Ron

As a percentage, but not as a total dollar amount. Yes, which is why I said tax breaks to lower income brackets sustain an economy, while tax breaks to higher income brackets grow the economy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure it is, they all had the same buffet. But YOUR example is not correct. The lower levels of income actually use MORE of the Govt and put less in. So when a rebate is owed those that pay more and eat less should get the most rebate. The economy took a hit after 9/11 and maintained growth till a bunch of social programs designed to give everyone everything blew up. The wars didn't help. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A standard and normal are not the same thing. standard: something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model. #1 we have not agreed that what you want should be the standard. Only YOU have said that. Also only you are claiming to be an authority. normal: conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural. Since we have not agreed on "standard", we cannot agree to "normal" Because your OPINION, is not a fact. And you don't know my effort, therefore you are also guessing. Your lame childish attempts to make this personal is just another example of you thinking only you could be correct. And you can't refute that HC is not an right, or more accurately you can't prove that only YOUR vision of HC is correct. You want the country to be socialist, yet it was not founded on socialism. Your data has been countered time after time... yet you still claim that only your data, and only your opinions matter. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Totally comparable when you are trying to decide the issue we were discussing. All that does is SUSTAIN the current economy, it does not GROW it. You have not provided anything but your opinion to challenge that position either. Total opinion with no data to back it up. And we all know what a failure Carter was. And we all know that Clinton's term ended with a recession as well. Once you stop trying to blame all the bad on one party.... You might be worth discussing things with. As it stands now, your 100% pure partisan spin makes you nothing more than a dem fan boy, no better than a Rush Limbaugh. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"Normal" as defined by YOUR definitions only. That's not normal. I think I've put more effort than most and you are just guessing. You keep spouting your opinions as fact and attempting to minimize anyone's opinion who does not agree with you as "guesses". Yet all you have done is spout your opinion and expect it to be held to a higher standard. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nonsense. the fairest way would be to give it back based on how much you paid in. You and 3 others go out to eat dinner. The bill is 100.00 and you put in 10 dollars, Bob puts in 30 dollars and Mike puts in 60 dollars. There was a special and the bill was reduced to 90 bucks. You think the fair way to refund the difference is to give each person 3.33?????? Arguable. The poor do not create jobs. If you give the break to the rich they will invest it. Investment creates growth, spending only sustains it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The system does not create disparity. People stay in the situation they can handle and want. You want others to pay for what you want without you having to put in any effort. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I was watching a comedian once.... He said that almost ALL humor hurts someone. Blonde jokes, lawyer jokes, skydiver jokes, race jokes.... All of em make fun of some person/party/activity. We are getting WAY too over sensitive in the world. A joke is most times only a joke. I don't see any problem with illegal alien jokes anymore than me not having a problem with people dressing up as bounces, or making skydiver jokes. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I'll call the team and see if they can put it on YouTube. The stuff they did was AMAZING. In no order, but the things I can remember: 1. They spelled "F" "U" "N" in freefall 2. They had 8 people form an arrowhead and two people start spinning about 100 feet away. One of them separated and headed at the 8 way, when the "ball" got there, the 8 "pins" broke apart... yeah, bowling. 3. They built a star, putter, and a golfball. The putter knocked the ball (Rook) into and through the center of the star. That's all I can remember.... But way cool. We broke the handprop into two 4ways and did the world record draw with Shannon judging. He then acted like a camera flier and fell on us. We thought we were doing good stuff till we saw the GK's slaughter us. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You already know, but the benches caused two teams issues during the event. Airspeeds R1 and Annie's R2. We (Annie's playthings) busted round one cause we held it for 4.8 seconds. OUCH!!!!! I have nothing but respect for Annie, she took a beating on R2 due to the bench issue, checked with the pilot to make sure her rig was not torn, and then made it to the formation. After they gave Airspeed a rejump, they inspected the plane and saw the issue we had and gave us a rejump as well. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Option #3 Get all the jumps already judged (and lock the judges into a small room to keep quiet) THEN stop things for 20 mins to make a nice presentation and show all three jumps on the big screen one right after the other in the order they were jumped. This way we would not have had to be shut down for an hour when we finally had good weather AND could have had some pomp and BS. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you knew what it took to make that World Record, you would not call it boring. BTW, surfing is boring to watch. I surf and can appreciate it, but it is still boring to watch. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I dated a girl that had BIG connections in the Democrat party and they said the same things. That does not make that true either. One story does not equal a data set. Dems did the same thing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You can't just make Dr's, Nurses, and supplies pop out of thin air. How would you handle a crisis with 300 people needing care and only the facilities/staff/supplies to handle 100? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Already happened. Read up on the Gun Control Act of 1968. It BANNED any gun that did not have a "sporting purpose" from being brought into the US. Read up on The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986. Which made it illegal for legal citizens to own a machine gun unless it was already registered. Thus BANNING them for civilians. Read up on President George H. W. Bush's and how on March 14th 1989 he banned the importation of certain guns deemed assault weapons into the United States. Read up on the now defunct 1994 Assault Weapons BAN. It BANNED several weapons. Gun bans clearly do happen. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry, he knows what he is talking about. I am willing to bet you would not be able to do a 15 on that dive. As Bill said... You sound like those guys that claim that the reason people take up freeflying is because they can't get stable. Force did an amazing job.... The fact you don't think it is amazing says more about your ignorance of the skills needed than anything else. And before you think that is some sort of PA.... Ignorance just means you don't know... And unless you are one of the spaceland 4 or a handfull of others, you are ignorant of what it takes to make a world record. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Saying over and over, "I like it better" is not a discussion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing. Not one person has discussed the *issues* I raised. Instead they just keep yelling how they are right. The best most have been able to bring is an emotional response and avoidance of a resonable discussion of the issues. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I never said my personal opinion. I base my opinion on teaching skydiving for 13 plus years in several different methods. You are tyring to use your personal examples as some sort of proof. And a single data point will never equal a data set. It should not be that hard to grasp... 5>3 Also 5 jumps with a focus on one thing is worth more than 3 focusing on several. A very simple concept to grasp. You have not brought any data, just stated your personal opinion over and over. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You are showing blind partisan politics here. Olympics... Didn't care. I actually think that Brazil should have gotten since they had never had one before. Also, while some think it would have been an economic boom.... It has been shown to not really bring in as much as you have to spend. Still, it would have been a way to build the Chicago economy in a way that was not a total waste. Nobel... Really????? He was nominated TWO weeks after he took office and based on what he *might* do. You don't give a Nobel Prize in Physics for what you *might* do. You don't give the Nobel prize for literature for what you *might* write. There were so many other people that deserved it for what THEY HAVE DONE. To give it away before he did anything is nothing but pandering. I agreed with Carter winning it.... He DID SOMETHING. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You compared your abilities with a similar AFF student at that time? You held spotting/packing/canopy control competitions? Also, a single data point does not make a data set. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The ISP was not needed when SL was the norm. The AFF program made it so that the deficiencies of the AFF program had to be covered.... So "coach jumps" were created. Technically, the ISP was to allow cross training from one method to another. But when the SL program was the norm... there was no need for a coach program since it was already covered. When AFF took off people saw how it had many failings and created a new program to cover those areas. And the SL program had the "coach jumps" from the beginning. AFF had to add a rating and a program to match it. In my 12 years teaching I have taught under both AFF and SL, ISP and non ISP. Right now I just moved and don't work at a DZ in my new area. I'm sorry you are not really getting my intent then. I think given an average student and an average instructor, that the SL program places more emphasis on skills that are more important for staying alive than AFF. I think knowing how to spot, knowing how to fly a canopy, and being able to do a low exit is more important than turns, loops, and rolls. Further, once a person gets licensed they focus on Freefall skills and rarely, if ever, do they focus on spotting, canopy control, and low exits. I think the fact that SL emphasizes those skills early on, and how AFF only really gives lip service to them later gives the nod to SL. 1. My 10 second SL students were spotting (with me making sure they were correct). My 30+ second students were spotting with me mostly doing nothing but checking like a normal jumper would. My SL graduation checkout students spotted without me even looking down. I know AFF grads with 100 jumps that could not spot a hop n pop from 3k, much less a group jump from 10k. 2. Every SL student of mine that ended up with a license could really pack a rig. Many had packed their FIRST jump and EVERY jump till they had a license. I know AFF grads that don't know how to pack, yet somehow got signed off. 3. Take a SL student with 20 jumps and an AFF student at 20 jumps and bring the plane over the DZ at 3k. Which student do you think is going to get out faster? *Could* and AFF/ISP program do all of this? Yes. Does it happen? No. I think AFF/ISP just barely gives lip service to those skills. For example, the low exit in AFF? I have seen it as high as 5k and their idea of spotting is looking for the green light. ONE low exit is not going to get a person over their fear of low exits. ONE time spotting (if it is even done) is not enough to teach real spotting. AFF is hands down better to teach freefall skills. But I think the AFF/ISP program is lacking compared to the old SL in spotting, canopy control, and low exits. And those are life saving skills, 360 turns/back loops ect are not. The program I liked best was the one where the students learned to pack in the FJC. The first time they ever jumped, it was their pack job. They did 5 SL jumps then a 5 second delay, then a 10 second delay then a modified AFF style program that followed levels 4 - 7. It also had many of the "coach" jumps long before the coach program or ISP existed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I have never said anything different. What I have said is canopy control, spotting, and low exits will save your life much more than turns in place. And that AFF's focus is clearly on freefall skills. While SL's initial focus is clearly on canopy control. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I said "unless they pay for coaches". Anyone notice that a coach program was not needed till AFF? AFF was found lacking in many areas and the coach program was put into place to cover those failings. Anyone notice that canopy classes were not needed till AFF? Anyone notice that packing classes were not needed before AFF? My old SL students knew how to pack by the time they were on freefall, at one DZ they learned to pack BEFORE they ever jumped. My old DZ students were spotting the plane before they were off student status... Not just looking out and sorta spotting, they were spotting. But since I have worked at 4 DZ's over the last 12 years I have found that no two instructors are equal, no two programs are the same, no two DZ's have the same focus. The one constant I have seen is that by the very nature of the SL program it consistently teaches canopy control and spotting better. SL students are also not afraid of low exits. I know AFF grads that still can't pack and still can't spot. A 3 k exit scares them to death. I used to take all the 50-200 jump AFF grads to a smaller DZ and teach them to spot. For many it was their first real below 4k exit, and their 2nd hop n pop ever. Yet these same jumpers had already spent time in the tunnel to work on their freefall. I still find the AFF program lacking in many areas. I wish the AFF program had a min of 5 low exits that the student had to spot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The percentages of people that were shot that carried vs the number that were shot that didn't carry is not going to show valid data. You would have to compare the percent that carried and *were shot* to the percentage that *carried and were not shot*. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334