Ron

Of course! You are free to give up as many of YOUR rights as you wish. Not what I said at all... .Read it again, and try again. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

More so back to the topic, ask Chief Justice Roberts about the 2nd as it applies to self defense. Maybe you should ask Justice Scalia about it? Maybe you should ask Justice Kennedy what he meant by his, “settler in the wilderness” imagery. And maybe you should look at the majority opinion in Heller v DC: ***1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And we were not talking about tanks... we were talking about self defense and personal firearm ownership. But as always, you won't stay on topic you can't defend when you can distract in a different direction that you think you can win. You want to turn this into "You don't need a tank for self defense", that's not what we were discussing. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And would YOU support them? Not asking *IF* it happens, I am asking if you would support it. And all of your examples are a FAR cry from a State sponsored religion. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

No one is forcing you to be here. You said that "the tenor of the times" can reduce or add to the second. You saying that leads to believe that you are fine with it.... Me asking if you say and feel the same about another Amendment is a logical direction to head. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Then you would support a State sponsored religion if the " tenor of the times" changed? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Most consider it to include weapons that the average troop would carry.... But I'll be honest, I don't fear a citizen with a tank either. But to try and claim that self defense would not be a valid reason that the FF intended is pure BS. The FF stated several times that self defense was a persons right. It is up to him to prove it was not to REMOVE a right. And the evidence does not support his position. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The hits, they keep on rollin' "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And just blindly blaming it on the other party is also a waste of time.... That does not stop you or Lucky from doing it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

And you and he have both ignored the Carter years impact on the economy, the tech boom and BUST under Clinton and the incredible jump in deficit spending so far under Obama. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You need to look up the legal definition of assaulted. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

REALLY?!?!?!?!?!?!? Well that does explain a lot. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Too bad your skills didn't include riding in a dune buggy in Mexico while drunk. I have posted so much data that you just ignore it all.... And at least I can spell. Done so many times... But it boils down to our differences: Ron: Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Lucky: Take the fisherman's hard work from him and give to those that are hungry, but don't want to work and risk smelling like fish to eat fish. No, only you spout 100% rhetoric. They did, you ignored it like normal.... Again: "as long as I get mine and someone else pays" is your motto. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Answered with a quote from a founding father already to look at the situation and the intent. But hey look at the 2nd... It says SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. So if you want to just look at the words, no gun bans or limits are legal. Yes, and as I have already shown, self protection was a given... They were setting up a govt and putting limits ON that govt to prevent what they just had to do. Prove he didn't. He said it in plain English... The 2nd said "shall not be infringed". How is that a hard concept to grasp? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Great question.... Since there has not been a draft since the year after I was born, I have not thought about it. My initial thought is that combat arms soldiers should be armed all the time after BASIC. I see no harm in a trained person with a weapon. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

I disagree.... Would you support the theory that most people's desire to have GFZ's is more about getting excited about removing gun rights than actual danger? Because most people who want campus carry only want it for people who have CHL's. And still, those are also illogical thoughts.... A CHL holder is much less likely than the population as a whole to shoot someone. Incorrect... Otherwise CHL holders would be allowed to carry. And the stuff I hear is the classic anti-gun nut who dislike the idea of anyone having a firearm. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have not read the FF's positions on guns then. May I suggest the Federalist Papers and offer these quotes found through a quick Google? And as for interpretations..... They considered self-defense a given right... They were writing a document about *governance*. To even attempt to claim that the Founding Fathers did not intend the right to self-defense is not a position that can be defended. If so, please find a quote from them saying citizens DON'T have the right to self-defense. I have said that the individual is ALLOWED to give up those rights.... Soldiers do exactly that. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Yes, he did. Using that logic, we all already pay for your HC since we use your employer, and you all have paid for my civilian care since I am sure you have all shipped a package. Bad logic. Yep, you want what he EARNED???? Join the Army just like he did. Well when you look at the data that says 91m people do not currently pay Federal Taxes and that it is expected to grow to 41% of people not paying taxes.... If would be FREE for them.... Unless you plan on taxing them? So, unless you plan on taxing people who are currently not paying anything.... then it is free for some. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

THREE, you clearly are not looking at what is currently going on. Carter lead that, Reagan had to try to turn around the economy while trying to bust the USSR. GWB inherited the recession from Clinton (now, unlike you I don't blame this things on party's... There are plenty of reasons why the Clinton recession happened). GWB then had to deal with not only the recession, but 9/11. Again, if you look at the data, Obama is spending at a rate that makes anyone else look pennywise and thrifty. But your partisan blinders prevent you from seeing that. You bitch about debt, but Obama is increasing the deficit faster than any other person EVER. Where is your outrage at that? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Nope, not even close. I think that in a situation that is *designed* to stress a person out with no escape AND when that situation is one that that person is not allowed a single stick of gum by design to facilitate that process, AND is a situation that is proven to not be a risk, AND a person volunteers to accept those conditions that they can overlook a person's 2nd amendment rights. Now, care to list the number of attacks on BASIC training units by an armed attacker? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You do know that in most States it is already illegal to carry a weapon concealed without a permit or license? But people break it all the time.... What makes you think people that are already breaking one law, will obey another? Not true. AFAIK, only one State allows it by law, Utah. 27 States don't allow it at all. A few States leave it up to the school. You really think that a felon that is: 1. Already proven to not follow laws. 2. Illegally possessing a firearm. 3. Illegally carrying a firearm. Will suddenly start obeying firearms laws when they get to a school zone? So you think a guy that is: 1. Illegally working for a criminal. 2. Illegally carrying a firearm. Will suddenly start obeying laws when he gets to a school zone? Both those thought processes make zero sense. You seem to be talking about criminals....So, would you allow a CHL holder to carry at a school? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

That's simply because you have never been in Basic training. In college, you can walk out anytime you like. You are not under direct control 24/7 like you are in basic. If a Professor starts yelling at you and cussing you out.... You can just drop his class and walk away. BASIC is designed to stress you out and wear you down physically, mentally, and emotionally. It is the most stressful situation most people will ever face. You are not allowed civilian clothes in BASIC, you are not allowed books in BASIC, why would they allow you guns when they don't allow you gum? Additionally, care to list the number of shooting deaths at a BASIC training unit caused by an attacker? You should learn more about the differences before you make strong opinions about the differences or similarities. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

There you go making up stuff again. No, you have claimed to be an economics expert as well. I can't believe you had the balls to post this: Irony score off the freakin chart!!!! "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Sure, how about in this very post of yours? "I would just expect you to be just as vocal about it on military installations. " No, it is basic training. Do you think a citizen should be allowed to carry when he goes shopping? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Now if you would just quit running from questions you are afraid to answer we would be getting somewhere. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334