diverdriver

The procedure says that you can not relight the engine above 21,000. So, they had some time to think about this from 41,000 to 21,000. We are supposed to hold a speed of about 240 knots to keep them windmilling which will keep the hydraulic pumps going in the engine. This plane is all about hydraulics to keep it flying in control. Then, when ready you have to increase the rate of descent (no, not pointing directly at the ground in a dive) to attain at least 300 knots. Then you are supposed to have the ignition on and bring the thrust levers to idle. This should light the engines and they are supposed to be started together. On the CVR it seems they chose to try and start only one engine at a time. Why? I don't know. It's another mystery that seems to only have an explanation of "inexperienced" attached to it. What are the hiring minimums at that airline? They were hiring first officers with 500 hours total time. That's right. The same TT necessary to get into a 182 and fly jumpers at most DZs. See the problem develop here? Now, because they don't have enough people to upgrade they hire "street captains" (people who are new to the company and go straight to the left seat of the plane). This crew was fairly inexperienced in this plane. But, it was all legal to the FAA. Really, no reg could have prevented them deciding to ignore performance charts and climb to an altitude they weren't capable of and then switch seats (just for fun) and fly at such a slow speed with complete disregard that they flamed out both engines. It wasn't physical skill lacking here it was judgement. Poor judgement in a high performance aircraft with a very critical swept wing and poor training totalled up into a crash that fortunately only took the lives of the crew and no one else. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Why these engines wouldn't start again: The term "core-lock" is being thrown around. This is where after an engine flame out a very hot engine cooled very fast "locks" from rotating. Max operating temp on these engines is 874 Centigrade. One of the engines on this accident aircraft reached the neighborhood of 1700 C before flaming out. That's over doulbe it's max operating temp. And you expect it to come back from that? These guys noted several times that their airspeed was declining and did nothing until just before the stall to try and request a lower altitude to gain speed and keep flying. It's like seeing a jumper go "wooowhooo!" just as they snap that toggle hook at 100 feet. You know they're screwed but in that moment they can't see it themselves. The procedure for relighting an engine in flight while windmilling (using your forward speed to turn the engine) calls for a MINIMUM speed of 300 knots. The highest recorded airspeed was about 235 knots. Not even close. I don't see how ALPA can put out a statement saying they did it right. A bunch of pilots are debating this very issue on Flightinfo.com. It's a very ugly thing. People want to defend these guys because they were "nice guys". I'm sure they were. But they did something incredibly dumb and unprofessional. It wasn't their plane to go screwing around with. Just because there were no passengers on board does not absolve us from following company procedure when operating a 20 million dollar aircraft. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Yes they were. They were too heavy to climb that high. They did not check the charts to see if the conditions were ok to go that high. That IS reckless. They just assumed it and paid with their lives. Then they edit: did not follow the procedure correctly after the failure. It took about 20 minutes to descend from 41,000 and they covered about 100 miles. They crashed about 2-3 miles from my parents home in Jefferson City, MO. I also fly this same type of aircraft. I have read the whole CVR transcript that is available at the NTSB. I sat with my jaw on the floor as I read what was happening in that cockpit. Just before, during, and just after the engine flameout the pilots had switched seats. For what reason I haven't read yet. But this captain was not certified to fly this aircraft from the right seat. That was only one of many things that have me dismayed about this accident. I work for an airline other than this one. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

OOOOOh Ooooh!! Faith No More. Original lead singer.

Many pilots, including myself never knew how big skydiving in the USA was until I started flying skydivers. It's like I had my eyes opened. Sadly, most of the pilots do not realize what is out there. That's why WE, the skydivers and jump pilots, must keep a vigilante waltch and EXPECT that no one else sees us. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

That's just it! They aren't "violating" anything. DZs normally are at un-towered fields in Class G or E airspace. It is NOT a violation to fly over a DZ without talking to anyone. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Don't get me wrong. I think these guys needed to get spanked. But... the "box" is now open.

The problem with this prosecution is that it was done by the STATE of Florida. That's just wrong. Aviation is the perview of the FAA and should be handled within the FAA rules. Don't get me wrong. These guys deserved punishment. But this sets a BAD precedence towards aviation in general and pilots in particular. Say your jump pilot has an engine out and does a beautiful deadstick landing in a adjacent farm field. The pilot gets prosecuted for trespassing/endangering the public by a state/local entity. Now there is precedence to do it. As my Aviation Law professor would say in his southern drawl "This is bad lawww." Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

NO. I have spoken.

Bill! I told you! I fly for United EXPRESS.

After flying 30+ loads (12-13 hours per day) I sure as hell appreciated a Heineken handed up through the window while the engines spooled down. And honestly, I might have another one with dinner. Then I'd crash in bed to get up before anyone else to do it all over again on Sunday. If you judge what I did as bad well, then... that's the way you see it. Hope I didn't scare you at any time. I know I had mostly 10-12 hours between drinking and flying the next day. I figured that was sufficient. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Roger, thanks for that little dream. It's working out well. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

I used the Garmin GPS III Pilot. Bought it for 700 back in 97. I used it to spot the 300-way attempts at SDC in 1998. It worked great. It's a tool. It can't tell you when to put the green light on but if you understand drift it is a great moving map "bomb site". I'd recomend it or it's bigger cousin (think it's called 195) to anyone. It's a black and grey display. Took 4 AA batteries. Energizers would last me a day and a half. (40 plus loads). I bought rechargables and saved a bunch of money. I also have the power adapter and the otters now have power receptacles. One phrase: Love it. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Not to mention the damage you can do to your neck if you smash the ceiling. Getting floated of the floor in a manuever IS NOT ZERO Gs!. That would be NEGATIVE Gs and there is a limit that any plane should take of these. Hope yours isn't the one that went too far and no one knows. Good luck out there folks. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Thank you. I know there is no "collector tank" in the engine compartment for fuel. I just got tired of pointing out the innacuracies. Thanks also for the bit about the firewall cutoff. I had forgotten that it was electrically driven and yah if the power gets cut it's not going to work. Hence my comment that IF it didn't work I'd like to hear why. I was kinda hoping for a comment from the investigation itself but I'm sure you are correct as to why it didn't shut off. And yah, I kinda agree. There is no excuse for running into a building with a wing. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

It's not the media that's creating danger in the sport. It's that skydiving IS dangerous. Don't ever forget you can get killed doing this. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Um, gross weight on the Twin Otter is 12,500 pounds. It is on the -300 series. If you are in a -100 or -200 Otter it is 11,579. And most of the otters flying jumpers in the USA are of the 100/200 series. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Thank you. I'm feeling just a bit sensitive right now. Must be my time of the... But you would think that of all people SKYDIVERS would be able to spell the word "plane" because they jump out of one regularly or at least talk about it on a regular basis. ...kids today...

Oh yes... thank you. AND ANOTHER THING!!! ..... edit: wait, that one seems right. Now if he spelled it "whore" then I could raz him on that one too. Oh wait... I could raz him on that one to.

I'd kick you off the PLANE just because you can't spell PLANE!!! And it's "aisle"! And.... and... and... "WE'RE" not "WERE" when meaning a contraction of the words WE and ARE! And... and ....and... say it with me... CON-TI-NEN-TAL. Not Continetial. Oh for crying out loud. Do you proof read? Yes, I'm razzing you.

Michigan? King Air? First load?

"Let the bodies hit the floor! Let the bodies hit the floor!"

I guess we'll hear from you again in about 35 years, then? Don't count on it. I'm the thorn in the side that you just can't reach. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

You have 60 jumps and you are lecturing? BTFU. That was lecturing? I just found it funny that it was compared. That happens to be the DZ I was trained at and I know gary so chill out. Seems the only one lecturing is you. Your flip remark "Plane crash to hook turns. Gotta love DZ.com." is lecturing. It's also a nice one liner (like mine was) that served zero purpose other than boosting your post numbers. I think we need to go back to the unwritten rule talked about years ago: you can't make more posts than you have jumps. That would end a lot of useless junk here. edit: and God knows I've posted a lot of useless junk. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125

Very nice post. Unfortunately I think many DZ everywhere do not have a plan. And they sure as heck don't practice it. I actually wish that more DZs that have had jump plane accidents would right about how they reacted and what they learned from the experience. But sadly many of them just want the memory to go away and that knowledge is never passed on. Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125