Ron

Get a metal one. I have not used it but then I have not used my CYPRES yet either, and I still have one. I see very few problems with having one, and I know of a few things that it COULD help with. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know of several AFF students that skipped levels. My 4th freefall after SL was an 8way....After that I was off "Student status". Jump 12 was on my own rig without an RSL or AAD. It happens. Using this logic...even a recomended WL would be used against us. Facts are....We can't continue to do nothing about it. People are getting canopies thay have no buissness under. People are taking these canopies and killing themselves. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Such as by limiting what you can do until you have shown that you can handle it? I don't agree here. We make people do things in AFF. We make them do two night jumps to get a "D". (I am sure that someone has gotten hurt doing these, but I have yet to see the USPA sued over it.) Making it manditory DOES NOT take away the indviduals responsibliity...It DOES make them follow a program and not just do as they please. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So your whole problem is with the law.... I don't care about that. I do care that we prevent more fatalities. Don't you think a lawyer can see that we are not doing anything about an issue and use our lack of doing anything as not caring???? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

All of FL is sand....unless its water. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, my 3rd freefall was a two way, and my 4th was an 8way. No exagerating there. And this was with NO tunnel time. And I am not about holding people back...I am ALL about making people PROVE they are ready to move forward. Its not your right to jump whatever you want...It is earned. Just like its not your right to go Freeflying on AFF #1, or drive at 13....Hell I am willing to let you jump whatever you want....But only after you PROVE you are ready. Under my ideas, you could progress just as fast if you were that good, AND safer. I just wil not let anyone jump anything they want...Unless they can PROVE they are ready. So you could have 100 jumps with a 1.7 if you can PROVE you can handle it. What the hell is wrong with making someone PROVE they are ready? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When you say "cookie Cutter" you mean like AFF? SL? AFP? The tests needed to get a drivers license? Or a pilots license? What if I told you I was ready to do RW on my 3rd freefall? But I had to wait till I was off student status/ Or I was ready to test for my pilots license at 10hrs, but I had to wait till I got 40 hrs. (and spent most of the rest of the time learning Acro,a nd flying taildraggers)... But I still had to wait. I didn't feel "held back". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know some people that would have never learned AFF or SL. They neede to rely on the Tandem I for three jumps first. One of these people still scares the hell out of me. Will not jump without an RSL or AAD at all. Does not know how to pack or spot. She would have never been jumping without the Tandem program...she told me this. Even since then I have seen a problem with this type of program..... But with AFF they are also told that they could be on their own to save their own life...with Tandem that will not ever happen. This was also told to me by my martial arts teacher...so I don't think it is a "Roger Original". The only big difference is that in my program...The student has no one else to rely on. (Except the Tandem...but thats what Tandems are for.) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I can see why its better for the Drop Zone. Thats very clear. However I still stand by the fact that it is a program that fosters dependence. And that it takes less nerve to do a Tandem than an AFF or a S/L. And I think that there are people that would never jump without the Tandem program....I personally don't think its a bad thing that people who would not trust themselves don't skydive. I willgrant you the fact thats its better for the DZ, but I don't think its a better method of instruction. All of the good points you had also work for AFF and S/L. I have a S/L I, a Tandem I. I have been teaching S/L since 1994. The perfect progression in my own little world is: 1 Tandem...That way they can just do one jump and never come back if they like, or they can learn a little about body position. 5 S/L to teach the most important part of skydiving PULL. 2 Hop N Pops to instill confidence. 7 AFF type jumps. a whole slew of coaching to include wind tunnel. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh I am gonna catch shit for this....... I think Tandem progression is for people who are scared to jump on their own. I don't think skydiving is for everyone, and I don't think it should be. I personally think that if you have to have someone hold your hand to jump....That its not for you. But then again, I am the jerk that thinks you should have to actually be able to pack.....Spot.....not be afraid to jump without an AAD....Actually do the damn night jumps, or don't get a "D", and not whine about it.... So my opinions are not popular with todays "I want it my way" group of skydivers. Still Its one reason I like SL....It is all about you. No one to lean on. AFF is probley a better method of instruction, but SL has some things over it (This is for another thread....search and you will find like 1000 on it.) But I think the tandem progression is for people that are too scared to actually trust themselves to jump. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Damn Rhino...we agree on something. Lets try not to let this happen again! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If your landings require luck....you have large issues. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Elsinore is planned to get a tunnel. VS1 I think it is. It is supposed to be built from the same company that built the Bragg Tunnel. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We had guys from the Navy in with us. But they were memebers of the SOCOM team. You just can't walk up with a boogie suit and a ID card. You have to be a member of a team that has the tunnel, or have a reason to strap hang. The Airspeed guys had the tunnel also this week...But they are the US team. So you can join up, and know the right people, or become the US team....Both are a lot more work....It's better to just fly to Orlando and pay. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was at Bragg for three years. In that time I was invited in a few times with the GK's. I went twice at GK tryouts. I managed to sneak in a few times at lunch. (I was only able to do this since I had been there so much...Just showing up with a jumpsuit and an ID card will get you shown to the outside door.) I was on the 82nd Demo team and we got the tunnel a few times. The Green Beret team would get the tunnel, and I would help them with students, and the HALO challange course folks. This time I went as a coach to the SOCOM boys. You basicly have to be at Bragg, and be seen enough...Then you stap hang with a group. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, what ridiculous is when you can get a guy with 100 jumps thinking he can handle a 1.4 loaded canopy without any idea of what it takes. And its ridiculous to think just because you have not died under the canopy you have now is an indication that you know what you are doing. The PRO rating is not that hard. And if you can't do it, then you could always downsize according to the rules we have proposed about a hundred times. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

3 years of your life "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

SkyVenture 12 feet across. Bragg 14 feet. SkyVenture 5 (160 HP?) Some are planned for 200HP. Bragg two 25,000 HP (only one runs at a time). SkyVenture has two doors. Bragg is open all the way around the air collum. SkyVenture 2 Million Bragg 12 millon SkyVenture 600.00/Hr Bragg at least 2 years of your life, and you have to be lucky. SkyVenture is 600.00 an HR. Bragg "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well just got back from 30 hrs at the Bragg tunnel. If you have never been there....WOW. If you want to go try calling 1 800 USA-Army. We were able to do all the 4 way blocks (with some cheating). SkyVenture is cool, but the Bragg tunnel is amazing. (Not bad for 12 million). If the Elsinore tunnel is like this one it will be amazing. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But do you see how being the first was not the best thing? I bet the newer rigs have better plastic and its long enough. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe, but I like to be in my landing configuration befpre I hit my cut away altitude....I would hate to loose a toggle right before the hook. But to each his own. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry not ment that way. It was ment to say, that don't be the one guy on the DZ with something different. I have had a few people come up to me and ask me about buying a Nova...They say "Hey Ron, a guy offored to sell me a canopy for a great deal! like 500 bucks!" I ask "What kind?" They say "I don't know, but I have not heard the name before.....I think its a Nova?" Me "Run like hell from it" Now I don't think the Infinity is a bad container. I have jumped them, and they were nice. But for the reasons I said earlier...I will not buy one. I want my rigger to know my type of rig...I want to be able to get a reserve PC if I loose mine.....I want to know of problem as soon as possible. But if you want to get some other rig have fun. I knew a guy that jumped a rig from England...He had it BECAUSE it was different. When he lost the Reserve PC after a mal, he had to wait 3 weeks to geta new one. I lost a reserve PC on my Vector, and had my rig packed in 2 hrs. Like you said not every rig is for everyone. And to be honest if I were in WA. I might be jumping an Infinity. But I'm not, so I don't. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Today, but not 15 years ago. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ok well you missed the whole loose something and you can find a part. And another thing....I like the fact that my rigger packs hundreds of Vectors a year.....She only packs a few Infinitys....Now any rigger should be able to pack any rig. But I like the fact that mine does so many of my type of rig. I am going to give you a product...Ask people about it. Nova. Find out why they don't jump them much anymore. Never be the first on the block with a new toy. Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would say that freefall advice is seen as performance tips, and canopy is considered saftey tips. However, even when I approach someone from the "performance" side...they still think they know better than me. Here is a little hint...If a guy on the ground says you had to dig out of the corner, and were not smooth on the toggles...chances are he is correct..He saw it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334