Ron

Open water certification for PADI and NAUI is 60 feet. Advanced is to 130 feet. Yes that says for training, but in the course they say that we needed Advanced to go deeper. And this agrees Advanced: Now many dive companies ignore that....Just like some people pull low. I have been on what I would call a tech dive (Penetrated a wreck at 90-100 feet in HIGH flow.) and all I showed was my Open water card. They let me, but that does not mean that its right. You can bounce it, but its not very smart. Just like you can pull low. And it sounds like this guy was to stupid to survive. He had good gear and air..Plus you can surface from 60 feet in an out of air emergency. I have done solo dives in open water to 60 with my dive buddy "Katie the 80". I used to dive almost every day here in FL. Edit to add: Its been a few years since I did much diving. SO if you can show me where it says otherwise I'll be glad to read it....In fact the Standard procedures maunual it recomended that sport divers stay with dives around 30 feet. But if you can show othewise please do...I'd really like to know. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, it does not look nearly as cool...Therfore it can't be safe. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

While I agree to a point...this is the part that gets me: (Bold by me) Open water certification is for 60 feet. If he was experienced, had plenty of air, and his equipment worked correctly...The simple answer is he just did something stupid and fucked up. I have done practice emergency accents from 60 feet before...And this guy had air and working equipment. A "Buddy is only really able to help in an out of air/entanglement situation. This guy had air and good equipment...An instructor could not have done that much to help him if he was so stupid to die with air and good equipment. Its a BS lawsuit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not a slam at you.... But everyone thinks they are a good driver...Every skydiver also thinks they are safe, even the dangerous ones. You may be one or the other...But you will think you are safe either way. Complacency in this sport kills. People get comfertable around 70-150 jumps. Its a bad thing. Like I said it may not apply to you, but it is the norm.... "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do I what I did....move. Its kinda neat being in a place where you can read Skydiving Mag and already know most of it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well the problem was that they didn't know it would happen...So there is one accident that could have been fatal...And that was before they knew this could happen...Now they know it could happen and I have still not heard anything about it yet. We know it DID happen...If it happened once, it can happen again....Do you want an AAD that could kill you? Thats kinda lame..if it says "0"....you can jump..If it is not working, it does not turn on. Yes, it does not say "Hello", and does not track freefall speeds and jumps....But thats just added crap that you don't need in an AAD. They took a life saving device, and added crap to it. An AAD sould be easy to use (Both are) simple (Both are) buit well (both are) and above all reliable (only one so far). You want simple? Or do you want an AAD that makes expresso? Simple is a CYPRES...You bought the AAD that says "Hello" and tracks freefall time...All of which have nothing to do with an AAD. But you claim to want the simple product...I'll take reliable over seeing "Hello" when I turn it on everyday. Because a ProTrack wil not kill you if its wrong. Yeah, but the CYPRES static issue made it so you could not read the display...the Vigil fires..Twice now in freefall. In FL winter is our busy season. And the whole not needeing maintenaunce was a big selling point. Now all Vigils made before X date have to go back.....I'd rather have an AAD I have to send off for a 4 year check than an AAD I have to send off casue its fucked up. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep just like I say about canopies and wingloads...Xnumber of jumps is only x number of LANDINGS...and thats very important. I REALLY like that saying....I have heard it before, but I like it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I disagree. You sure people didn't rip him a new one? Maybe he just didn't listen... Ask him now if he thinks 140 jumps at a 1.4 is a good idea...Hell, I'd like to hear his answer. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

For competition the exit altitude is 7,500 to 8,000 feet. You have about 2 min of working time. In rotations you have 30 seconds to build then 1:30 seconds. In Zhills most CRW jumps are from 8 grand. Thats were he got that info from. But yes they can open higher..I think they are not allowed above 10 grand due to not having a transponder in Zhills, or the jump plane is supposed to circle them. (I could be wrong about that...Diverdriver?) "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Why, then people will think he is old...And bald. Its so much more cool to let people do what they want. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am having a hard time deciding if this was a complement, or a personal attack? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have not seen a release on the air fire in DeLand yet. I think they are trying...But I would like an offical report on the air fire in DeLand...This is a very possible saftey concern. Im not so upset about the ground fires...I mean it would really suck to have my rig just fire while I was packing it...But if the company paid for the cutter and the repack I would be upset, but not pissed. (I don't know if they are doing this, but I would like to think they are) I however would not jump one right now. Yep...However a fire vs a screen going blank is a big difference in my little book. Which is why I wait for it to be old new tech...Before I buy it. Im not so into being a guinea pig when it could kill me. You are really willing to risk your life on a new toy for a cool display? They might be handleing the issue well (And I have my doubts). But think about it...It's your life. Just a thought..A saftey device that can kill you when it mals...is not so safe. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I have a story-- But thats another time. I would not tack them down...If you want to get rid of them...get rid of them, don't just modify them. If you don't mind them, don't mind the folks telling you to get rid of them. Just realize that they can cause a problem in not stowed properly...Other than that its just preference. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

bingo!!! Be honest!!! You are looking at boobies!!!! Hey think this way...when a girl you are staring at says "Stop looking at my chest!" you can say "Chest?!?!? I was checking to see if you had your boobie strap...Er I mean chest strap routed correctly." "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yep, some people...Around 800-1000 jumps get so comfertable that they start trying to look cool. And lets face it a rig is not that comfertable as opposed to it just hanging there like a backpack. I think its stupid...But I'm not going to say I didn't do it. I did it, I was stupid. All the cool guys did it. Don't try to look cool, try to be safe. Losing cool points is survivable. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Do what we can do. bring it up..And look at each others gear when we can...Make time for it if we have to. Don't let people get on the plane if they are not ready to leave... The most important thing we can do is focus on OUR rig and make sure WE are safe. The thing is this issue is low on my radar...I know its there, and I know it kills. But right now my #1 priority is canopy flight....More people get killed under a good canopy than by falling out of a rig. And this issue has a simple fix: 1. Put your gear on in a mental checklist...don't change that process. I put my right leg in the legstrap and then throw the rig on myright shoulder. I then put my left leg in, and throw it on my left shoulder. I then do the chest strap, and then the leg straps...I have been doing it this way for 11 years...ever since I misrouted a chest strap like a dumbass. 2. Check your own gear before you step on the plane...Do it EVERY time you walk to the stairs. (This is also a good time to do a handles check and a practice malfunction. Becasue of this I have over 3,500 practice mals...I do them on EVERY jump. 3. Visually check your buddies while you are getting up and getting ready. Check everyone within your line of site. Just last weekend I had a guy in the front of the otter tell me my reserve handle was coming out some. Which leads to #4. 4. Check your own gear again before the line up or exit. 5. Remember that this sport kills, and YOU are responsible for YOUR saftey first. Don't trust Bob to check your gear...YOU check your gear..Then check Bob's and have him check yours... 6. Gear checks are cool. Airspeed, the GK's and Majik do them... I remember this one time I was lucky enough o be jumping with some Airspeed and GK guys doing an 8way comp. I was the guy with the lowest number of jumps. There was this guy that just did his 1,200 jump. He was walking to the plane and I pulled him aside... I said "Why are you walking to the plane not geared up?" He said "I don't know". I asked him to look at my group...Neal Houston, Derrick Thomas, Joe Trinko...More great skydivers with 10,000 + jumps than you could ever care to jump with...I asked him to notice if any of them didn't have their rigs on. They all had their rigs on ready to go...All of them looked cool geared up. All of them were cool, none of them were to cool to walk out with their shit hanging off of them to look cool...They were cool. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I agree with you...And I even suggested steps you could do to take it even further. I think ramp checks would not be a bad idea. I check EVERYONE in the plane. And many times have stopped people at the stairs to the plane and told them to put their leg straps on before getting on the plane. (That is a pet peave of mine). I ask them if they have heard the sayng "Its you and me till its you OR me". I then ask them if they get on the plane without their leg straps on and the engine blows and the pilot tells us to get out NOW. If they think I am going to wait for them to finaly put their gear on before I head to the door. I have had one guy tell me to leave him alone and ask me if I was his Mother. I told him I'm not his Mom, but she called and told him to stop being stupid. Yep find any post or anyone that knows me that does not show that. Yep, but to see the issue you have to not look at it through emotional eyes. OK I have to admit it is not as all comsuming to me as it was, and now is with you..And yes, that does make it much easier to not get emotional. I disect the accident to try and learn from it and then do everything I can to keep myself or anyone else from making that mistake....For this I get called an asshole. (Not so much from you...but its a pretty common thing). Agreed. I actually think that we should MAKE the time...Hench my suggesting ramp checks. Its not beyond the call....In fact if you look around here you see that I am most times yelling for people to be safe. I am one of the largest voices calling for a Wing Load BSR. My only issue was with the emotional argument. Its really pretty cut and dry... You think (as most do) that we should look out for each other. Towerrat thinks the same way...In fact he said many things that you didn't read. BOLD my thoughts Yes he gets a little brash with: But it really kinda is just your problem...It's you butt on the line if you don't put your gear on and check it. I have mine on and I did check it...Therfore I will live. And for the record I have climbed out with my chest strap undone...Jump #28 I think. (Man I was I stupid.) But it was MY fault for not having it on...And for the record it was on, but not threading correctly. Look, I AGREE with your thoughts...I didn't agree with the whole skydiver vs jumper stuff...If you look its the only thing I didn't agree with. And I gave my reasons why I didn't like it. So, now what do we do? Ramp checks? Probably not going to happen. Although it is done in England, and we did it in the military. It could easliy be done while waiting for the plane to taxi up. I like the idea, and I check every persons gear on my team when I am training, or everyones gear in my group when I am organizing...Most people don't know I'm checking it. I stand by the stairs and make sure that if you have to get out right then that you would survive. I don't check everything, but I do a legstrap (From the days of B12's) and chest strap check. On students/lowtimers I check altimeters. If you have 500 jumpsI figure that since you don't NEED an altimeter, and have lived through 500 jumps I don't have to go out of my way to check it....If its easy to see, I check it, but some people I know have them in helmets till the get ready at 10 grand. So what would you like? Jumpmaster checks for everyone? Observed self checks? Ramp checks where everyone checks the guy in front of him? Like I said I liked your thoughts...Just not the labeling of towerrat. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Same...And I can't tell me who said what since it was in confidence....And we all knw how people get around here and posting PM's. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He didn't need to jump at this guy either. He is trying to tell a guy what he is...Based off of HIS OWN OPINION. Both the two in question have 500ish jumps...what makes one allowed to tell the other what he is? Yep, and I'm instructing....You don't see me telling BillVon he is "Just a Jumper" and not as cool as me....What makes this guy have that right? And he has a very good point...I agreed with it, and even told him to try and do something about it...But I don't think he should be running around trying to label others. And I agreed with it. And I do it all the time. My attitude about his piss poor attitude sucks...The difference was you didn't seem to mind his, I did. Yep, and I have both been caught wrong and fixed others...Like I said my issue was with him telling Towerrat that he was not a "Skydiver"... Ever hear the saying..."It's you and me till it's you OR me". I'm ALL about saftey. But Im also ALL about not letting some guy with the same number of jumps slam a guy cause he does not agree with him. Like I said before...Do ramp checks. I think its a great idea...But don'g go around saying "He is not a REAL skydiver since he does not agree with me" Thats Bull Shit "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well I am glad in all your "experience" that you can tell who is a "skydiver" and who is just a "jumper". That is my issue. You claim that unless a guy checks out everyones gear he is not really a "skydiver" And that is a bull shit argument. No my coments are to ask you who the hell you think you are to say who is what? And to inform you that your "opinon" of who is what is Bull Shit. You may think I am pathetic, but your childish attempt to use emotion in a discussion to try and prove a point is pretty pathetic. You claim to know who is what....Thats ego. As for what I do...I bet I have worked with more low timers than you, and that includes low times with more jumps than you. But your BS attitude about who is what was my beef. You want to start ramp checks...? Go ahead. I think its a great idea. But for you to say: Is Bull Shit. And thats my beef. Like I said I like the idea of ramp checks...And I have stoped many jumpers from getting on without having their gear on. But who are YOU to say who is what? My health, heart and mind have done just fine for 11 years and 6 times the jumps you have. And that I agree. And that I agree and also do.. Like I said my beef was with you pulling in the old "Your not a skydiver, you are just a jumper" BS. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No problem...I am sure you don't follow the 4way world as much as I do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, Juggernaut was an Advanced LEVEL team. They were quite capable of turning a 13+ in an Advanced/Open draw. I think they would have medaled in Advanced that year, but they chose to step down, and take the easy win. And they were able to since no one on the team had WON Intermediate, or a higher class... They didn't "hire" anyone...They were all the same level of skydiver. They didn't HAVE to go open....In fact they DIDN'T go open they went Advanced. They chose to go Advanced. They could have gone in ANY class they wanted since none of them had a Gold medal in a higher class. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

YOU are responsable to make sure YOUR gear is on. That's a good point; the rest of your post is a thinly disguised personal attack on the poster. Cut it out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What a bad arch on your first solo jump?!?!? Thats it, you should quit right now...You clearly don't have "it". I bet the first time you got behind the wheel of a car you were ready for the Daytona 500 right? I doubt it. What you didn't just go...I mean whats not normal about jumping out of an airplane in flight over 2 miles up?...I have one word for you on this...normal. OK, more focus on performance and less on fear. Arch, don't tumble... Yep, this sounds like about 1,000 other first jumps I have seen....No big deal. Relax. I guess that means you lived right? So I would count that as a success. collapse your chute next time. Well that would be a good thing. You are not dead, so I'd sign it off. Why? Cause you didn't perform perfectly in a high stress situation? Get over that. If it was easy, eveyone would do it. If it was not dangerous and scary you could do SL at Disney World. Yes, much easier. Relax and think about all you have already learned: 1. Don't worry about being afraid...fear is good in this sport. 2. Don't wait in the door go. You came to jump, got all dressed up in stupid looking student gear, and got into a small plane with a door that opens easily...GO! 3. Arch on exit...Don't tumble. 4. You delt with line twists. 5. You had a safe landing. 6. You now know to really work on collapsing the chute after you land...And you know what its like to be drug...And well you provided comic relief for the DZ. 7. You also now have the harder exit done...And next week you will have a second aircraft type that you have jumped from...Not bad for a person with 3 total jumps. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Which is totally the wrong advice for a guy in a SL program. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334