Ron

Well the problem is you have to take a sample for somewhere..Which is why I told you to ask the guys at your DZ...Do it independantly of me. Go ahead. Find out if more jumps are mad at your DZ from guys with over 1,000 jumps, or guys with 200-300. I would really like to know what you find. As for my experience here in FL....More jumps are made by guys that have over 1,000 jumps. It is almost impossible to swing a dead cat and not hit a guy with 1,000 jumps down here. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I don't consider myself an expert...I know experts and I am not one of them. The USPA DID change it...I don't know when. It was just a jab at you Doc. But I know that since I'm not an expert...I really have to doubt a guy with 300 jumps is. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I agree..I have said several times that most jumpers don't need a Xbraced canopy...Just like most drivers don't need a Ferrari. You WANT a Xbraced canopy, just like you want a Ferrari. But most jumpers don't do enough jumps to be current enough to jump a cutting edge canopy. But nothing is stopping them, and their ego says "Jump the cool canopy". As long as they think that way, and as long as they can get those canopies...People will die. Its funny to see how folks don't think of a Stiletto as a HP canopy...It stil is, and it still takes the same amount of advanced skill to fly it safely. But its no longer "cool" so you need a X braced canopy. Not eveyone should have the cutting edge. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its still a fact that they do more jumps than most people, and that AFF I's do more jumps in a week than you even have. But they are not pounding in left and right? But guys with 250 jumps are. It is very possible that most of the jumps in the US are made by people with over 1,000 jumps. They are the PROs. I have several friends with over 1,000 jumps....I mean A LOT. Some of my friends make over 800-1000 jumps every YEAR. You can quote what ever you like. I may not be able to prove I am right, but you can't prove I am not right about this either. You jump at Chicago....Run around and ask the guys with over 1,000 jumps how many they make a year...Then ask the guys with 250....Let me know what you find.. Or would you call that some cool name to just to try and discredit it? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Mine says "Expert" on it...I can show it to you if ya like. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Or bring a chopper BTW I will want to pick your brain about them when you come down. I agree, but all I want to see is a basic regulation to make people get training...But that lets them progress (slower) without training if they can't afford/can't find that training. It would also let them progrss faster if they were really that good. I compare it to flying...A Private pilot needs a taildragger, complex and HP endorsement to fly those types of planes. I htink we should have a HP canopy endorsement. It fits and would help. The only way to make that happen is if the USPA makes it a BSR. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Getting ALL the DZ's to MAKE all the jumpers attend these classes would be impossible. Remember the ones that really need these classes, don't think they need them. Like I said the ISP sounded easy, but the USPA can't even get DZ's to do it. And it took them YEARS to fiqure it out. Also not everyone is you, and not all DZ's will do it. So unless the USPA makes it manditory then you have nothing. And like I said the ones that NEED this info...Will not attend. I was at a seminar with Leblanc at one time...I went with a bunch of wannabe hotshot canopy pilots...as soon as they found out they were not really going to get just swooping info..They left. How do you make them learn? You can't. But you CAN limit the choices they make till they know better, or they prove themselves. And its not that hard to implement restrictions...Other organizations have already done it...The USPA has already done it many times...Pull altitudes are an example. The fact is only education will fix the problem...But the jumpers in question need to realize that then NEED it first. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just cause its an assumption does not make it wrong. Here is some stuff for ya. Airspeed. 9 Members X 1,000 jumps = 9,000 jumps GK 9 X 1,000 jumps = 9,000 Majik 5 X 500 = 2500. Just from skydive city. 735 AFF jumps at least one JM on each jump. However most are AFF1 with 2 JM...but we will use the smaller number. = 735 So just last year Airspeed, Majic, GK, and the AFF guys at ZHills alone did 21235 jumps. Not one ended in a death, much less a canopy death. With just those numbers it would take 84.9 people doing 250 jumps to equal just those 3 teams and one DZ of AFF in one year. Plus your data only includes those with around 250 jumps...That could also include those that did NO jumps that year, but HAD 250 jumps. I still think that for total number of jumps made a year that more are made by those with over 1,000 jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Plus what other pilot ratings? And how long have you been involved with aviation? Oh yeah what do you do for a living? You are NOT the typical student John. BTW when are you comming down and are you bringing any RC stuff? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Very good point. The laws of physics have not changed since the Stiletto was introduced over 10 years ago. It is just the simple fact that even more advanced canopies have been introduced that make the Stiletto SEEM less HP....A 1986 Porshe 911 is still a HP car. Even if a 2004 Ferrari is faster...I don't want a teenager driving either. Like I siad good point. Another is simply this...The PROS jump Velocities...They do 1,000 jumps a year. MOST people don't need that kind of performance...They just want it. But a simple fact is if you only do 100-200 jumps a year, you are not current enough to be jumping the cutting edge of gear. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't agree...I think they would be MUCH easier to establish WL restrictions than a new training program. Look how poorly the ISP has been handled. The USPA could very easily say "You will not jump an elliptical till you have a "D". And you will not pass this wingload chart.....unles you pass this test." To place an new method of instruction they would have to do MUCH more work. This is why I favor regulations that can be tested out of if you can prove you have the skill. But in the mean time we would stop the blood loss until we could improve the training programs... Make no mistake, I think education is THE answer...However we don't know really the best way to create that course yet, and how to make it so the people take it. Regulations would stop the stupid stuff from happening (Like a guy with 300 jumps and a 1.8 Xbraced canopy). Until we could establish a good education program and make sure it is avalible to everyone. Like I said just look at the mess the USPA did with the ISP. Regulation is also not out of line with the charter of the USPA and it is also not a new concept to the USPA...Look at all the BSR's. Plus there is a precident when you look at other national organizations and their regualtions. Why is it that the USPA the largest skydiving organization is not doing anything about a major problem that other organizations were able to see and do something about? Cause the USPA is lazy and very ineffectve. The USPA is more concerned with its new building and a museum than ensuring the saftey of its members. 11 Deaths last year....the number 1 cause of fatalities and still the USPA does nothing. The ISP is a good step, but they can't even make the member DZ's do it. And it targets the wrong group anyway. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bill I have to disagee on this part Its not an assumption...Its a fact. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your poll choices are not good. Size is not as important as planeform and WL. A Stiletto 170 in NOT a good novice canopy. A Sabre 2 might be if the WL is around 1 to 1. Yep, its not the perfect day, in perfect conditions...It's the last min "oh Shit" move that kills most people. You can't really train those, and the best you can do is train the correct procedures and hope they kick in automaticly when the shit hits the fan. Depends on training, WL, planeform, MSL, knowledge and experience. If they have had good training..Such as SDC's programs maybe it's not such an issue. It makes a big difference if it is a Sabre or a Stiletto. Density Altitude is a BIG factor...A 150 in FL. flies better than a 150 in AZ. or CO. A comercial rated pilot will do better than some guy off the street. Given the choice, I would rather have the newbie under a bigger than need canopy than a smaller than they can handle canopy. It will let them live long enough to get the experience to jump a smaller canopy tomorrow. "You can jump a smaller canopy tomorrow, if you live under the canopy you have today." "Dying makes downsizing really hard." Your opinion is kind of jaded..You learned at SDC which by most accounts has the most progressive canopy program in the US. How many other DZ's have you jumped at around students? Me: 3,000+ jumps, SL and Tandem instructor. Learned SL over 10 years ago. I have a PRO rating with over 100 live Demos. Jumps on everything from rounds to Xbraced 69sf pocket canopies. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

that quote is fucking awesome. My buddies told me to get a St97 at 350 jumps...This was back int he day when it took two waivers to get that canopy. I got a call from PD and we talked for about 30 min. They finally said they would LET me buy a 107...I instead got a 120. My friends gave me a rash of shit about it...But I didn';t care...And I hooked the 120 in on the third jump. Im glad I was not on the 97 when I hit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No not really. It is ONE indication that you are ok, but not the only indication. If I only jump at one DZ and never have had a bad spot...I might be able to never have a problem. If you can do all of Bills famous list..THAT is a good indication that you can fly a canopy. I know several jumpers that don't stand up landings...One of them has 5,000 jumps and is an expert at CRW...He can really fly a canopy. He just does not stand them up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have to say I tried the Vertical with the centers crossing first on Wagga Wagga...I kinda liked it. Not as much as the "standard" way, but if I had a team that was having problems with the standard one, and was to good for the cogg... It would be worth a look. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Hey I didn't call you big and boat like...I called your canopy big and boat like. Besides....I hear you are so fat that you load it up well anyway . Now THAT was a personal attack. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Which is probably a good WL.. And you will be under a square which is good also. Thats the dangerous thing... Nope, but student canopies are there to keep you alive...A 1.1 wingload is not THAT bad for a guy with 20-30 jumps...I however did around 300 on a 0.7 WL back in the day. And when I got my cool and groovy Stiletto...I hooked that fucker in on jump #3. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I like this idea myself. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I would venture to say that folks with over 1000 jumps do more jumps per year than guys with 300. So the guys over 1,000 jumps have more possible occurrences. And just to step into another realm that you and I both know...Flying. You can't just get a private ticket and hop into a Bonanza...Or a Pitts special. There are sign offs from the FAA, and insurance restrictions that prevent that in most cases. If the FAA makes you get an endorsements to fly something high performance....Why not have one from the USPA for the same thing? And it interesting to note that the FAA put those endorsments in place cause people without training were just hopping into HP aircraft and getting killed...The same thing that is happening here. Hell if you issue is just jump #..Give it to everyone that wants to jump a high WL.......I know I'll pass it. And if I can't then I have no business on that canopy. But there should be some gradient that takes into account the lessons that experience will teach you. Thats why I like the Germain WL chart. You can progress at a normalized pace withut jumping through hoops...But if you think you are more skilled and can prove it, you can progress faster. How is any of this a bad idea? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I found some of your posts funny. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry 600 jumps, I thought it was 500. Most had a wingload around 1.5. In the plan I wanted to put in place you would need either 500 jumps or pass a test to be allowed to jump that wingload. It is not a perfect fix..The perfect fix is for everyone to seek the knowledge and skills to be able to handle those kinds of wingloads before they jump them...However right now almost anyone can jump almost any wingload at anytime.... Thats not good. Hell I don't like regulation, but sometimes it just makes sense. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Arnold Palmer said "It's funny, the more I practice the luckier I get". Luck favors the prepared. If this Jan had not been that good. He might have been toast. It will not hurt. The greater number of injured and dead jumpers are not guys with 1000 jumps. I think last year there was 1 maybe two with over 500 jumps. Regulations, tests and a good infusion of common sense is something. Yes, I would agree...I also would rather do something about it, than do nothing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'd really like to know where in that post I pissd him off...Hell I got a PM about the post he replied to telling me to stop being a wuss. What up monkey? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I would say they are going to fast as well. And if you read my posts you will see that I said ANYBODY...And Chuck said the same thing, and Bill...But I'm a dick? Funny. Not just me, but a lot of others think the same way...Like I said not many people need to be under the uber performance canopies...They just THINK they need to be under them. You are no different than the rest. Or me for that matter...I jump a ST107 could I jump a Velocity?...Yep, but I don't need to and I don't have the giant EGO that makes it so I feel I need to. I really could not care what you think. Your ego is hurt since I said you have not "MAXED OUT" your canopy like you think you have. That does not make me a dick...It makes you wrong, but it does not make me a dick. Well I do have a lot more knowledge than you do. Just like you have more knowledge than a guy in a first jump course. Same thing really..I bet you think a guy that just finished AFF1 saying he felt his stomach drop when "The canopy opened and then went up".. Or other such nonsense...Kinda like the nonsense you just said about "I have MAXED OUT my canopy". No, you are less expereinced than me...That does not make you less of a person to me. But your EGO got hurt when I told you you didn't MAX out your canopy yet. Think about this...If I didn't care about you, why would I even bother? Where did I say I could do that????? Maybe I could. I would be willing to bet you are a better freeflier than I am. I really suck at freeflying... Again other than the personal attack on me.... Where in this did I piss in your corn flakes? I would REALLY like to know what it was I said that pissed you off enough to call me a Dick? Cause I aint seeing it. I mean I'd really like to know...I really tried to not piss in anyones corn flakes on this one...Call it a kinder Gentler me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334