been at the DZ. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A square would fly fine at a higher wingload. It would not be anymore dangerous to fly a Sabre at 1.8 than a Stiletto. But most people who have the experience to fly at these wingloads find that the elliptical performs better over all Wingloads, so they jump an elliptical. An elliptical at a low wingload is not less safe than at a high wingload....In fact a higher wingload is worse for tine twists. Any canopy at a light wingload will have the same type of problems... Planform Elliptical vs. Square is about performance at any wingload....Wingload effects both types about the same (with the exception of line twist on a highly load elliptical). Its not about insane...Most that can fly a high wingload just want to fly elliptical. And most that should be jumping a low wingload should not be on an elliptical either. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Which seems to support the theory that most will see someone die. Most people personally KNOW someone that has died. Of course some of these didn't really read the question...I am sure some have known someone to die and they answered "yes"...But that is my next poll here..I will wait for this one to slow down before I post the next one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

look Herefor that info. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I realize that this is not a popular topic, but we often say "If you are in this sport awhile you WILL see someone die." So I was wondering if this is true. And it might be a wake up for some people. Only count fatalities that you have been on the DZ for. For me..Yes Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Is this really common? I have never seen this. But the winds in Perris can really cook, so maybe it is common. Really...Is it common? I don't know, I don't use an RSL...But I am interested in this "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Zen...say it aint so!!! Oh my favorite Wing loading and egos. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I had complete grasp of the situation....If I freaked out..I would have been a small dent in the planet. If you are so worried about going low...chances are that if you get there and don't have a DRILLED plan on how to deal with it, you will flip out, and become your own piece of the planet. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would, and do count them....You left an aircraft in flight. Used a parachute to survive. I count them. However USPA does not. The only time this becomes an issue in my book is before you have the "D" license...I would not count them for license #'s...But I would count them for awards. All of this is my opinion...USPA says no. But do you keep a logbook for the USPA, or yourself? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

According to the USPA...S/L military jumps DO NOT COUNT. A loggable jump has to be in accordance with the BSR's. An 800 foot exit is NOT in accordance with the BSR's. There is no AAD, or RSL. The Jumpmaster most likely is not USPA rated...ect, ect. So no, the USPA DOES NOT count Military SL jumps.... Now I have 34 military jumps...They are in my logbook. USPA is not God. Count the jumps. Just don't count them for a license or award. (Or do..I don't care). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't know anyone that has a firebolt (that was not given it). But my point is that very few people buy a hybrid for their PRIMARY canopy. They really never caught on. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It seems it still CAN happen..I don't know how, but it did. Lets not let this get into a PUD/Pullout debate... Both have issues, and both have benefits. Yes a PUD should not have a PC in tow, but a lost PUD is something a BOC will not have. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'll look for it...I think I know where it is...But I am not tech savy enough to post it... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A damn fine example...Im stealing it. This is true ground rush... Another type of ground rush can be when you come out of a cloud or just look down and the ground is A LOT bigger than you though it should be. This is like when you are driving, and look down at the radio just to look up and see the really fast comming bumper of the car in front of you that hit his brakes while you put in a CD. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I personally don't think its just the CYPRES. But its the people who do jump now that never would without things like the CYPRES. Being low is not something to be afraid of....Being afraid of going low IS something to be afraid of. But thats a different story. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

At least you were getting safer! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334