FLYJACK

His "show on the road" comment is irrelevant,,, he was referring to having to wait to file a flight plan, then saying you can do it in the air... That comment had a specific context, Cooper knew they didn't have to file on the ground, and it is a given that a hijacker would have some level of anxiety whether he made that statement or not.. So, Cooper's statement is really irrelevant to this issue. We can reasonably expect a hijacker to be not wanting to waste time unnecessarily.. the comment is not a factor. The inference is that rejecting the bailout rigs and demanding the mains/reserves he requested was a waste of time.. that would appear so if you didn't understand there was difference between those rigs. So, this is actually more complex than people realize... which is why I lose patience... Nobody really understood the pilot bailout rig vs the main/reserve Cooper asked for until I started digging into it.. this thing has bugged me for years.. The real vector is the psychological delta of using a bailout rig vs main/reserve... which is why I asked about it and got ridiculed and dismissed... that is common in this case. People just want to shut down what they don't understand. In Tosaw's book he has Cooper complaining about the missing D Rings,, that would indicate he did not know they were pilot bailout rigs, however, that may be embellishment by Tosaw.. We have two options.. Cooper just didn't realize they were pilot bailout rigs and jumped anyway... that tells us he is not very experienced with parachutes. Or.. He realized they were bailout rigs understood the difference and didn't think that difference was worth getting the right ones.. this requires more understanding of the differences, something nobody has brought up, and he was on the ground for about 1 hr 40 min regardless,, So, the delay to get the main/reserves would not be significant. Further,, intentionally jumping with a pilot bailout rig instead of demanding the main/reserve he requested tells us something about Cooper's expectations and attitude for his own safety. On balance, I default toward Cooper NOT realizing they were pilot bailout rigs.. that means little parachute experience and not familiar with pilot bailout rigs missing D rings.. and he didn't realize he was taking a bigger risk with the payload, potential injury, lack of reserve and LZ.. I just think it would not be a big deal to say,, give me the main/reserve I demanded. But, it could be he knew.. if so, that changes things. I was trying to get feedback from jumpers to determine the psychological delta between jumping in those conditions with a pilot bailout VS main/reserve. Anybody who still thinks this is irrelevant is dead to me.. It is self evidence that a hijacker would want the best rig for a successful jump.. the main/reserve he had demanded.

I have been doing this a long time,, and have lost patience with low level thinking. Save that for FB or Reddit..

Yes, you missed the entire point... If as you claim Cooper didn't reject the bailout rig due to being impatient aka "get the show on the road" he must have known it was a bailout rig.. that is an assumption. and I asked you how would he know,,, you have no idea... The issue is whether Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and jumped anyway,,, his "get the show on the road" statement is completely irrelevant. Like I said ,, a waste of time.

because claiming Cooper said he wanted to "get the show on the road" is meaningless... and out of context. It is irrelevant to the issue. We know he jumped with the bailout rig,,, the question is why if he demanded a main/reserve,,,, did he know it was a bailout rig or not... THAT IS THE ISSUE Ryan didn't know the difference.. or that military manual main/reserves existed. Dudeman claimed any idiot would know,, this is completely false. Kamkisky claimed Cooper knew because he said "get the show on the road",, logical non-sequitur. This is just noise.. it isn't serious intellectual inquiry. So, it is clear that people do not really grasp this issue... and using terrible assumptions to shut it down.. As usual, this will come up 2 years from now and everyone will be amazed nobody brought it up before. I really do think this place is a waste of time and I don't really care if people don't get it... I do. and all I was asking was.. would any jumpers use a old pilot bailout rig in those conditions, they all said no problem making that jump, but none have indicated they would use a legit pilot bailout rig... no front reserve, no steer, hard open, hard landing and higher risk of injury... a legit 113 sq mi LZ.. So, if you guys don't think this is a legit issue then what are you doing here.

Not ALL speculation is created equal... this case is rife with garbage speculation, people just make up anything.. Speculation has its place but bad speculation is detrimental. To claim he said "get the show on the road" proves he knew he had bailout rigs and jumped with them instead of demanding the main/reserves is utter nonsense.. And it misses the issue entirely. If Cooper knew he had pilot bailout rigs then he did not target an LZ.. not even close. and it tells us he was willing to take a bigger risk with his life and payload. If you are randomly jumping into a wet and dark night once you land you need to get out of there.. Intentionally jumping with a bailout rig would tell us something about his character and psychology.. I doubt any rational jumper would do that jump in those conditions with only a legit old pilot bailout rig.. (not a modified freefall rig) Even Hayden claimed he would NEVER use it.... it was only to meet regulations. If you guys fail to understand that, it is your problem.

It is clear that some of you just don't grasp the issue here... But it brings up another point that never made sense.. Cossey was contacted about chutes and offered his at Issaquah. ALL FOUR. Cossey had nothing to do with securing Hayden's chutes. Emrich was to grab all four from Issaquah when he was informed that they had secured the two backs and to only send the fronts.. turns out the two backs from Hayden were pilot bailout rigs and could not attach fronts. So, Dudeman is wrong, not everyone understands the difference... Cossey was unaware of Hayden until a day or day's later.. Cossey initially believed HIS back chutes from Issaquah were sent to Cooper. Problem,, if Emrich was grabbing ALL FOUR he would not have grabbed backs and fronts that could not be attached... He would have grabbed freefall rigs and front reserves.. not pilot bailout rigs. The reason Cooper got incompatible fronts and backs is because they came from different sources. Now, later Cossey claimed in an interview the B4 Cooper left behind was a freefall rig... and returned to him. That is a tacit admission that he believed HIS sport rig was sent to Cooper.

Exactly, you have no idea.. you actually miss the point... and just make it up. He demanded mains/reserve... but received pilot bailout rigs and unusable front reserves.. I guess the guys tasked with obtaining the chutes didn't know the difference either.. Since he DID jump with a bailout rig.. there are only two options. Either,, He knew it was a pilot bailout rig and jumped anyway... Or,, He didn't realize it was a bailout rig... Pilot bailout rigs from that era,, did not steer, opened hard, landed hard and increased the risk of injury.. So, targeting of any LZ is out the window.. you land where the drift takes you, up to 113 sq miles.. higher risk with no reserve. Bailout rigs are emergency chutes not intended to be used. Is that what Cooper chose? Would any jumper choose that jump in those conditions with a legit pilot bailout rig?

So, you are claiming Cooper knew they were pilot bailout rigs not mains/reserves he asked for and used them anyway.. how do you know that?

So what,, that was just before takeoff.. you are GUESSING that is why he used the bailout rig.. The plane took off about 1 hour 40 minutes after receiving the wrong chutes... There is no reason he couldn't have rejected those rigs and demanded the ones he requested. Cooper was responding to Tina saying to wait to file a flight plan... it was not necessary and had nothing to do with the chutes. To claim this comment is why Cooper used the bailout rigs is absurd.

We are in agreement except for Dudeman... I don't believe they are equally valid,,, but that is what I am trying to sort out. It may tell us something about his military experience or his psychology..

It's a guess.

Sure, it isn't a mystery because you are just guessing.. It is more important than a bag.. When things don't make sense to me there is usually a good reason,, not some flakey guess and dismissal.

It can tell us something about him... it is nothing like Coke vs 7-Up.. simply taste. It is something that never made sense to me,,, why jump with an old pilot bailout rig when he asked for a main/reserve setup. Seems like a very serious and important decision. So, I am trying to establish the delta between those choices,, Cooper did have a choice. He chose the pilot bailout rig either on purpose or by not realizing it was a pilot bailout rig. Both of those alternatives have ramifications. If you don't see any value it in it that is up to you..

Partial answer...

There are two questions.. Would a jumper use a pilot bailout rig in those conditions.. (not a sport jump modified NB6) and Given the choice what is the psychological delta between using a bailout rig and main/reserve? Why did Cooper choose the bailout rig vs rejecting it?

A pilot bailout rig or a sport altered NB6... vs a main/reserve? I doubt it.. Mike is very experienced..

Yes, Ryan was wrong and made up "sporterized" to rationalize his assumption.. The military had "manual" parachute rigs from at least the 40's.. lots of them. Mark M. said sport jumpers would not use the term front and back and the evidence indicates Cooper was most certainly military.. The term "front and back" in the military means mains and front chest reserve NOT a pilot bailout rig.. that can be either static or manual parachutes. Cooper did not ask for or expect 30 year old pilot bailout rigs. Cooper had at least some parachute experience. Pilot bailout rigs (back reserves) of that era are not steerable, open harder, land harder and increase risk of injury.. Dudeman is wrong. Using a bailout rig means you can't target any spot. With a potential 6 mile drift that would be a 113 sq mi landing zone. Manual military mains had some steerability. Cooper had the time to reject the pilot bailout rig and get the main/reserve. There is a big difference between a WW2 bailout rig and a manual military parachute consisting of a main/reserve... in function, purpose and safety. Dudeman is wrong. So, why would Cooper use an old pilot bailout rig instead of the rig he asked for, higher risk of injury, no reserve, no steerability, no targeting an LZ.. A main/reserve is far superior in those conditions.. Would any jumper use a bailout rig in those conditions vs main/reserve? Not likely. Either he did not realize it was a pilot bailout rig, he just assumed it was a main without D rings Or he didn't really care about his own safety and took a massive risk jumping with an old bailout rig and not demanding the main/reserve he requested. and I would still like to have a jumper answer my question,,, would you make that jump in those conditions with an old pilot bailout rig..

Look, you are wrong and never answered my question... take a hike. I am done with your nonsense..

Well, I generally agree... except for one thing,, my question is the delta between jumping with a bailout rig and a main/reserve.. Would any jumpers use a bailout rig vs main/reserve... They are not the same... in performance or risk. and remember, the Pioneer at the museum is a civilian container.. the one Cooper used was military but I do not believe it was an NB6/8,, it was likely a WW2 military version.. similar to the tan Pioneer. I am looking through the Poynter riggers handbook and there are lots and lots of military rigs that were manual or rigged with automatic deployment systems.. too many to list. Back mains and front reserves.. They list military model numbers... I don't recognize. One example 1947... there are many...

Both of you have completely lost the plot... The military started doing ripcord freefalls in the late 50's.. they initially modified equipment but through the 60's manufacturers started making freefall equipment.. The special ops HALO stuff was not the only freefall stuff in the military.. Maybe officially in combat, but they were doing it. You can even modify static line to ripcord,, I don't know what specific gear they used late 60's early 70's.. but it is completely irrelevant.. a red herring.. The fact is there was main/front reserve military gear available.. Cooper received bailout rigs in "error".. At that time bailout rigs were constructed differently, they were more robust than mains,, non steerable, opened harder, landed harder and had a higher risk of injury.. I have read the regulations for bailout rigs and it is not constructed the same as a main.. IT IS NOT JUST D-RINGS.. Cooper DID NOT ask for or expect to receive 30 year old pilot bailout rigs... whatever model or brand is irrelevant. So, we have two options.. Cooper recognized them as old bailout rigs and jumped anyway.. NOT rejecting them and demanding mains/front reserves. or Cooper didn't recognize them as bailout rigs and jumped. So, I asked which would a jumper choose.. a 30 year old pilot bailout rig or a main/reserve.. What is the delta for that decision.. Dudeman17 refused to answer after at least three attempts to ask and chose to twist assumptions to fit his personal opinion. All the jumpers over the years have claimed they could do that jump, no problem... NOT ONE has said they would do it with a pilot bailout rig in those conditions..

We are done.. you are being insincere and spouting nonsense. You are misrepresenting what I have said,,,

No, you didn't know the difference.. neither did I until I researched it. Cooper didn't ask for old WW2 bailout rigs.. You still don't understand the difference. It isn't just D rings.. Gryder's rig is a main.. Hahneman got a military parachute consisting of a back main and front reserve AND jumped wearing both..

It isn't that I don't believe you per se,, you have an opinion that is based on assumptions.. some false. Bailout rigs were not steerable, Cooper's were not steerable,, Did you ever jump with a pilot bailout rig.. Pilot bailout rigs open harder and land harder increasing risk of injury. Whuffo's don't understand the difference between a bailout rig and a main.. Ryan didn't and inexperienced Cooper sleuths don't.. Cooper was most likely military and not a sport jumper. Cooper could have rejected the bailout rigs and demanded the mains/reserves he requested. and you still did not answer my question,,, you say the same thing over and over,, you wouldn't commit a hijacking etc..... that isn't the question. I am trying to determine the psychological delta.... jumping with a pilot bailout rig vs main/front reserve. Even Hayden said he would never use them, they were just to meet regulations..

It is something that has been overlooked... Either.. Cooper knew it was a bailout rig and went with it anyway.. Or.. He didn't realize it was a bailout rig.. These tell us something about him,, the question I still haven't got a solid answer for is.... would a jumper use a bailout rig vs main/reserve in those conditions. Jumpers have said it was an easy jump... would they do it in a bailout rig.. no front reserve, hard open, hard landing, no steer, higher chance of injury and a huge landing zone.. 113 sq miles..

What does that even mean... "existence of parachutes"... sounds silly. Cooper could have had military experience but not with a pilot bailout rig. He did have a choice... he didn't ask for a bailout rig and could have rejected them. He got the chutes about 6 PM and took off about 1.5 hours later... lots of time to get mains.. So, that urgency argument is false...