Ron

No, if I was interested in WS I would find the information or find a person to give me the information. You seemed to have missed that I did that. The aircraft owner is responsible to make sure that the jumper is informed. The DZO is responsible. If the DZO or the owner does not take that action, then they have to deal with the insurance issues. The individual jumper is responsible as well. Creating a rating will not change that. So you are going to create an "aircraft separation instructor" program? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, and I have seen tandem I's not hook up laterals. I have seen SL doing harness hold jumps. I have seen TI's to busy filming a cutaway to pull the reserve handle. More so, I have seen students do things like cut away because the canopy was rectangular, not square. I have seen a student cut away because she could not get the slider back UP. So what that goes to show is that creating an instructor rating system is not actually going to fix the problem. I don't know why people are so set on creating a system when they have no proof that it will solve the problem, WS people don't even all agree, and MUCH simpler ideas could be tried. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is simpy because I have no interest in wingsuits. I did two and found it not my style. I DID find a person with experience and got a briefing from them. I did it without the guy having an 'official' rating. You are an instructor and I bet you have seen certified instructors teach things incorrectly... Like the 45* angle for separation. So simply put, just having instructors does not mean that the correct information will get out. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is not a WS instructor system in place. We do have BSR's already in place, why not use them instead of creating a bunch of new crap? No I understand that Ron, what I'm saying is there is a template in place...as far as all the other standardized forms of instruction. Any yes I also understand the argument WS is an 'advanced' discipline and no other advanced areas have it...I still maintain that's no reason 'not' to have the system in place. And it is not a reason to do it either. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, then how is creating an instructor system going to change anything? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, your argument does not match the facts. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

We already have a single USPA approved method for a wingsuit leaving a side door? Can you show me where it is? So again, if we have not even tried the easy things yet.... Why create a potential boondoggle that not even wingsuiters can agree as a good thing? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There is not a WS instructor system in place. We do have BSR's already in place, why not use them instead of creating a bunch of new crap? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This is spot on. A standard set of rules - Yes A new instructional rating system - No "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That the USPA does what it is supposed to do and try to keep the govt off of our backs.... Just like the AOPA. As you put it "staving off GOVERNMENT regulation, their administration and promulgation of most of the student program, and FAA relations, etc". Instead of trying to run programs like the "USPA Championship Demo Team" the "Group Member Program" etc. Simply put this whole issue could be fixed with a regulation or BSR about how to exit a side door plane. It does not need an entire new training program for a handful of jumpers. Even easier, it could be fixed by someone like DSE creating a best practice and sending it to every DZO that wants it. Then the DZO can decide how he wants to run HIS DZ, and he then has to deal with HIS insurance to cover HIS planes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The simple fact is that the USPA does not have to be the actor here. All that is needed is a best practice to be made and the DZO's can require it if they want. It is actually pretty simple, if you want to jump a WS at the DZO's place you will have to show up with a DSE-WS rating. This allows the DZO to make the call on how he wants to run his DZ. Even easier is that DSE could put out instructions on how to exit an aircraft and the DZO can make that mandatory. So you going to support Kate Cooper creating a big way instructor rating system? Support Dan BC's 4 way instructor rating system? Simple fact is that a program is not needed to prevent aircraft insurance issues... Just a best practice. The DZO's can implement it or not, and they have to deal with the insurance issues. Simply put, it is not needed and will just be another boondoggle like the group membership program. I would support a best practice being available. And there is no doubt DSE is experienced enough to write it. That does not mean the USPA has to create a new process. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, if DSE creates his own organization he can give out whatever proof of accomplishment he wants. There is zero need for the USPA to have to be the actor here. Right now, how does the DZO know that you are not going to hook yourself in on your tiny canopy? Right now how does the DZO know you are not going to track through the bigway you are diving at? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK, but it does not take the USPA to create that standardization. 1. It is not the role of the USPA to regulate advanced instruction.... Would you suggest the USPA also create CRW, 4way, VFS, big way, and style and accuracy instructor ratings? 2. The USPA has a terrible track record of running anything... And they have ZERO track record at actually enforcing anything. So you have an ineffectual organization trying to create something outside of its scope that it will not enforce anyway. So let the WSers create their own organization. This organization can be focused only on WS flight. And that is not going to change, you have admitted that the USPA does not enforce its own rules. The solution is that the DZO's have to enforce exits that they think will protect the aircraft. All the power is in the hands of the DZO's, they have the final say at what happens on the DZ. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It might be in the syllabus of the training materials, but that has nothing to do with creating a WSE. That information can be given without creating an entire program for a very small percentage of the USPA membership. You have just listed the failures of those programs... You have not given a reason why the USPA has to provide yet another program. Free market, build a better program and the world will beat a path to your door. No need to force the USPA to do it since only a very small percentage of members care about a WS. You have just proven my point. The solution is for you to create a program, prove it works, and then the USPA could adopt it if they felt it was needed. You have shown that YOU and others should go on your own and create a program... You have not given one valid reason why the USPA should do it. And no, the insurance issue is not proof. If you had a letter from the insurance company saying, "If the USPA creates a program we will not do anything". You don't have that, you have the incorrect assumption that they care. You could start the 'DSE wingsuit program' and if good, then the insurance program might even require it for side door aircraft. What I am saying is the USPA can't lead itself out of a wet paper bag if you gave it a samurai sword. They have not taken the lead on any issue, only followed the advancements of others, and even then they screw it up. What I am saying is that as a percentage of population WS are an infinitesimal part of skydiving. The USPA has never gotten into specific methods of instruction in such areas as CRW, swooping, or camera flying.... Simply put you are trying to change the very dynamic of the organization into something it was never intended to be. What I am saying is that you are trying to get an ineffectual organization to create a mandatory program to solve a problem that will not be solved by the program. Nope, not even close. Let me hazard a guess.... You will be one of the 'anointed' WSE's???? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When you are new, currency is a MUST in skydiving. Wanna take a guess how many people die a year that make 1,000 jumps a year vs 50 jumps a year? When I was new I incorrectly assumed that guys that made 1k jumps a year had to have a higher death rate than people that make fewer jumps. My more experienced buddy corrected me. Currency is important in any high risk sport.... More so when you are new. And with every activity, you can control your risk exposure a bit. Surfing: If you are not current, maybe you should avoid 10 foot waves till you are current. SCUBA: A 30 foot reef dive is far different that being 300 feet down 800 feet back in a cave. Me, I skydive, Cave dive, and fly. Skydiving coaching jobs and flying have pretty much pushed cave diving out of the way. So if I go cave diving after the nationals, I plan on making the first few dives basic 'beginner caves' till my skills and comfort are back up. And with experience, the standard for currency changes. With almost 6k jumps, I can go much longer between jumps with an acceptable comfort and performance level than when I had 10, 100, or even 1,000 jumps. Someone already mentioned that you can skydive infrequently with some degree of safety.... BUT you really have to control the TYPES of dives you do. For example, I am not current cave diving. But I went out a few weeks ago to a 30 foot reef and the next day to an 80 foot wreck. That was within an acceptable safety limit. If you are going to make 50 jumps a year, they had better be under big canopies and two and three ways. you should not even think about freeflying, wing suits, shooting video, big ways, or swooping till you are able to commit more time and effort into skydiving. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Thinking that the USPA creating a program will make the insurance companies happy is flawed. The insurance companies only care about one thing and one thing only.... Protecting their bottom line. It will take a track record of proven performance to make the issue dead to the insurance agencies. This can happen with or without a USPA created program. And this issue is not even brought up in this new rating program. This can be done without creating an entire new program at the USPA. And that is the primary reason why the USPA should NOT get involved with WS instruction. The USPA does not even correctly handle its current responsibilities. 1. The USPA has a terrible track record of creating any program. 2. WS is such a small aspect of the sport that other much larger issues still exist... Canopy flight collisions for example (they have killed FAR more than any WS issue). If someone like WickedWS, or DSE wanted to create a private program like SDU to certify WS instructors, it would have the same actual benefit as the USPA doing it and it would actually be run by experts in the subject matter. The USPA has a terrible track record of creating programs. * AFF was banned till Ken Colman did it anyway. After it was shown to work the USPA adopted it. * Throwouts for students were banned till Nelson (among others) did it. The USPA later adopted it. * Tandem progression was ignored by the USPA till several DZ's were readying doing it. Then the USPA adopted it. * SDU created a coaching program. Then the USPA pretty much adopted it. * Windtunnel training is still pretty much ignored by the USPA. And the simple fact is that WS is such a small percentage of members of the USPA that the USPA could save more lives by focusing on canopy related deaths. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It is a false conclusion that the insurance companies will ignore the data and just accept a program and let wingsuiting continue. The insurance companies do not want to pay for a plane, just because a person has been "instructed" does not mean they will not hit the tail. We have instructed people not to ride a malfunction in, yet people still do it. We have instructed people not to turn low, yet people still do it. We have instructed people not to cutaway at an altitude that is not survivable, yet people still cutaway at 200 feet. Further, the USPA has a pretty pathetic track record of training advances. Harness hold jumps were banned till someone else did it long enough. Throwouts were banned for students before a few DZO's used them anyway. Wingsuting itself was banned till someone ignored the rule and made a better wingsuit. If you want a program, create the program privately (Like SDU) and if it is good the insurance company will drop the matter because the issue will go away. Expecting the USPA to actually create a good program is foolish and expecting that just because the USPA blessed it will make the insurance companies happy is not reality based. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can't call it a "misfire" when it didn't misfire. It is 100% user error. Why must a novice use an "Expert" model? He does not. But since there is no "Novice" model he must either use an Expert model, or a fly like a student when using a student model. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, unless you are wingsuiting it is best to learn to adjust based off of others not some number. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Go to the DZ that is closest to your house. If you live in S.Florida you have Homestead, Clewiston, and Sebastian. Homestead is a DZ focused on training students. The DZM placed 3rd in the World in 4 way. Sebastian is a fun DZ. pretty famous for parties. They do a lot of freeflying but that is not my bag o chips. Clewiston is the DZ where I work when I am not coaching 4 way or 8 way. Fun DZ, like a club but with a turbine aircraft. DeLand is a great DZ for advanced skydiving coaching. I have maybe 500 jumps there and I was there so much that I met my first wife there. But the differences between AFF at any of these locations is negligible. Each DZ has rated instructors and each location has instructors that fit into the ranges of meet the standards to great. Your best bet is to jut go to the DZ that is close to home. A lot of being a student is sitting around waiting for good weather.... It would suck to drive 4 hours and be weathered out. Plus, I think it is a good idea to get trained at the DZ you will be jumping most at. After certification you want to have made friends to have people to jump with. Being a newly A licensed jumper is a difficult situation unless you are an attractive single chick.... So it is a good idea to make friends while you are a student and the locals will take you under their wing at most DZ's. Skydive City has the 'bomb squad' that jumps with low timers. Clewiston has the old guys. DeLand (IMO) does not have that same openness. Homestead is great for low timers. In the end.... I'd go to the DZ that is the closest. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He survived THAT jump... Give him and his mad skills more time grasshopper. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'd find a new DZ. 1. A log book is the record of your training. Without it, you have never jumped. The only times I have ever seen a DZ not offer a logbook was if they were trying to keep the student hostage so you can't leave. That may not be the case here... You might of had to buy one and didn't, but if you were my student I would make sure YOU had a record of your jumps. 2. Chipping is not a fail-able problem unless it leads to something else. If it caused you to lose track of altitude, flip, spin uncontrollably, or freak out... Yes (and maybe it did since you claim you 'locked'). 3. Tunnel is great, but thousands of thousands of skydivers learned without a tunnel. Having coached in the tunnel a bunch (I am coaching this weekend) and having an AFF rating... I'd never advance a student unless I saw their tunnel sessions. Personally... I'd go somewhere else. If you choose to stay in that program (DeLand has some great instructors) Id: 1. Get a logbook. 2. Make damn sure I knew EXACTLY what I was expected to do to pass. Tunnel or not? Since you have to wait, I'd jump again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, it can get boring. Anything can become boring if done enough. Some people never get bored, some get bored quickly, some never get bored. Me? After 5k plus jumps I'd rather go fly my plane or go scuba diving than head to the DZ these days... So I go fly, or dive. You however may never get bored, I doubt you would get bored in a few jumps. If you do get bored-just quit and do something else. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nothing you wrote was 'stupid'. Stupid would of been trying to make it back or turning low to get into the wind. You made small errors, not stupid mistakes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, I am just smart enough to know that if the FAA does get involved they have to have standards. Standards that they do not have now. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334