Ron

There are about 30k USPA members in the US. About 30 people die each year. Using dissimilar numbers can not bring good results. The "safer than driving" has been beat to death.... I think it is false, personally. But if you want to do a search it will provide my and others opinions on the topic. Except not everyone that jumps is a USPA member and not every member makes only 1 jump a year. If you want a rough idea (rough, not taking in any sort of factors other than jump #s) you just take total deaths each year, divide it by total jumps each year, and that's your chance to die per jump -- roughly. Hence the 'Using dissimilar numbers can not bring good results.' Not everyone that rides a motorcycle has the same risk either. Frankly the actions are too dissimilar for any kind of simple comparison. But skydiving has no breaks, once you start a skydive you go full throttle till you start stopping. When you start stopping, the brakes can malfunction and it happens enough that we train for it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There are about 30k USPA members in the US. About 30 people die each year. Using dissimilar numbers can not bring good results. The "safer than driving" has been beat to death.... I think it is false, personally. But if you want to do a search it will provide my and others opinions on the topic. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Now you are not going? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"Jim along with his partner Lyle Presse were responsible for delivering the new sport of Canopy Piloting (a.k.a. swooping) to the International Parachute Commission which got accepted at the IPC’s 54th annual meeting in Brazil." "Jim with his partner Lyle Presse organized the 1st World Cup of Canopy Piloting" If you like swooping, I would say yes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We clearly are in trouble then... Because nothing else has worked. I'll take you up in that... I am sure there is plenty we can discuss. Honestly, I have given up on the USPA to do anything productive. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If true, then wouldn't it have been a good idea to disclose that information at the time? Not saying it is not true, but maybe the wakeup call then would have prevented this. Still, I don't put much weight in "off the record conversations" unless I was a party to them, or someone I personally know was a part to it. Too much rumor potential. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have read that thread an nowhere did I see you mention how many TI jumps you have. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The FAA didn't shut down tandems when the fat lady fell out, or when the quad fell out. Claiming they would have shut it down if this person fell out is a bit of a stretch. http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/185.shtml http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/156.shtml "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Oh, I see you were serious...... OK, assuming you are serious and that you actually wish to have a discussion: How many jumps as a tandem TI do you have? Me, I have maybe 1,000, maybe more. And I can tell you that tandem skydiving is THE most dangerous type of skydive an experienced jumper can make. You basically create a pilot chute in tow malfunction on purpose and carry a person that, at any time, can freak out on you and start grabbing things. They can swing their hands and hit you, they can smash their head against your head/face/neck (we just recently had a fatality where it seems the students head smashed into the TI and incapacitated him) and they can grab handles, bridles, drogues, your hands.... etc. There is the additional snag hazard. When you take two heads thinking different things, four arms doing different things, four legs doing different things, and a possibly tumbling ball of shit.... the last thing you need to worry about is a camera. Hell, even the TI wearing a handycam increases the risk and the TI has TOTAL control over where that camera is. We already have incidents where the bridle gets caught by the students or TI's arms, legs, head (yes head)... Adding to that that is not exactly a smart move. Finally, ignoring the snag hazard (which is HUGE) what happens if they drop the camera and it goes right through someones roof, dents their car, or god forbid hits someone? All this is with a person who has NO IDEA what they are going to do either. Yet they like to think they will get 'the shot'. They won't, they would be lucky to remember to turn the camera on. Simply put, the risks of a total unknown participant performing correctly is already there..... ADD a task to them and the chance of them performing that as well makes correctly performing EITHER less likely. Again, how many TI jumps do you have? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have video of his cliff strike and SUPER low jump from years ago.... Maybe I will see if I can take it off the VHS and put it on line. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You ignored the entire rest of my post. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The USPA has shown it can't. The USPA has shown it can't really do what it was created to do very well. 1. The USPA didn't create AFF. 2. The USPA didn't create Tandem training. 3. The USPA didn't promote the use of throw outs. 4. The USPA didn't create coaching. 5. The USPA didn't teach canopy control. 6. The USPA didn't teach free flying. 7. The USPA banned wingsuits. So, no.... Not only do I not see a need for this level of a solution - But the USPA has proven to be pretty bad at doing much of anything. Simply put, if I didnt have to be a member to jump at most DZ's.. I'd tell them to pound sand. If I was going to support any education from the USPA, it would be canopy control, something that effects EVERY member, not just a very small sample. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And unless you are giving it away for free, you can. Make your training 'mandatory' and then you have just put a lock on the market. Yep, more money to be made so some see it as more worth the effort. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So you'd like a PRO-I, PRO I/E and PRO-course director rating from USPA to train people to get PRO ratings - no one is born knowing how to get a PRO rating. Ditto for freeflying - no-one is born knowing how to freefly. Ditto for CRW - no one is born knowing how to do CRW. Ditto for skysurfing - no-one is born knowing how to jump a board. Ditto for pond surfing - no-one is born knowing how to do that. What a lot of new USPA ratings you want. Nope they sure aren't born with the skills...so what they do is boldly go into the unknown and hope they learn through osmosis before they get hurt or killed, or they pay someone with both the experience and the ability to teach it effectively, which is a safer and smarter way to go IMHO. Of course some of them get hurt or killed anyway...hummm, bygosh maybe your right! If there was only a way we could make sure the paid teachers are qualified to be teaching, and that they are all covering the same material the same basic way...what a wonderful world it WOULD be! and like I said before...as soon as any or all of those various disciplines creates a situation across the board due to incidents...which if not addressed satisfactorily could in effect entirely change the way a drop-zone can do business, if at all ~ then yeah, I'm pretty sure some evaluation of skills and secondary training parameters might be put in place. Uh the Pro rating was created because a bunch of yahoos were hurting themselves and others at demos. So why not create a wingsuit rating exactly like the demo? You did notice that we didn't create an instructor rating to teach demos... Right? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. It is a joke. Calling the canopy a 'spinetto' is just like calling a Javelin an 'unrwavelin', the batwing a 'splatwing' or a free flyer a guy that just could not get stable and learned to live with it. 2. All jokes tend to have a nugget of truth. The stiletto earned the reputation for spinning line twist cutaways. That is not totally the fault of the design, it was the first mass produced elliptical and it was the canopy that was the learning curve on how to jump them. That being said, they are a great canopy - but one that is not as forgiving as other canopies and not even as forgiving as like loaded ellipticals. I have two of them and about 4k jumps on stilettos (out of my ~6k jumps)... And I also have more chops on stilettos than any other canopy (even as a ratio of jumps on type). So: 1. Lighten up 2. See point #1 "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Wingsuiters can't even agree. You seem hell bent on creating yet another boondoggle run by the USPA. Are you going to support "Bigway instructor" ratings next? Some WS'rs are behind this because it will make them money. Some are because they think it will give them legitimacy. Because all the benefits they keep saying this will bring could be brought about by other methods. Me, I don't WS. What I do know is the USPA is too big and does too much unneeded crap already. Some want to make it a bigger organization... One has to wonder why since the benefits could be gained in other ways. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe thats because you have not actually bothered to read any replies... Well, I can't say any, but I can say your position and reply to me shows you have not read any of mine. This just proves you have not read a thing I have written. Until you do actually read anything written.... You will continue to falsely think the things you do. As will I. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Creating a bureaucracy of an entire new training system to be run by the USPA is like using a shotgun to try and take out a housefly. It might work, but it is going to be messy and overkill. Yeah... uhm... ok ... I'm not sure what you thought I said in my post that led to your response. Creating a bureaucracy ?? entire new training system?? USPA???..... I'm pretty sure I didn't say or even elude to any of that. . You said it is time to do something. 'Find middle ground'. I just used your post to once again state that creating another instructional system is overkill. But, doing something, when not well thought out risks adding BS with little to no benefit. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nice to see you ignored the entire post WITH examples and this is the best reply you can come up with. Does the USPA govern big ways? Does it govern sky surf? Does it govern Freefly? Because I have to to jump at a GM DZ. Why do you think they require that? But way to avoid the topic, you know, the thing we are talking about! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Education does not equal a program from the USPA. That the failure of this logic. No one is saying education is not the answer, I am saying that the USPA is not the best choice. Look at base jumping. Your same argument applies, but it was fixed without dragging in the USPA. There are BASE schools and they have nothing to do with the USPA. The SAME thing can be done with WS. They can create their own organization and teach till they are blue in the face. I am also an educator. I have been a skydiving instructor since the early 90's. I have been a corporate instructor, and now I hold seminars for corporations. No one is saying education is not the answer.... Just that it is not the scope of the USPA to teach advanced instruction. When 4way was the rage, the USPA didn't create a "4way Instructor". People like Pirus helped created Skydive U. When sky surf was growing (and killing people and freaking them out) the USPA didn't create a skysurf instructor rating. There however were several schools (The Arizona Boarding School is the only one I can remember, but there was on in Titusville, FL as well). When freeflying caught on with all its additional and new dangers, the USPA didn't create a "Freeflying Instructor" rating system. Atmospheric Dolphin created the AD1 through whatever system. When gravity balls were the rage and people were dropping them left and right, the USPA didn't create a "Gravity Ball Instructor"... Instead private organizations (AD) created a rating system and most DZ's required that approval to jump with a gravity ball. When swooping was the rage, the USPA didn't create "Swooping Instructors". People like Ian Bobo created Flight 1. So NO ONE is saying education is not the answer. What several people are saying is that involving the USPA is not the answer. NOTHING is stopping DSE from creating the "First school of wing flight" and running it like so many others have done. No one is saying that education is not the answer... only that the USPA is not the organization to create, certify, or run the program. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Creating a bureaucracy of an entire new training system to be run by the USPA is like using a shotgun to try and take out a housefly. It might work, but it is going to be messy and overkill. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When I did my WS jumps... It was not in the SIM. Since I have done none since, there is little reason for me to bother to check. Also, even without the training I knew to keep my wings closed till well after I left the plane. All you need to have happen is DSE creating a 'best practice' and giving it to the DZO's and aircraft owners. They can then make that type of exit MANDATORY. "Comply or no fly". It does not take creating another bureaucracy. OK, since people get killed on big ways, you now going to support a bigway instructor system? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is a great idea.... There is zero need to ask the USPA to do something it has never done before. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, I am pointing out that creating a rating will not solve any problem. And creating yet another instructor rating will not prevent that. YES, the question is how. You seem to think that only by creating another rating system it can work. I think that the wingsuiters could create their own organization, the wingsuiters could create a standard practice and make it available to every DZO, the wingsuiters could create a standard practice and give it to the USPA. One creates additional BS organization that not even wingsuiters can agree on is the answer. The other gives DZO's, DZM's, jumpers, and aircraft owners the information and lets them decide. Yet I do not see you trying to create a "camera instructor" rating system or a "canopy instructor" rating system. Why is that? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334