Ron

Shooting is not the problem. Violence is. Take away all the spoons, people will still eat. Take away all the guns, people will still be violent. Besides, it has been proven that you cannot take away all of anything. Coke is illegal, yet you can get it. Some Country's have banned guns, yet they still have gun crime. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You did till I called you out on it. The proof is in the posts for all to see. And that's a GOOD thing? But you have claimed you don't see HC as making others pay for it.... If you raise taxes to pay for it, how is that NOT making others pay for it?!?!?!? Yes there is if you plan on raising taxes to pay for it. That is crystal clear. If you are financially responsible (which it seems you are not) it does have a connection. You just want to ignore it and then try to make others pay for it. It is relevant as an example. Then it should not matter that they are taxed say 10 points per round. Since if they never win again all would still be well according to you. You are more than willing to punish those that work hard to give to those that don't. Lame. It is not an emergency for me because I have been financially prudent and made sure my basics were covered BEFORE I bought toys. It is not an emergency for me since I have DONE what I needed to do to ensure that I stay that way. Which means I make sure my HC and disability payments are paid BEFORE I take vacations and goof off. It is only an emergency for you since you DIDN'T do these things. Don't blame me for you not doing what you needed to make sure you have your basics covered. I stopped expecting others to take care of me long before I moved out of my parents home at 18. You still expect people to take care of you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your opinion. Either way I get involved with these discussions for the same reasons you claim to get involved. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think you answered yourself. "I can understand that the SL student focuses on the exit and then the canopy flight... for the first few jumps" *I* don't, but I have seen many students that were basically told TONS about freefall and malfunctions and then told VERY little about the canopy control portion. Mostly they are told about the radio with a little conversation about left and right turns and flaring... One of my beefs with AFF (And I am an AFFI, AND I was a professional instructor for a large corporation). Is that we have a large amount of information that we try to give students. Every bit of it is important, but people only really remember 20-50% of what they are taught. Dr. Elliot Merenbloom broke down the amount of student retention this way: Teaching others/ *USING* the skills 90% Real World Application/ Practice 75% Discussion 50-60% Demonstration 30-50% Audio visual 20% Reading 10-15% Lecture 5-10% We break it down in to, "Students remember 10-15% of what they read, 20% of what you tell them, and 75% of what they do." In addition, many of our teaching methods are teacher centered, not learner centered. Example: Teacher centered: "What would you do if you saw a (insert name) malfunction?" They are going to answer, "Cutaway" and we might call it a day and consider the lesson learned. But really we just lead them to the answer. They could have answer "cutaway" without any clue what it was or why they were doing it, they just knew the answer that would get them to pass without any understanding of WHY and WHAT it really is. A better way would be to ask them when would they cutaway and see what answer they come up with. If they answer the name of a malfunction, that's great. But if they answer with, "anything that would not be safe to land" would be a better answer. "How do you know it is not safe to land?" They would answer they could not control it. I have seen students answer ALL questions asked with one word answers without really understanding the reasons behind the answers. In the end, a SL student is under supervision for many more jumps than an AFF student. This gives much more time to present the material and gives more time to really make sure the student grasps the material, not just "knows" the answer. In addition, the first 2 SL jumps are almost totally canopy control. This limits the amount of tasks needed to focus on on each jump... thus allowing more focus on the task. I think the first jump course should have VERY little information about AAD's, RSL's, how a canopy works...Ect. The more information that does not pertain to the tasks is just more information that risks limiting what information the student does retain. It is about focus. And regrettably, in most cases when a student gets off student status they start working on freefall skills and NEVER focus on spotting and canopy control skills again. I think the AFF program should have mandatory 5-10 hop n pops to teach these skills. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You seemed to have avoided these, so I will ask again: How about how the CBO thinks it will increase the Federal Deficit? http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8662052/CBO-Report-on-Cost-of-Health-Care-Bill According to CBO’s and JCT’s assessment, enacting H.R. 3200 would result in a net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion over the 2010-2019 period. How do you read a 239B increase in the Deficit? Or maybe you could look at this exchange between Sen Conrad (D, ND) and Douglas Elmendorf, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office: Conrad: "I'm going to really put you on the spot, from what you have seen from the products of the committees that have reported, do you see a successful effort being mounted to bend the long-term cost curve?" Elmendorf responded: "No, Mr. Chairman." Although the House plan to cover the uninsured, for example, would add more than $1 trillion to federal health spending over the next decade, according to the CBO, it would trim about $500 billion from existing programs -- increasing federal health spending overall. Some provisions of the bill have the potential to trim spending further, Elmendorf said, but "the changes that we have looked at so far do not represent the sort of fundamental change, the order of magnitude that would be necessary, to offset the direct increase in federal health costs that would result from the insurance coverage proposals." So the CBO seems to think it will add to the deficit... Who are you to argue? Add into it how you want to raise taxes to pay for it... well if it costs more, and you want to raise others taxes to pay for it.... How *exactly* is that not making others pay for it? And about taxing the rich to bring them down a little You said: "The rich are running away, the class disparity is growing, time to bring it back a tad." That would be like taking points away from Airspeed at the Nats to give to the last placed team. Airspeed earned those points... Why punish them for hard work? So would you propose taking points off of Airspeed to give to the bottom teams? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I bet if you took away all their spoons, that they would still eat. Proving once again that it is not the tool, but the persons ACTIONS that need to be dealt with. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't watch candles when they are burning in your house? Since you live in Canada, why are you getting all worked up about American issues? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Maybe, but all of those mass exterminations were preceded with laws that took guns away from the people they later killed. The laws adopted by the Weimar Republic intended to disarm Nazis and Communists were sufficiently discretionary that the Nazis managed to use them against their enemies once they were in power and the Nazi's passed a gun law in 1938 that made it illegal for Jews and "Non-Citizens" to own firearms. Yes, but the words of the possible attackers should be considered: Early in World War II, Japan considered invading the mainland of the United States. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, commander in chief of the Japanese naval forces and architect of the Pearl Harbor bombing, advised against invading. Twenty years prior, Admiral Yamamoto had spent a few years in the United States studying at Harvard University. Based on his experience with American culture, Admiral Yamamoto reportedly told his government, “I would never invade the United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.” If guns are not a deterrent to crime.... Then why don't armed cops get mugged? If guns cause shootings... Then why don't we have killing sprees at gun shows? Guns are a tool... That's it. Guns can be used for good, or bad. But the action is from the PERSON, not the tool. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

When you use "usually" you can't mean "all" I guess you are talking about all those that over eat.... Yes, some basic safety rules were ignored. You want to blame the spoon, I want to blame the actions. Nonsense... You want to get technical and use definitions? Addiction: compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful Guns are not a habit forming substance. Addiction: the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma. Guns are not habit forming. Basically, you have no idea what you are talking about. AND you continue to blame an OBJECT for the actions of a person. If guns kill people, then spoons make people fat. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And only 5 States require it.... Even then people vote without it. http://archive.newsmax.com/...0/12/24/104421.shtml "André Alismé died of cancer in 1997," yet records show he voted in November’s election. "# I am not a registered voter, but I voted,'' Michel Guerda, 20, admitted to the Herald. # Aldo Rios voted as well – though he isn’t even registered to vote in Miami-Dade and his family told the Herald he lives in Union City, New Jersey. # "Claudine Richard said her mother, Claudette Richard, was allowed to vote even though she was registered outside Florida. # In Precinct 146, Pamela Perez signed affirmations for seven people who gave her addresses within that precinct. Elections records show that none were registered voters. In TX all I had to bring was a bill in my name with my address on it. I didn't have to show ID, just state I am who I claim to be. All that someone would have to do is steal a piece of mail from my mailbox and claim they were me. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You don't actually read what I write do you? Do you use a fire extinguisher to put out a candle? Stop trying to start arguments "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry, that is just not true. http://www.wftv.com/news/17848541/detail.html Thousands of dead Floridians are registered to vote and some in Central Florida had ballots cast in their names long after their deaths "That is scary," said Jim Branch. Branch's mother Marjorie died in 2004 but someone voted for her in 2006. Branch had tried to get his mother removed from the voter. Channel Nine discovered 1,636 registered voters in Central Florida are dead. http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/12/24/104421.shtml "André Alismé died of cancer in 1997," yet records show he voted in November’s election. "# I am not a registered voter, but I voted,'' Michel Guerda, 20, admitted to the Herald. # Aldo Rios voted as well – though he isn’t even registered to vote in Miami-Dade and his family told the Herald he lives in Union City, New Jersey. # "Claudine Richard said her mother, Claudette Richard, was allowed to vote even though she was registered outside Florida. # In Precinct 146, Pamela Perez signed affirmations for seven people who gave her addresses within that precinct. Elections records show that none were registered voters. So sorry, that is just not true. What if that person does NOT vote? Then it would never be known. Even if you did show up and found you had already voted... There is no way to remove the false vote once it was cast. So yeah, it does happen and asking for ID is not that big a deal. In TX all I had to do was show a bill with my name and address on it. So all someone had to do was steal a piece of mail from my mailbox and go to the polls. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You and I both know those don't count... I was 82d. OK, now compare a SL I that has the same number of jumps as the newest AFFI.... About 400-500. And that is a valid point... and I have agreed that AFF teaches better Freefall skills. The question is *overall*, not just freefall. The key there being LATER. Canopy skills and spotting are life saving skills... Chipping in freefall will not kill you. For students, I would say smaller DZ's are better. They learn more since the whole DZ is pretty much geared towards them. As a SL I and an AFF I I also know what I am comparing. People can disagree. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Asking someone to prove they are a citizen prior to having them vote is not taking away a right. It is making sure that they are allowed. Glad to see that you are more interested in misreading things to start a fight than using any logic. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I don't know about your exact area, but in most places a picture ID is not required to vote. Florida, Hawaii, Louisiana, South Carolina and South Dakota require ID. An Indiana appellate court declared that it was not legal to require an ID to vote. http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2009/09/no-id-no-vote-voter-id-law-not-okay-in-indiana.html "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yeah it does happen... But you know what I have also noticed? I was pulled over at a checkpoint, I had a buddy who was black following me in his car... He got pulled over as well. They started asking us both questions. I answered them... He gave them grief about why they "stopped a black man". Our beliefs colored the reason for the police's actions. I was pulled over at a random checkpoint.... He thought he was pulled over for "driving while black". "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure, lets change some words but make it more realistic: I think everyone should show ID to buy their handguns I don't see why showing an ID to buy a handgun is such a big deal. You already have to show an ID to buy a handgun.... Why not have to show an ID to vote? Would you agree to having who you voted for recorded? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Now you are buying into liberal folklore. Sure, there was growth, EXCEPT WHERE THERE WAS NOT. If you dismiss the bad when it is convenient and hurts your theory... Yeah you will 100% of the time. But in the real world you can't just ignore the bad and still claim victory. Clearly you were not around then. Misery index ring a bell? (Misery Index = Unemployment rate + Inflation rate) Under Cater it averaged 16.26... Higher than any other President. Under Reagan it dropped 9.61. Inflation during Carters time as President was the highest it had been since WWII. It dropped once Reagan was in office. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Everyone. I think everyone should have to show ID to vote as well. I don't see why showing an ID it is such a big deal. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But it does make both of them PUBLIC. And I think that is a company does restrict the lawful possession, then they should have to screen EVERYONE that enters. Otherwise they only restrict law abiding citizens. I disagree with the public issue... If my tax dollars go towards it, then I should continue to have my rights under the Constitution. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No offense, but I am willing to bet you have never done SL. SL has some serious advantages over AFF. It also has some serious disadvantages. You have to weigh them all. SL encourages self dependence... AFF encourages dependence. SL does a much better job of teaching canopy skills, AFF does a much better job of teaching Freefall skills. I tend to think that a self dependent student with good canopy skills is SAFER than a dependent student with great Freefall skills. SL takes more time... Time that can be spent learning. AFF is fast. I see MANY more SL students that can spot than AFF grads. I see MANY more SL students that have no issue leaving at 3k. I have seen AFF grads freeze in the door. Does that mean that an AFF program can't teach self dependence, spotting and good canopy control? Nope, but right now it does not really do it IMO. Same thing with SL... A proper SL program can teach FF skills. I had a guy once tell me that I would NEVER be as good in freefall as him since I learned SL and he learned AFF. Funny, I have an open class medal in 8way at the Nationals... He must have two. Simply put, most people get off student status and work on freefall skills.... Very few get off student status and work on spotting, low exits, and canopy control. The instructional programs should cover ALL these things, but only one covers most of them right now. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If I were you, I'd quit and never jump again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Ron you still have to show how public transportation = public place. Done thanks. Keep lobbing softballs, they are fun to knock right out of the park. If you do not see the basic understanding that the Founding Fathers considered the right to self defense to be a basic right of the people that should not be infringed.... Then it is truly impossible to have a decent conversation with you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What is ignorant is how you think we are saying a gun is a spoon. No one EVER said that. We did say they are both TOOLS. And that the tool is not responsible for the act. You want to blame the tool (guns) for the act (killing). Therefore you must accept that the tool (spoons) are responsible for the act (over eating). And your being unreasonably prejudiced is clear. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334