Ron

Depends..... I most likley will try to make the DZ if I can. My reasons: 1. The safest place to land is on target. Given the choice, I land where I know the terrain and obstacals. 2. If you land with a guy that is hurt..what are you gonna do? If you don't have medical training you could make the situation much worse. 3. If they guy is hurt...Is it better to have a guy with no training trying to help, or have the guy land on the DZ and send people to help him? So if I can make the DZ I do. And I send someone to get him or I go get him myself. Now there are plenty of times I land out with people...But the best plan in my opinion is locate the jumper and his gear and land on the DZ and dispatch help. There have been accidents where people tried to land out to help people. My team had a plan. If one jumper has a mal...One person follows the jumper down..the others look for the gear and try to make the DZ and send help. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Pre-Hyptnotized Peter "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This from a guy that can't buy beer....Jeeze. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

which one is you? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh I don't think so. Besides not many people really need to be in Open. There are not that many PRO teams....And that is fact. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

26,500 miles?!?!?!?...Thats not a fly by. Like I tell the pilots at the DZ....."If I don't have to duck, don't bother." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, and some fly narrow. It is a personal choice how you fly. I teach and fly narrow, and have had long discussions on this with John Hoover and members of Majik. Like I said personal choice. Yes wider is better (Ref: Pontiac GrandAM commercials). And I do think if your goal is to be still and "stable", wider is better. However, if your goal is to move quick a little bit of instablity in your body position is good. Think about it...You have two Airplanes. One is a Cessna 182 (A very stable plane) and the other is a Pitts Special (Not so stable). Depending on what you want to do depends on what plane you take. If I want to have a nice "cruise" I take the Cessna. If I want to have quick movements I take the Pitts. Not saying that the Pitts is not stable..But it is not inherently stable....It has to be flown stable. Just like you can take a normal class plane and do Acro with it (Re: Bob Hoover in his Commander). It is much easier to do Acro in the Pitts than a Cessna. The same is true for the Mantis position...It is not inherently stable...you have to fly it stable. But the instability is what makes it fast. Stable is for Tandem masters Of course use what works for you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See everyone...I'm really not jerk And my big issue is I care so much about keeping people safe...I'm like a pit bull. I don't TRY to be...but I just am... Trust me when I say this..."I will do whatever I can to save you from the stupid things I have done. I am lucky to be alive, and some of my best friends were not so lucky." And you may not be...But you have said things that makes me think you are. You have also said a few things that might make me think you are not. But the litmus test is simple...Go jump with out an AAD or RSL..Not for me, but to prove it to yourself. It's the only way you are going to know. If you will not do it...then you are Dependant...If it scares the hell out of you...You are Dependant. Dependant may not be bad.....But the atitude that saftey toys can replace training IS. You have not been around long enough to have seen this trend. Several others with 10+ years do see this trend. You can't tell if you are in that grounp or not since you simply don't know what it was like pre poplular AAD. Back in the day, the first jump without an AAD was a big deal. It was proving something to yourself..there were other benefits as well..The "experienced" rental rigs didn't have AAD's but they were better looking, more comfertable, and had better canopies...You were an "up" jumper when you were allowed to jump without an AAD. People looked at you with a different respect. Now if you jump without an AAD you are looked at like an idiot. Where and when did individual responsability suddenly go out of fashion? No, I see abig difference....I choose to jump an AAD...But I have 700 jumps without one, and some of those were as recent as this mth. Choosing to have one means you would rather have one...but it is not needed. Depending on one is you will not jump without it. There is a big difference between those two. If you will not jump without something...you are dependant on it. (Well I have two BASE jumps...but thats kinda different). I am dependant on a reserve....I jump a canopy that is known to mal a lot (and I have choped it 5 times). If I didn't have a reserve...I would jump a PD 146 as a main in a freebag, not my current main. Dependence and using it as a ticket to lack of training are two issues that are related. And I have seen the connection several times...That I would say that most people who are dependent on saftey toys are becuase they are unsure of themselves...The bst way to be confident is to train, not buy cool saftey toys. Now if you already train like hell and just ADD the cool saftey toys...thats smart. But I and others have seen a lack of training in todays jumpers. You and the other newre jumpers can't say that they are the same as the jumpers 10 years ago...simply casue you were not there 10 years ago. There are people jumping today that don't have the confidence to jump without an AAD or RSL...Thats bad if they don't have confidence in themself. When I was learning how to fly...and had maybe 6 hours of flight time. I pulled the plane up to the FBO and jokingly told the instructor to get out. He looked at me like I was crazy. He made me go around the pattern again. Again I pulled up to the FBO and said "Get out". He told me to go around again. I pulled up to the FBO and stopped the plane. Before I could say anything he said "Yeah yeah...I'm getting out. Take it around 3 times and bring it back in one piece." Later after I had my ticket I asked him "Is it better to have a cocky student, or a nervious one?" He told me that cocky is better, but confident without attitude is the best. He also told me that he never worried about me because while I was maybe over confident...I also always shut up when he started talking, never gave him attitude and never thought I knew better than him. He called me over confident, but not cocky. Confidence is good....Jumping without an AAD or RSL can give you more confidence in YOURSELF, not just in the gear. There we have a difference of opinion...I don't think of a CYPRES as a Basic. Its an addition. If I forgot to turn it on...It means I forgot to turn it on, nothing more. If Im not sure of my gear I would have someone I trust give me a gear check. If my pins are good, and my PC is cocked. I would go. However, I would not preasure anyone to go if they didn't feel up to the task. But I think that a dead or off CYPRES is not a "NO-GO" item. Still I would doubt a persons confidence level if they would not go. It would seem to me that they feel they are over their heads in that situation. It is safer in that situation to ride the plane down...However, it does show a lack of confidence in themselves...And if they don't trust themself...Why should I? To Prartorian: I'll try not to be an ass and have a more relaxed approach....I would really not count on that working however . As Popeye said.."I yam what I yam, ARGHH!" I would ask that you ignore my approach and just focus on the content rather than just ignore the post. "I have a dream, I have a dream that one day my posts will be judged not by the delivery, but by the content of the post...I have a dream...." (sorry Dr. King) Hey, I am not always right. I used to follow the 45 degree rule...Now that I think about it..I was not really looking for the 45 degrees as much as looking to see that we were far enough away from them...But I thought I was looking for the 45 degrees. So I could be wrong..about individual people..But my thoughts on newer jumpers relying more on toys than themselves I still think is spot on. But you have no real basis to compare if you have not been around long enough to know the other side of the story. You didn't hijack it...I really hijacked the shit out of it however. Just in this thread you learned something, and others have had thinsg they know questioned, or things they knew reinforced. Ok Im gone. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No amount of links will change that opinion of you "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Bring it...We can fly when you are not risking your life on the big way. I have a nice large pond in mind for the float plane also. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you will either do it right, or die. No amount of practice will make it 100% sure you will handle it right. I know several folks that did it wrong...Some lived...Some died. They ALL thought they could handle it and they ALL THOUGHT they practiced enough. NONE of them thought they were going to die. You said it right here: And while your hand is disconnecting the RSL, what are you useing to control the canopy? You have three hands? Ever dropped a toggle yet? Its killed people ya know. So if you have one hand out of the toggles...UH I hate to break it to you, but you have to quit flying the canopy to disconnect the RSL. No, I know the mistakes that people have made over, and over, and over, and over...And they ALL THOUGHT they were better than the last guy that bounced. I do know the failings that 20-30 jumpers make every year for the last 10 years. I have had my fair share of mistakes...And I know what I was thinking durring those times. Not once was I cool enough to think "Hey, Im in a canopy wrap...I should disconnect that RSL before I cut away"...And further more I don't know ONE person that has ever done that...But I don know SEVERAL folks that have done the wrong thing in that same situation...Hell I almost did once. I almost cut away during a wrap. I was reaching for the handles when I stopped...I rode the mess in. Two riggers on the scene told me I would have died if I had cut away...The other canopy was wrapped around my container. My reserve would not have cleared it. Now I had 3 canopy wraps before that experience...And 1600 jumps. If I had 300 I would probably be dead right now. So I have seen/expereinced/heard of/thought about/dreamed about/been yelled at for/been carted off to the hospital for/cried while my buddies have been put to rest...much more times than you can imagine right now. And to behonest I would really you never have to do any of those things. Pain hurts, losing friends sucks. Someone wrote on here: The problem with skydiving is...If you suck and keep jumping, you are gonna die. If you are good and keep jumping, you are gonna see a lot of friends die. I'd rather people listen some and quit dying than quit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think they are afraid of Bush and they know that if they say what they said some will vote for Kerry. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

#1. I was busy writting and editing

By WHO? Ok, Im not seeing ONE person tell that it would happen. And hell even you admited you were wrong. You don't have a clue...And chances are you wiould not remember Cause people with shitloads more experience than you, or me, were not able to do it. And again I bet you will not even think about the RSL. Better jumpers than you and me both have forgotten about it. What makes you so good you will remember? Nope the AAD will save you if you do NOTHING...The RSL will only save you if you do something but screw it up. After you have had a mal and handled it correctly...The chances of you screwing up your emergency procedures are GREATLY reduced. Until you have that first chop...Its a crap shoot if you will do it right. You have already show dependence on both Altimeters and AAD's in this one thread. So how are you NOT dependant on these devices? This one I loved: With 15 jumps you have no idea what you will do...And besides you have already said you will not jump without one (reference the above quotes)...So if you jump at all you are already breaking this little lie. That whole statment is BS..you have already said you would not jump without one....So you are doing something more dangerous with one than you would without one by just jumping. So in high winds you are going to quite flying the canopy and try to disconnect it while on final??? Thats just stupid. You claim to hate my attitude...But you have the same one...Damn that is funny. The difference is that I don't have strong opinions on things I have little or no experience with. You do. Attitudes like yours are the reason guys like me quit trying to help...or just quit the sport. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No you don't. I don't either...But Bill said it *could* do something bad... He also said that since they have not tested it, and they didn't plan on ever testing it I was not getting them. And I'm not going to argue with Bill about gear. He knows tons more than me about gear. And it is a sponsored rig, and it's his company. I just don't need a better reason than Bill Booth thinking its bad idea. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

From your own site: So he does flip flop just to be popular...? Thats what it reads to me. I like tax cuts...You lefties like to tax more and give it away. Clinton was not a war....That makes a big difference. So he campaigned that he would raise it then he did? Sounds like he did what he said he would do to me. As for saying he would keep it at Clintons level...I thought we already covered the whole WAR thing? And Clinton did nothing to OBL or terrorism for 8 YEARS. Bush had 8 mths to prepare... Kerry helped WRITE it..then called it stupid. I guess you would rather go to war? You are funny you claim we should not go to war with Iraq, but we should against Korea. And you are using an EDITORIAL as proof? Bad form Doc. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The problem is if I post that...then no one will ever talk to me on a DZ...They could just come here and read my stories...Sorry I have to refuse so I'll have some friends atleast till they have heard all my stories. If I post them, I'd have to go find new stories just to have friends. Thats just to much work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Up until this thread you also thought that an RSL fired reserve on the ground would also cause the Reserve to inflate...You were wrong there. You thought you would have the pressence of mind to disconnect the RSL durring a wrap...You were wrong there as well. Before this thread you thought disconnecting an RSL after you had an open canopy was a good idea...Now you don't. Ya think you could be wrong on this as well? Did I TELL you to remove it? Nope. In fact I wrote: And I see people do it all the time. Studies have shown that drivers take more riskes when they feel "safe" due to having airbags. It is a FACT that people jump with a CYPRES when they would not jump without one. You yourself said this. So there is PROOF on that one. It is also a fact that some people do jumps they would not do if they didn't have a CYPRES when they do. I love this : For a total NOVICE...you seem to have pretty strong opinions on what you think. And you ahve been show wrong what three times TODAY? My point is you don't know what you don't know. You didn't know that a reserve is not going to just inflate...You do now. You thought disconnecting the RSL was a good idea under canopy...Now you don't. You thought you would be able to disconnect the RSL in wrap before you cutaway...Now I think you know you will not be able to do that. You may be commited to saftey....But so am I. And As you have said I have the experience on you. I have seen people get lazy about saftey...I have seen people not train as hard cause they had cool toys...I have seen people do more dangerous things casue they feel "safe". And so far we have shown you three things you were wrong about TODAY. 3 things in one DAY...Maybe you should understand we are not here to hurt you...In fact I hope you never get hurt. But the first step is to realize you don't know enough to have such strong opinions. And I would like you to learn from my bad judgment, and my experiences so you don't have to almost die three times. But I mean what the hell do I know right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well one is my Exwife...I KNOW Im not popular with her. Which one, laying siege to the castle, or the can't date whuffos if you live in a trailer on a DZ? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I had them on my Javelin. It was kind of a joke. Derrick asked me what else I wanted on mt rig and I said "Reserve Dive loops". He kinda chuckled. A few weeks later I get a call saying my new rig was ready. I go to pick it up, and sure enough I had dive loops on my reserve! Cool. I have six rides on my PD113. One was in a tight area between trees, so that was straight in. The next 4 were 180 hooks. My last was on my new Vector. I don't see a problem with them on the reserve, how ever when I asked Bill Booth to have them put on my Vector 3....He gave me an "Are you stupid?" look. And then a lecture on wh he would not. I totaly respect Relative Workshop, and I think they have the best engineered rigs on the planet. Bill told me that he would never put dive loops in a reserve tray due to the fact that many times less is better. And the RW will not add UNECESSARY things that could cause problems just cause I might want them. And that since it has not been tested they would never do that to a reserve system. All very valid points...And even though I can't see how they could cause a problem, and I have never heard of a problem like that...I also realize that Bill knows tons more than me, and if he says its stupid...Thats good enough for me. Funny note on the Javelin...when I went to another rigger who didn't know me, and didn't knnow my relationship with Derrick...He was going to cut them off before he repacked the reserve. He didn't cut them off, but when I came to pick them up he started questioning me about them. He said they were not from the factory,a nd that I must have added them. I told him that they were built and installed by Sunpath and that he should call Derrick and ask him. So they are not needed. Could cause a problem. But they are fun. I'd say don't get them. You don't need them. Landing under a reserve should be safe not fun, and I would hate to be the first fatality due to them. BTW I have a Javelin in the closet for sale "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, they are additions to put in place to make up for poor saftey procedures. Anyone can brain fart. But proper training, in my opinion, is better than all the cool saftey toys. And the cool saftey toys can ADD problems. I am very current. (I have done 36 jumps so far this MTH)...So I feel better with my skill and training than cool devices. As a student an RSL can be a good thing...And it is required anyway till you are licensed. I would suggest that you kepp the RSL till after you have delt with a malfuntion properly. IF you choose to jump with an RSL....I would not disconnect it after you open. And RSL works best when shit happens low. And as for disconnecting it in high winds...I would rather just work harder to contain the main. If it is so windy that you will have problems controling the main after you land...Maybe you should not be jumping at all. If you have to chop it cause you might get drug...Its a serious situation...don't worry about the RSL opening the main..Its 40 bucks...And I have never seen a reserve open on the ground. I bet that if you get into a wrap...The last thing you are going to remember to do is disconnect the RSL. I have had 6 malfunctions, one wrap, one wrap that cleared...I didn't have the presence of mind to think about disconnecting an RSL...I would have to bet that few would. VERY few Cypres fires are people getting knocked out...90% of them are people just plain fucking up... I have one incase I fuck up...I could. I don't have one incase I get knocked out...Chances are that will nevr happen to me, but there is a chance I could fuck up. People like to say they have them in case they get knocked out..These people either don't know the facts about CYPRES fires, or they just don't want to admit they have them in case they fuck up since its not cool to admit they could fuck up. I have one in case I fuck up. I really doubt I will every get knocked out...There is a much larger chance I'll just fuck up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I know you are alive...I have seen you post...Missy who? I know like 5 Missy's. I have told you I only have like 5 good stories....Good stories take a good amount of effort to get. And then you have to work on the timing and polish them up...It is a lot of work. It is just easier to find new people to tell them to than to get new stories. Hey, I've got a story....... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then we are done. Most programs teach both. And I think both are very good TLO's. You may disagree. But backloops and rolls are very good for letting a student get more comfertable in freefall....And that is a goal of any program of instruction. It happens, read the reply from "the111" on this very thread. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

My Favorite. "I'm 31 and I live in a trailer on a Dropzone in ZHill's." Private joke...someone will get it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Source? Any PROOF yet? Like as in smoking gun...Not he said, she said. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334