Ron

It was explained, you ignored it and the data presented since you didn't like it. It is simply because under AFF students are often ignored once they are done with level 7 unless they pay for coaches. But I have mentioned this before and you ignored it before. And how the task load on SL jumps for canopy control is less. More focus = more learning. The same reason you learn and teach BRM before you teach people the Australian peel off And I covered that... You have mentioned only ONE type of learner and ignored all the others since YOU are that type of learner. You also have not provided anything but your personal example... again a personal opinion doe snot make a data set no mater how much you FEEL it does. Instead you acted like AFF was better as a fact. How is that any different? Like I said, it is impossible to continue the discussion as long as you ignore the points raised and instead focus on your personal favorite method based on your personal experiences only. And that is *exactly* all you have done. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And I assumed that you were smart enough to know what you were doing, and had communication skills that were sufficient and that you didn't just make a mistake And I still do think you knew exactly what you were doing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That's not talking down to people huh? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

True, but I think it would be even more stupid to just spend more and ignore the waste. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

What I don't see is any correlation on how many people that were NOT in the study were carrying a gun. They compared the number of people SHOT and took how many had a gun on them, then compared them to the ENTIRE population. What is missing is how many people carried and were NOT shot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A major difference is I have provided examples and referenced trade papers on adult education. You have said what you LIKED better and then claimed that your opinion alone made it better. Your opinion, while compelling, does not turn anacdotal evidence into data. You liked AFF better. Great, while that makes the program better for you in your situation.... You have ignored any evidence given and instead replied with how much more you LIKED AFF. You claimed that you learned canopy control and spotting after AFF... But you had done SL jumps both civilian and military prior to your AFF experinece. So to claim that AFF teaches canopy control and spotting as well as SL is not a claim you can make based on your educational experience. You have only repeated the story how AFF corrected you from chipping in freefall. Granted, AFF teaches freefall skills better than SL. You have constantly ignored my point that that is only one part of a students required skill set, and how that skillset is both the least important a d the one they will work on most. It is impossible to continue the discussion as long as you ignore the points raised and instead focus on your personal favorite method based on a single incident. I was not trying to discuss your personal situation, you insisted on ONLY discussing it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

While you may LIKE IT MORE, that does not make it better. Children like the imediate gratification of ice cream and would eat it all day long. That does not make it better for them. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I have SL, Tandem, AND AFF ratings. So your theory does not hold true. Also I have found a good number of instructors say the method that pays the most is the best system "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You do realize that some people think that real killing (hunting) creates an appitite for violence than fake killing (video games, movies..ect)? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yet places like Mexico that have really strict gun rules has increasing violence seem to show that it does not work. And before someone claims that all those guns are coming from the US. Many of this weapons are full auto post samples that are not legal in the US unless you are LEO or an SOT. Until you stop violence, you will always encounter violent criminals. So while it might be best not to face an armed criminal... It is pretty clear that gun rules are not going to prevent a criminal from getting them. Reference Mexico having guns that are illegal there and in the US and the drug problem the US has. I don't think actions that only hurt the individual should be banned, only actions that hurt others. But I also realize that banning a tool does not stop actions... Again refernce drugs in the US. There have been studies that have shown that after gun laws were put into place that the rate of suicide by GUN reduced, but the overall rate of suicide didn't. And that's ignoring the fact that bans don't really work. You are talking about some magical removal of all weapons... That has been shown not to be possible. But they will work better than other plans like bans that have been shown not to work. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That is not even close to what I said. So why is it OK to demand an ID to buy a gun, but not to vote? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

BTW you do know that you have have an ID to buy a gun right? Why are you not up in arms about that? You think we should remove the ID check and the background check to buy a gun? If voting were like buying a gun. 1. You would have to fill out a form listing who you were going to vote for. This form would have to be filed FOREVER. 2. You would have to produce a valid Govt ID. 3. The polling location would have to make a phone call to make sure you are not a criminal. (and some States they charge to make that phone call). 4. In some States, you would have to leave and then come back 3-5 days later in order to actually vote. Now why do you think all these are fine for buying a gun, but it is wrong to ask for ID to vote? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

OK so you think it is not unconstitutional to require an ID to buy a gun.... Why would it be to vote? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sorry I was trying to be short since I am on my phone and typing can be a pain. I'll try again. A faster airspeed can be good. The problem is that when you add lead, you take the available surface area and add (for lack of a better word) wingloading. While your weight will increase, your surface area will not. So now your control surfaces have more weight to move. For max speed of movement, the less wingloading will result in a faster move. Newtons 2nd law states that the amount of effort to create a result is affected by mass. The more mass the more energy it is going to take to start and to stop movement. So if you add a ton of lead, it is going to be more difficult to start and stop a move. You could claim that the added airspeed will give you more control ( and drag increases at the square of an airspeed).... But I personally have found that it dies not seem to provide a benefit. My Airspeed comment was aimed at the fact those dudes (and dudetts) are blazing fast and if they thought adding lead would make them faster... I think they would be doing it. Yet they are not. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Not really. Do you see everyone on Airspeed wearing lead? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Only if you can get EVERYONE's access reduced. And history has shown you are not able to do that. Can you agree that it would be better to be armed when faced with an armed opponent? I did that for a reason.. Notice I am not supporting banning all those things? I say you work on behavior, not tools. Well consider that 2/3rds of those deaths are either suicides or drug related crime.... Both already illegal BTW... That leaves 1/3rd to accidents and violence against innocent people (innocent as defined as not being engaged in criminal activity). You want to reduce gun crime? 1. Better mental health screening to prevent suicides. 2. Keep kids away from drugs. 3. Keep kids away from criminals. 4. Teach kids about firearms. 5. Lock up your firearms away from children. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I think that if your income is below a certain level that the ID card should be free. Now, do you think it is unconstitutional that I have to show a valid govt issued ID to buy a gun? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If you really wanted to reduce deaths, you would ban over eating, smoking, drinking...ect. All kill FAR more people each year. I am not willing to punish law abiding citizens for an *attempt* that it might reduce deaths. Especially when you consider the two largest areas are suicides and crime related. Drug crimes and suicides count for 2 out of 3 gun related deaths each year.... Sure and I am also sure we can agree that the "average" person is not likely to walk into a crowd and attempt to kill people with either a knife or a gun. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Only if you think criminals will suddenly turn them in. DC, NY, LA all have bans on these types of weapons and criminals still use them. The only thing they have done is make it so law abiding citizens can't own them. So your solution is to follow another path that has been shown not to work? And in the process punish people that have done nothing wrong? You are willing to deny someones rights under the BoR in the hopes that it *might* do something? Criminals are already not allowed to own firearms. It is illegal to carry under the influence. Just like having an AAD is a good option, it is better to avoid the situation where you might need it. You seem to think that anyone with a CHL is gunning for a fight.... Statistics on CHL holders prove your point wrong. Statistics show that the majority of gun deaths are suicides, stats have also shown that people who are going to commit suicide will do it with whatever they can and that gun bans do not reduce the RATE of suicides, only the method. Remove suicides and the next highest group is criminal on criminal violence.... Well heck, they are already not allowed to own guns. 1. Don't commit suicide. 2. Don't hang out with criminals and don't engage in criminal activity. Those two alone will reduce your chances of being involved in violence more than any gun ban. 3. Next you could actually follow the hundreds of laws already in place. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No, I am saying people have to prove they are able to vote before they are able. The 2nd says you have the right to keep and bear arms.... Yet you say that has limits. Why do you support EVERY Amendment blindly BUT the 2nd? Huh, I tend to think you count 1, 3, 4, 5,...ect. It is like the 2nd does not exist to you. BTW you do know that you have have an ID to buy a gun right? Why are you not up in arms about that? You think we should remove the ID check and the background check to buy a gun? If voting were like buying a gun. 1. You would have to fill out a form listing who you were going to vote for. This form would have to be filed FOREVER. 2. You would have to produce a valid Govt ID. 3. The polling location would have to make a phone call to make sure you are not a criminal. (and some States they charge to make that phone call). 4. In some States, you would have to leave and then come back 3-5 days later in order to actually vote. Now why do you think all these are fine for buying a gun, but it is wrong to ask for ID to vote? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

A good fall rate is judged more by all of your teams body positions than by some number on a display. Your biggest person should be in a good position, if that means they need to wear a lose jumpsuit then fine. Your lightest should be in a good body position, if that means they need lead... Fine. If everyone is wearing lead.... Well then that's just silly. If everyone is wearing sleeves... Again silly. It is more about relativity than raw speed. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Are you using them all for camera? Or do you do 4way with them, and then camera, then jump on a big way...ect? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

But you claimed that guns make violence "painless".... "The thing about guns is that they make it so much more painless for many people to be violent. " So have you or have you not used a firearm to inflict violence? Or are you making a guess? Well, then I hope you are allowed to carry a weapon if you need it. Actually my point was that outlawing guns will not stop CRIME. It will also not stop gun violence as evidenced by the outlawing of drugs. And more evidence is the number of criminals that are not allowed to have guns but somehow use them anyway. So just to make my point crystal clear: 1. Even if you could wave a magic wand and get rid of every single weapon, there will still be violence. All you really do is put people like yourself at an automatic disadvantage due to your smaller size. "I eliminated fists from my postulated situation because I'm only 5'4" and middle-aged. I'd lose most fistfights. " And a recent study has show that disabled people are more likely to the victim of crime. http://www.thesunnews.com/253/story/1096829.html Not everyone is capable of fighting to defend themselves. You are 5'4" and maybe 100 pounds, my Dad is 70... Criminals prey on the weak, they don't attack 200 pound body builders. 2. No matter how many laws you pass, criminals don't pay attention to them. Do you really think a criminal that is planning to kill someone will not do it with a gun since using a gun would be illegal? Example after example has proven that to be false. 3. The bans that most people think are great really don't do anything. The AWB that so many love does nothing. The DOJ released a report that showed that even before the 94 AWB that so called "assault weapons" were used in LESS than 3-6% of crimes. Why ban something that has been shown not to be a problem? The CDC released a report in Oct 2003 saying that they could find NO correlation between gun laws and reductions in crime. Why do more of what has been shown not to do anything? 4. Guns are just tools. They do not turn a law abiding citizen into a killer. They don't sneak out at night and go on killing sprees. Those are my points. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Being popular is a better way to establish rank than productivity? You think being senior is a better way to establish rank than productivity? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have been violent with and without a firearm? If not, then aren't you just guessing? Sure outlaw CRIME... But guns are not crime. They are only a tool. You want to outlaw a tool, not a crime. Then why did you use one? "Of course, does that mean that we should just blow off outlawing crime because we can't eliminate it? " "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334