Ron

Damn...does it hurt when you are so right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The anthrax attack was nothing. Now imagine an air burst bomb with Sarin gas exploding right over a packed football stadium. If you had the Sarin, the delivery would be EASY. I don't totally agree with that. Yes the goal of terror is to disrupt lives...But the effects of 9/11 are still being felt. Again there is no proof of that being a plan. As for a presence in the middle east we have some in Israel and Saudi Arabi already. An occuping force is rarely met with open arms. Also I think that if the Administartion didn't have what they thought was good intel then it would be foolish to push an agenda that they could not back....Think about it If we find out that Bush KNEW there were no WMD's but ordered the war anyway, Even I would want his head on a platter. I would want him in impeached and in JAIL for war crimes. And since we already have troops in the middle east besides Iraq...I would not risk it with out a good hunch that there was a real threat. All of them will not risk our vengence. NK can't even feed its people much less win a conventonal war with our weapons we have. China does not hate us as much as it is made out...Lets see, ok, I have found 2 products in my office that were made in China in 2 minutes. Jordan and Sudan....Same, they don't like us, but their leaders are not openly saying they want us dead, and last I checked they have not plotted to kill our President. And the fear I had was that WMD's from a country that had them would give them to a terroist group...The prime choice for that kind of action was Iraq. I still think that we thought Iraq had WMD's and I also think that he would have happily given them to someone that promised to use them on us. So I think he was a threat. Now if it was found that he didn't have any...And we KNEW it...I will stand right next to you and ask to impeach the President. Our war on terror is tricky. One thing you HAVE to do is destroy the support base for these criminals. You can't jsut wait for them to form and attack them. Make it so that if you are harboring them, we will burn your house down with them inside. If you are giving them aid or weapons we will destroy them and you in the process. I think Iraq was a step to that end. Not so easy to answer...You definition and mine are not going to match. Like I said, the way to attack a terror cell is to cut off its support base..Make it so that no one is willing to give them money, aid, weapons, or shelter. Make them stand in the open and then cut them down. Ya know why the old USSR didn't have planes get hijacked? They killed everyone involved, they didnt allow them to get away with it. And so they never did get planes hijacked anymore...Yes, they lost some people in the raids before the terroists learned it would not work...but I doubt the lost the 3,000 we did on 9/11 before the lesson sunk in. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The length is 8 (As you know) But the ACTIVE time is up to the enlistment contract...BTW the mimumum when I signed on (1/6/99) was 2 years, 2 mths for Infantry. If you wanted Airborne it was 3 years. And most other MOS's were 3 years. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Which this thread is NOT about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But do you understand in their eyes WE are enablers that allow their people to be killed...Therfore we are not innocent. Therefore they are justified in attacking us....Now I don't AGREE...However I do UNDERSTAND...And for the record I think that anyone that supports my enemy IS an aggressor. The Suicide bombers see Israel as an occupation force..And therefore EVERYONE is an aggressor. The Kamakazi pilots were defending their Emperor. And the 9/11 hijackers were defending Islam and the home land from our support of Israel and occupation of the middle east. While I UNDERSTAND them, and think that they all had Honor to die for their causes...does not mean I agree. I CAN however respect their honor. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ladies and Gentelman...we have a winner.... You signed up for eight and you knew it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Saddam has made hundreds of threats to the Us over the past 10 years...Until 9/11 we considered him no threat since we were sure that the homeland was safe. Becasue he supported terroists,a nd had at one time a stock pile of WMD's...And he would gladly give them to anyone that promised to use them on us...And now we knoew after 9/11 that they could actually do it. Its easy to live life backwards...Lets face it most Americans were behind the war...Congress was behind the war...It is easy to see how people are getting sick of it...But at one time it was a popular idea.... I wish we had better intel before we started..But we had some, and we were afraid. We were still reeling from seeing the WTC's fall. Now a year later it is easy to say we jumped the gun...But Almost EVERYONE was behind it a year ago. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No. I still think that the major reason we attacked was due to our fears that he had, or could have at the flip of a switch WMD's. And the fears that while HE may not use them that he would sell/give them to terroists to use. Could you imagine the death toll from a Biological agent released in NYC or LA? We KNOW he supported terroists, and we KNOW he hated us. I think that this is a reaction to the 9/11 attacks. Before 9/11 we had some intel that AL Quida was planning an attack. But nothing soild, and we were living in a dream world thinking that we were not subject to a terroist attack...At least nothing on such a grand scale....Lets face it the first WTC bombings were nothing...OK city was worse. So we were living with rose colored glasses on. 9/11 and the fact that they pulled off a VERY well planned and VERY well coordinated attack...Frankly shocked the shit out of us....I don't think a single person thought they could actually pull off an attack like that.... I think that lead to an over compensation...there is a name for this, but it escapes me right now....So now we took all intel WAY to seriously. Its a natural reaction. At the time we thought it better to be over cautious so we didn't get slammed like we did on 9/11. The theat of an NBC attack (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical...not the TV network) is a very real danger. The problem with an attack like that is not the delivery...The delivery is simple. It is the product. And who hates us that had/could have that kind of product? Answer: Iraq. We know he had them, and he has no morals against using them....As he showed by using them on his own people. Plus several times he has wished the US harm. He is a prime choice for a supplier for an NBC agent. This shock is wearing off....Now we are not in a panic and it is easier to see the errors and the flaws in our over compensation. Now the danger is not to get to lax...We already have people who almost deny that 9/11 happend. The fact that we have removed those images from TV has helped the nation heal....Maybe to much. It will be easy for the nation to become lax. We will tire of the constant changes to our colored warning system....We will change from Yellow to Orange so many times that it will stop being a big deal and chicken littles warnings will no longer be heeded. Then the next attack will come....The public will blame the system we have for not catching the attack...And the people will lose faith in the repoting system and the government that controls it... However we don't know how many attacks if any HAVE been avoided due to the current systems in place....And we may never know since the Government will not tell us. Any leaks about what attacks were stopped just let the terrorists learn what not to do next time...Al Queda has been very good to learn from past mistakes. What do we do? We don't let our guard drop down...We are in a new world, and it is not pretty. Oue intel community is in a hard spot...Do they chase every threat, or only the "quality" leads? Sometimes the smallest threat...the one you are ignoring, Is the main attack. With an NBC that could be very bad. We have to bring our intel up....That is a long subject on its own....But some issues we are already seeing is...When does interagation become tourture. These questions WILL have to be answered...And what do we consider to be an acceptable risk level? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The WTC attacks were NOT attacks on GWB..They were planned WAY before GWB took office, and a prior attack happend during Clintons term. It was an attack on America for several things. From OBL's letter to America: They attacked us for several reasons. None were GWB. Then the Americans that tourtured the Iraqi's in prison are innocent? Murderers on death row are innocent? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sources from Saudi Arabia, Defectors from Iraq, England and even German reports showed a threat. Hans Blix's reports showed that he was only KINDA co-operationg with the inspections. He was still working on long range missles WHILE HANS WAS THERE. SH had ignored the UN resolution for 10 years. We had intel from several sources. Some was shakey and some had agendas...But thats how ALL HUMINT is. Again several sources from several different places...Not 5 guys from Brooklyn. Enough sources that CONGRESS voted to allow force, the UN voted to allow force. Your issue is with how much proof is needed...The UN and CONGRESS though there was a threat....The UN and Congress could not agree with how much proof was needed... Again. I don't need a better reason to attack somone than them telling everyone they are wanting to kill me, after I have seen them kill others. Why wait? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The 270 is better than jumping a smaller canopy.. You never accidentally will do a 270, but you might have to turn on the smaller canopy thus blowing your small canopy straight in idea all to hell. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Standard response for the USPA... We need more I's so lets make the course easy. Fuck saftey, lets make it cost effective. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We finally agree you have no honor. I'm done with this...continue to bash those who are willing to protect your right to bitch. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See now you have to define "innocent" According to Sun Tzu the friend of my enemy is my enemy...And also anyone that supports my enemy is my enemy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you clearly have not seen it enough. You seem to only care fo your selfish interests. It's clear you will not understand. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They are VERY honorable, as were the Kamakazi Pilots of WW2, And the terroists of 9/11. I may not AGREE with them, but they had honor. Of course you would not understand. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

See, you don't understand Honor at all. Honor is not dependant on the cause...If your nation calls you answer the call. You clearly would not. The spineless call those with honor "lemmings" "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Its offensive to call people who DID join the service "Lemmings" for being willing to do WHAT MY COUNTRY ASKS OF ME. Honor is doing what you need to do even if you don't want to. Duty is doing what you are asked to do. Integrity is doing it even if no one is watching. You didn't call those that will serve if called "Lemmings". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You called me a lemming for being willing to defend the country. That shows you have no Honor or sense of Duty. Most who run to Canada are frankly just cowards...they claim its cause they don't agree with the policies since saying "I'm a coward" is uncool. And that right was bought with BLOOD something you seem to have forgotten. Don't you have a noon tea party to get to? I am quite aware of the founding of this country...And I severed to protect it...unlike you who just bitches about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes. I think SH was a jackass that supported terroism. Maybe not behind 9/11, but he supported terroists and openly hated the US and wished us harm.... SH was a bad man that killed his own people. His sons killed for sport. SH helped propel political instability in the middle east. I don't need a better reason to kill someone than them saying they are going to kill me as soon as they get the chance. SH didn't comply with the UN reslolutions.... How many do you need? We should have rolled over him in Gulf War 1. Now can you even fathom the idea of giving of yourself for the good of the COUNTRY? Can you understand that NO WAR is popular and NO ONE wants to die for his country?...But thank God some men are still willing to defend the country.. So that people like you can sit and bitch about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'm not a lemming, I just have a sense of DUTY, HONOR and INTEGRITY...Something you would never understand. If people like you founded this country we would still be English. Shame, maybe then you would understand giving of yourself for the good of the COUNTRY. But I guess you would rather bash those that do. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Im never said he didn't have them, and aI never said we didnt SELL them to him...I say he had them and you say we sold them to him...OK Bill thats getting old...I KNOW we sold them to him, I also KNOW he had them...YOU keep saying he didn't have them.... Myth? It says it was built Ok but I am PROVING they had bad intel...See..He gave bad intel. My point is proven here. So they were NOT being "active" in helping out Big difference in you and a defector from Russia. Plus we had intel from SEVERAL sources...not just one guy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I guess you support all the draft dodgers from all wars? I guess you have never served... Guess what? No one wants to fight. But some DO since they have HONOR...Its not my fault you have none "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ya know what pisses me off? Hypocrisy, and you stink of it. I want this and that but as soon as I have to DO anything to EARN it, I'm off to Canada. I DEMAND the rights that have been earned by the blood of my fore fathers, but I am NOT going to risk spilling mine. I have the right to BITCH about anything I don't like, but no RESPONSABILITY to to this country. I love the USA...As long as its the US of my wAy . You are just like the cry babies that have been weekend warriors for umteen years that have been called up...NOW they cry about having to actually be in the Armed Forces...They were not complaining when they were cashing the reserve checks, going to school on the government dime...But as soon as they are going to get deployed, now its unfair? Thats BS. You don't want to defend the country? Fine move to Canada...But do me a favor and STAY there. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

NAFTA...And didn't you lefties get all bent out of shape when GWB backed out of the Canadian Lumber since it was unfair to our lumber industry? Ya blamed him FOR NAFTA, then slammed him when he wanted it to be fair? WOW "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334