rehmwa

YEAAAAAAH!!!! I WANNA GOOOOO!!!!!!

Keith - THANKS. This is about as close to a good answer so far and I very much appreciate a real attempt. But none of these seems to apply, though. 1 - Married tax breaks - We don't get tax breaks, I end up behind, not ahead, when comparing separate unmarried tax forms. But I bet there are services that only married can use which could be quantified so that isn't too bad, I'd like to know those breaks, though and what we pay for them. It would be no more right to have those special breaks/programs for marriage as it would be for income level, race, sex, etc.... 2 - Education - Eliminate public schooling and let me pay my own way to private school my daughter. But that's a digression: You pay for kids of non-married people also. It doesn't tie to marriage, it ties to those people having kids. No dice here for a marriage discussion. (But I agree not fair) 3 - Health care discount for families - I can't speak to this. But private companies like insurance companies should be allowed to defined cost vs risk based on real actuarial stats, if that provides a discount to a certain group at least it's based on statistical data and not subjective/discriminatory feelings..... So they should be allowed do just that. Married people could also state they are paying for your insurance since you are a higher risk they pay more...... No Dice. Is higher insurance rates mandated by federal government for single people? Doubt it. It's off issue also. 4 - I don't know if marriage is for the greater good of society, it's just a theory by people with social study degrees or religious bias or whatever. Subjective 'science' sucks and leads us to bad decisions. I like Karen's thoughts. Create a general term for governmental/contractual partnership and apply that across the board. Leave "marriage" as a sacrament or whatever. Let the social/subjective issues sort themselves out as those are people issues, not government issues. We'll find out real quick if the increase in social security payouts, foreign spouse (green card immigration due to gay contractual marriage), etc ends up costing the average guy enough to change those rules. But then maybe they would be change in a more even handed manner since they would affect all, not just specific groups. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Mary is the best. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Sounds good provided the benefits removed are only those supported by the governement. As far as insurance as an example, private industries should be allowed to discriminate however their business/profit models directs them. However, then we can eliminate the term as far as government is concerned - GOOD Now leave it to private and religious ceremonies and call it whatever you want. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

"Cutaway" had the main female role named Star. She could do RW and Head Down and was a tandem master, I think did some CrW and even won a national competition in a really messed up variation of speed star. But her spotting abilities really, really sucked from what I could see. Could be worse, at least this is a "jack of all trades" type of skydiver..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Thanks but, until you can tell me the net impact instead of just a couple unquantified (and subjective/theoretical mental masturbation) aspects, I'll decide how I evaluate this particular issue. tax payers have to pay for medical care - (general statement, not related to your incest slant) only if we make the horrible move to social health care. In the meantime, let individuals purchase health insurance and live with their personal decisions.... also, "no harm, no foul" is not a given. At best, I'd say innocent unless proven guilty in regards to that statement. You are stating your opinions as fact here instead as opinion. I just want to know IF (or how much) legal gay marriage will cost me (in terms of dollars, not subjective "social costs" - I think (opinion) that's true junk science). I doubt anyone has quantified that - since both sides of most all social issues are violently opposed to any hard data. Shouldn't that be part of picking a position? Which I haven't yet. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Wonderful (Eric Clapton) others ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Probably not, you're asking to have the discussion on the 'moral' aspect of it. Other than very vague discussions, it takes quite a bit of bravery to pick a side and work it. So people stick with the vagueness and platitudes. I've seen analogies and attempts to make the discussion here, but I don't believe anyone is really equipped to predict the impact directly. Me? I'd rather discuss the monetary aspects of the situation and if those will directly impact me or my family as someone in a traditional marriage. If they don't, I don't think I should weigh in until those actions show they do affect me/mine (I can't yet see into the future to predict if this is good, bad or a wash and nobody else can either. The only way is to test it.) I do like the idea of removing special contractual/financial consideration for all and treat individuals as just individuals. This extends beyond sexual orientation to age, race, religion, unions, income, etc. But just try and take away the McDonald's senior discount, affirmative action, scholarships to whichever special group, progressive/regressive taxes...... Social engineering is normally well meaning efforts that always backfire with the opposite results than intended. Have fun - this thread may just be pretty silent until the more extreme types go to their lunch hour. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Nice point about politics. I have a good friend at our DZ. Ex-military, on staff and likely subject to hearing all the crap from staff and the 'regulars'. He just walks away from the group as soon as people start to spill their gripes or back-stabbing or complaining about others. He doesn't say anything or correct the person, he just doesn't want to be there for it. I admire this person for many reasons, but this is one them that stands out. I'm trying to emulate that, it's not easy as gossip and complaining is a normal trait that many get sucked into. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Heck, while we're at it. What is the impact on taxes to extend spousal soc security benefits? Is it being driven to be retroactive? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Judy - You didn't happen to get a copy of the new SOPs. That would be worth sharing. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I'm assuming that you are now getting a ton of PMs from the single male contingient? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Or - resourceful and motivated. Just because you've heard the question about a million times doesn't mean jack. The point is the customer has asked it for the first time. It's a better way to establish credibility and trust to ALWAYS put yourself in the customer's shoes rather than act all superior and all-knowing. Chris - When are Anna and JJ due? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Edit: Seriously, you want to move to Canada because you don't like this system. That's something certain actors threatened to do. You guys have the guts to do it. I admire that (in a way). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Yes, I think we can. I think that we should not use marriage as a legal term anymore. I think that term should be strictly reserved for the religious. Civil union (or civil marriage) would be the legal aspect that affords the rights and benefits that are currently associated with married couples rights. For an example, this would mean that a heterosexual christian couple would get married at their church and get a civil union from the courts. However, people like my boyfriend and I would omit the church part and only go to the courts to get our piece of paper and then go skydiving to celebrate. This I agree with word for word. Including the part about skydiving as a good way to celebrate. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

THANKS Karen hmm - "Thousands of laws" to treat some people differently than others. It really never stops does it? Do you think anyone can differentiate "civil marriage" from traditional marriage? "Civil marriage" sounds administrative enough.... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

John - Why don't you start a new thread with a different title and exact same first post and see if you can spark the conversation you were hoping for? This is one is going nowhere - it's been filibustered. But it was funny watching the anal retentive discussion for awhile. How about this for a title - "Louis Farrakhan article" Or "Kittens, Good or Evil" Or "Naked Lunch" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

I don't think the complainers actually clicked on the link. Else they would have seen that Farrakhan's title of the article was "What The Muslims Want" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Dude - has she taken up an interest in lacrosse or golf? has she been spending a lot of girls' nights out? be careful {I'm out on a limb here, I don't know AM's sense of humor} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

and "Blazing Saddles" - I didn't see a single saddle on fire, being set on fire, or being extinguished from a fire. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Apparently, no one wants to talk about the nutjobs. It's more fun to have meaningless semantic arguments about how well John chooses his words for those too lazy to read the content. I was Frankly really pissed off at the book the DaVinci code. DaVinci wasn't even in the book except as a historical reference. And the movie "Naked Lunch" - I can think of two things misleading about that title. And the movie "The Neverending Story" Is the most blatant example of false advertising of all time. Edit: Andyman - And I don't think . . . {{nevermind - the referenced post was deleted already}} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

nevermind ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Oh, great, now thread titles have to go through a committee process. John was pretty clear in the first sentence of his post and provided a link to the site. Anyone interested has (and took) the opportunity to note that extremist groups are nuts. Isn't that the whole point of the thread? Edit: Nice rule Kennedy. It is interesting that instead of talking about the NOI and these wacky positions, everyone is quickly jumping all over John and defending a set of people who are not the NOI. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

What exactly are these tax breaks, benefits and other benefits? (I'm pretty sure I paid more tax from being married so that's a crappy tax break) Does anyone here know? BTW Karen - I like your post, this is what I'd like to see really discussed. Just what are the gay couples getting out of this (and not just the fuzzy insubstantial stuff which can be gotten via a non-governmental service)..... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants