Ron

Trying to stop violent crime is unlikely? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And yet it also shows how people being armed is considered to be one way to protect themselves from harm. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

He was still a better choice than Kerry, IMO. But that does not mean I agree with everything he said and did. You are using the fallacy of Composition. You should know better than that. The world is not as black and white as you wish it to be. Again, you can try to blame it all on one man. But that is nothing but your hatred of him showing. Congress sent him bills....He didn't pen them. And you will notice that the financial issues were not a crisis till after the Dems took Congress. And McCain had tried to bring this up in 2005, but it was killed by Dodd and others. Again, it is not as simple as you wish to claim it is. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Rushing in and writing a 700B dollar check with no idea if it will actually help is not a wise plan. Much better to take a little time and put in a good plan than just pass something that may not work, but WILL cost the tax payers. Ever read the story about Chicken Little? A good bail out well thought out and executed well will do much more good and cost much less than just throwing money in every direction. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am also on the record for not supporting Bush. So, no not "Nuff said". You are using fallacies, and you can do much better than that. No, it is relevant. You seem to think only one person is responsible for every wrong doing in the world. Again, not very logical and you can do better than that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you think that has a higher chance than it just making the event longer and more drawn out, Yes. But the simple fact is no one knows if this plan will work. It very well could make things worse. Like I mentioned before, some want to blame Greenspan for artificially keeping rates low to encourage growth....Yet they approve of this? I think in most cases the market is best left alone. That is exactly what I meant. But the issue is some want more regulation. To them that means permanent. Investing in things you do not understand is not a basic investing principal. Very few people suggest that...And those that do are often trying to just make a quick buck...Which is also not part of a basic normal plan. The get rich quick group, yes. But that is not sound investing. One benefit that may come from all this is a return to smart financial choices. For decades people have been living on credit. That was not sustainable. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Short term it might keep the markets from falling. But the long term (Years not mths) I think an adjustment has to happen. And it seems we both agree that it sets a bad precedent. So, is the potential benefit more than the guaranteed loss in the growth of Govt control of the markets? I don't think so. Like you said....Intent. The market moves on speculation. It rises on the promise of growth and drops on the fear of losing money. But in the end it is the real value that matters. Much like the housing bubble or the internet bubble that preceded it. People think that the market is going to continue to grow and bid up the values...till people realize that the commodity has become overvalued. Then people sell trying to keep from them personally getting hit by the loss. But this is all speculation. This bill would only prolong the fall at the cost of a real impact on the National Debt and taxes, IMO. I think it was greed and failure to follow basic economic ideas. But given only the two choices you have given me....I'd have to say if I had to pick one....Tough question. I'll go with, underregulation caused most of it. But only due to greedy investors investing in commodities they did not understand....A major no-no in investing. But that does not mean the answer is more regulation, and that never means over the top regulation is the answer. And I think this bill is over the top. The markets tend to fix themselves...Even if that means it is painful for a while. Case in point...you know all those people that blame Greenspan for artifically keeping rates low? How could they disaprove of that, but approve of this? Both, IMO, would be artificially keeping the market inflated. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Just because politicians act stupid...Does not mean you or I should act stupid? You never answered this one. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What possible good did she think she could get out of this? http://www.breitbart.tv/html/184803.html "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't think anyone is sure it will work. I think it does set a bad precedent. I am not a big fan of big government and I am not a big fan of messing with the natural market forces. This could very well just delay, or even lengthen the fall....While at the same time adding to the National debt. All of it is very complex and not something I think should be rushed into. I don' t like the idea of fat cats getting golden parachutes for bad performance. I don't like the idea of no oversight...But I don't like the idea of oversight by bunch of politicians with little economics background either. Your thoughts? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah, you quoted me, but still claim you were not replying to me...Right It is pretty clear you were, it is pretty clear that you made a false assumption, and it is pretty clear you will not admit you did any of it. Like I said...Nice to know you will stand up and admit when you are wrong "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

This was replied directly to me from you: "So individuals who were not fiscally responsible should not be helped but a systemic failure of banks that had the same problem should be bailed out? High risk asset backed securities like CDOs and their off shoring to hide the risk is more of major issue with our current economy than the person who defaulted on their mortgage when their rates went into orbit. I see a double standard here just because the banks tend to wear a suit. " Busy finishing my degree, getting a new job, moving, building a house, getting engaged...ect. Glad to hear you missed me.

Congress can override a Veto you know. Also both party's tack crap onto important bills that would not pass any other way. That should be prevented. The best always occurs when the House and Senate are controlled by one party and the WH from the other. Anytime all three are the same party it gets out of control. As I said before. Just because politicians act stupid...Does not mean you or I should act stupid. Or do you think that since one person does it it should be fine for anyone to do it? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Irony score 10/10 since you made an assumption about me and will not apologize for making it. As you said..."Get it now? Geesh." Just an FYI....You lost, you know it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Except you made an accusation about people not having a degree in economics...Which was hypocritical since you don't even have a degree. Then you made an accusation about ME that was wrong. I asked you to retract it, but you were not man enough to even admit you made a false assumption. Then instead of just admitting you were wrong, you tried to distract with a cartoon. But you are correct...there is no point in me having a discussion with someone that is not man enough to admit he made a simple mistake. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

So you will not admit you made a false assumption. You will not admit you were not correct, so you want to distract. Got it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Presidents that were not fiscally responsible. But IMO better choices than the other options. You are barking up the wrong tree here Doc. I support getting out of Iraq since it costs so much and you can't force people to be "free" at the end of a gun barrel. Because I believe in personal responsibility. I think that people should strive to make smart choices based on logic not just desire. Just because politicians act stupid...Does not mean you or I should act stupid. Or do you think that since one person does it it should be fine for anyone to do it? Plus, you seem to overlook that the Presidents do not create bills, they can only ask for, sign, or veto bills. Individuals have much less outside influence over their personal finances. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If we could just get those pesky criminals to hand their weapons in....I know, lets make it illegal for people to use weapons when committing crimes!!!! We could even make it illegal for felons to own weapons!!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

First you tried to act like you had a degree in economics. Then you assumed I had a position that I never once took. A stance I never took. When I pointed that out, you just ignored the fact I never took that stance. You could apologize for making a false assumption....You could at the very least ADMIT that you did. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Did I say that? Nope. I never said anything but people who took out loans they could not afford did not show financial sense. The rest is something you never read from me. You see a double standard since you WANT to see a double standard. Good for you! I made a small fortune getting my degree and a new job. Most importantly my fiance and I didn't let anyone talk us into buying more house than we could easily afford on one salary. So, we made a good financial choice....Those that had to do creative financing did not IMO. Our house will be paid off in ~ 8years. My 06 car is paid off and we are working on paying off her 06 car. (our cars both broke down after moving here ...Otherwise we would not have bought new ones). They clearly were wrong....Just like those that thought an adjustable rate and buying more home than they could afford were also wrong. Then why did you make this comment? I don't get it???? I thought that was implying that you knew something that other posters didn't know. Sorry if I mistook that intent. And my fiance works for a bank...Her Dad worked for a bank, my Mom worked for a bank...Your point? You think that people who bought more house that they could afford and had to get an adjustable APR to be able to do it, in a market that was primed for a bubble...Made a GOOD financial choice? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, you REPLIED on threads and expressed your opinion that our way is wrong. Just because you don't START the thread does not mean anything. The simple fact is that you do try to tell us we are wrong. You don't start a thread, but you do that in your replies. You want proof? your own post shows you want us to leave you alone...But you feel free to comment on us. Really, you lose all points when you do the very thing you claim you don't do in the same post you claim you don't do it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your posts say otherwise. And yet on each thread, there you, and others like you, are posting saying those that wish to be able to be armed are inncorrect, foolish, juvinile....ect. For someone that claims not to care...You sure do post a lot about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I am all for training....But the problem comes in when they make that training impossible to pass. For example in some places you can get a CHL, but you need an LEO signature....Good luck actually getting that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The NRA will get my money when they start trying to do something about the Hughes Amendment. They didn't fight it then, and they said they would fight it later....20 years later and they still have not done anything. The NRA is almost as bad as the Brady group...Maybe worse. They are willing to give away rights. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Neither were you. They still signed on the dotted line. When my fiance and I were looking for a house we bought the house we could EASILY afford. In fact, she did not work the first year and I afforded it with no problem. It should be paid for in around 8 years...Maybe sooner. Sure, people tried to get us to buy a much bigger house. We just bought the house we wanted and could easily afford on one salary. Do we have the McMansion everyone else has? No, but we have a nice new normal sized house that was built for us. We splurged and got the fireplace ect...But again, all easily within the budget. So yeah, I do blame people for buying a house based solely on want with no regard for the ability to afford it without some crazy financing. Rates were at an all time low....Where did they think they were going to go? If the only way these people could afford such a house was some crazy numbers magic....What did they really think would happen? That they were going to be able to flip the house? My Dad and I had talked about the market busting back in 2002-2003. Anyone that thought that rates were going to stay low and prices were going to continue to rise forever...Just were not paying attention. Does that make them bad people? No, but it does mean they were not fiscally responsible. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334