jraf

That would be sooooooo hard to do as Titusville does not have an S&TA jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Bill, while you have described many good points I say this. A good USPA accredited DZ will have an S&TA who will make appropriate points to people who he thinks are not being safe. I would never complain about an S&TA discussing things with me. Titusville does not have an S&TA. They have manifest hands who have heard something from someone and make uneducated arbitrary decisions like the: “I want to see you under a fully open canopy at 3,000 feet” that I have heard last Sunday. I really think you misunderstood my point. Do you think that skydivers exercising their right as USPA members are wrong? What is the USPA there for? As you know all in life is about a delicate balance. The skydivers have their rights. The DZs have their rights. Currently I see this as being off kilter. Or do you think that a regional director of the USPA not being able to enforce the S&TA rule is the way it should be. If so, I respectfully disagree. Last but not least, you are a lucky guy with the free jumps. You may say it’s my attitude, but guess what – I received none. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

It has nothing to do with a conspiracy. It is a matter of continuous bad service. It is a matter of not caring for customers. Although sparked by something that happened to me recently at the Titusville DZ, believe me it was just the cherry on the pie. And as you noticed there are more people who have received bad service. Do you like crappy service at a DZ? jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

As you well know individual USPA privileges have been revoked temporarily or permanently. If I act against what I signed for in the USPA membership application, then of course the USPA has every right to revoke my membership. Having said that: acting like an ass is not part of that application. What more I was polite at Titusville, packed my canopy and went home. I_was_polite. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

As you hopefully have notice the issue is much deeper than someone being rude to me. I am actually trying to mobilize my fellow fun jumpers to start standing up for our rights. Do you find that wrong? Please tell me, do you not see the many problems that our sport is going through because we are just willing to accept what people under normal circumstances would never hear of? We let too many things slide because we are worried that if we stir the DZO may blackball us. We let to many things slide because they are done by a fellow jumper who works as a tandem instructor or manifest employee. I as this: when was the last time you got a free ticket to altitude from your DZO because the weather was nice? jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

The USPA is an organization that is based on a pretty sound theoretical foundation. Sadly enough skydivers do not exercise their right to pressure the USPA to do things for them. Richard Schachner called me and said that basically he can’t do anything about the Titusville DZ. Well I beg to differ. The Titusville DZ is a USPA group member. The USPA has every power to run an inquiry into the incident and make a recommendation to the executive board. If the Titusville DZ does not want to cooperate with an inquiry or if they are found wrong then the USPA executive committee can withdraw their accreditation. It is as simple as that. Now that was the theory. In practice skydivers have allowed the USPA to become a sub-division of the PIA. We have allowed that to happen by our inertia. We have to realize that we are paying, card carrying members of the USPA. We have rights and we should demand our rights. The Titusville DZ brakes two fundamental points of the Skydiving Service Code of Conduct: 1. The pledge to operate safely as they have refused our elected USPA regional director Richard Schachner to assign or help them assign an S&TA. Hence they operate without an S&TA i.e: there is no competent assigned safety representative. 2. The pledge of Honesty, Integrity and Fairness by accusing people of wrongdoing based on hearsay and other numerous unfair practices. That to me sounds looks like grounds to a USPA inquiry. If DZs knew that we are willing to exercise our rights as USAP members then the industry would be better off and skydivers would be able to enjoy their pastime a little more. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Fun jumpers it appears are at the bottom of the Titusville DZ priority lists. Tandems are the money makers and so they take first place. Videographers go with tandems. AFF Students bring more money too. Fun jumpers are just the $4 a jump plane fillers and a pain in the neck. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

You ROCK...and in this particular case you are right! I pulled way below CRW altitude

I respectfully disagree. If you are a fun jumper DZ service levels affect you. One of these days you will get a DZ employee who will rub your nose in doodoo and you might not like it. Here I partially agree. I demand the good service based on my experience, but believe me I saw other people mistreated too. Either we live in different worlds (countries definitely) or you have lived a very shielded life up to now. I see nothing wrong in demanding courteous and respectful service, do you? The fact aside that I don’t frequent McDonalds, yes! When I get bad service at a place of service I demand satisfaction. When it is a corporation I will go all the way up the food chain to get the situation corrected. I expect quality for my money, don’t you? Do you find it wrong to strive for better service? Do you think DZ staff should treat us poorly when they are having a bad day? Do you think skydiver service levels should be based on jump numbers, friendships and clique affiliations? I would rather we all be treated with professional courtesy and respect jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Porpoishead has the gist in his post. I would definitely recommend 24 hours if you intend on going any deeper than 30 feet. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

This is a thread about the quality of our life. I am a fun jumper. I am not a parachute industry professional, I don’t have ambitions of becoming a tandem master. I want to jump for fun. Bad service and bad attitudes of service providers spoil my fun. There were these here that have seen me pull low, more that have heard of me pull low and are trying to convince me that I pilled low. To those I say: What is your point? I have mentioned several time that I have the personal integrity to admit when I do something wrong. I have not pulled low at Titusville, I have pulled lower than others, but well above my BSR assigned container opening altitude. That’s it. Then there are those who say I should shut up and look stupid, how dare I contest something the manifest person said to me? Whoooah now! I come out to the DZ to have fun. I pay good money. A admit that there is a certain amount of informality allowed in the skydiving community and I have no problem with that. I however respectfully demand that the road go both ways. Bill von Novak makes a good point, but it does not adhere to all situations. There are DZs where the friendly atmosphere is there and you feel part of a community (some much larger DZs than Titusville have that feeling). When DZ is run without that then it is just a commercial operation and since there is a monetary transaction, I demand service for my money - courteous, professional service. There are those who cry about the low wages of the manifest personnel. I do not ask them what they earn and don’t look into their wallets. It is their choice to work there. And to all you concerned with the slave wages of manifest – next time you are at your DZ talk to the DZO about it. Tell him you think its unfair that he exploit his employees who sometimes are fellow skydivers. Don’t look at me, I just jump for fun. There are those very experienced skydivers who will cry wolf about my pulling low (whatever that means) but themselves come in for landing like bats from hell. They land with the wind after low altitude front riser hook turns. I can do that too. Not a big deal. I don’t criticize them, though their landing habits are far more dangerous than opening your container at BSR prescribed level. In my skydiving career I have never seen an accident caused by a low pull but I have personally seen people get badly hurt and die after making the slightest mistake on a high performance landing. We are talking about very, very experienced skydivers with thousands of jumps. There are those who call me a sexist and question my integrity. To you dear friends I have nothing to say. I have contempt for such remarks. The bottom line is that I am a fun jumper. The majority of us are fun jumpers. We don’t own DZs, we have other jobs and come out to jump on the weekend. We pay good, hard earned money for jumps. We support the DZOs with our money, we support the DZ staff with our money. We want to have fun and it is in that case all about us. It is our time to relax and unwind after work. It is time to have fun with friends. The bottom line is our quality of life. We should require that the USPA hold affiliated DZ accountable for the service levels that they pledge to in the Skydiving Service Code of Conduct. I know of several jumpers who after a few years of jumping got burnt out by the lack of respect they were getting. A few years ago I myself was really disgruntled with the sky god attitudes, but I just chose to ignore them. We should demand at least certain respect from DZOs and DZ staff. We should feel that we are relaxing and having fun. We should feel happy to spend our money at the DZ. We should not be abused just because we are skydivers. Respect us or we will talk to the USPA, the Better Business Bureau, and other fun jumpers and your business will go slow. If you can’t accept that, you have no business running a business. Because to most DZOs a drop zone is where they make money. Let us vote with our money and believe me service will get better! jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Debate with them and then talk about them like this behind their backs. You may want to have a talk with Mr. Jraf, Skymama. After his sexist rant, I'm not sure he will be too welcome at any Fla. DZ with ladies at manifest. Kevin, I don't know what your issue is if you don't hold stake in the Titusville dropzone. What do you want to prove? What is your point? Do you want to convince everybody that they are worth shit and should bow to the DZO/Manifest God? Well good luck to you in your future endeavors. Do you want to prove that I pulled low? Perhaps you don't have the personal integrity to admitt to things like that, but I do. And as I have done nothing wrong...go put your slipers on and drink hot chocolate in the recliner... Please don't call me sexist. Perhaps you are sexist, but I am very far from. On that point, your remark seems juvenile to me. I don't think I said anything behind anyones back. As a matter of fact if you read what I wrote carefully you would notice that the letter of complaint I sent to the USPA was coppied to Titusville I am trying to perhaps move people to demand some of their rights. This is a sport and pastime. We spend our hard earned mney and should get some kind of respect from the people who's livelyhoods we support. What are you trying to prove here? Pray respond. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

OK, these are the facts: She is an incompetent, large woman. How else do you want me to describe her? Do you want me to call her by name? Or is calling someone a woman politically incorrect? Or is it my fault that she is large, or perhaps I should pretend that she is thin? She is by all means incompetent. How very perceptive of you. Let me reinforce that statement. I was bullied at Titusville by an incompetent employee (look for description above) I was spending MY money. I suppose you are a better man than me, but I dislike when people bully ME Now if this happened to someone else I really would not be competent to comment as I am not an FAA certified altitude guestimator. The gist of the discussion is the level of service that we are expecting for our hard earned money. Then again if nobody cares then I gues skydivers will be treated like dirt at drop zonesand life will go on. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

In other words my learned friend according to you I am either a liar or both my instruments are wrong. Congratulations on your keen senses. You say Yes, that is true I pull lower than 4,000 feet AGL And you base that statement on the bult in altimeter in you retina or the large measuring stick that you had in your pocket. Or perhaps some opened at 5,000 feet and others at 4,000 feet. Or maybe the opened between 3,000 and 2,000. Unless you can give me an precise figure based on altimeter readings your guestimates have no value. As you mentioned, you are a newby so stick to what you know to do and dont tell me where I was in the saddle. I was in the saddle between 2,500 and 2,300 feet AGL based on my Alti 2. If you think you know better then call Alti and tell them their equipment is worthless. Yeah I guess the high pull rule that the nice manifest lady told me about was just an issue of my imagination. And this guy pulled LOWER than everyone else. On the jump you mentioned brakeoff was at 5,500 feet. A person standing on the ground or especially moving in the air should not even attempt to guestimate other peoples altitudes. You have not seen my altimeter on opening so you really no nothing of it. That is the bottom line. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

You probably are right. I wish he told me his oppinion of the entire thing. Unfortunately the DZ at Titusville appears to be run by manifest staff and they appear to have final say on business. I guess this means that when they get hormonal business just cant go well jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

This isn't a DZ issue, it's an assault issue. If the snack bar boss didn't address the employee, what did the cops do to the shooter? Believe it or not I am such a troublesome customer that I let it slide. I considered it to be an issue between kids, since the shooter was a son of one of the riggers. I hope you will now admitt that it takes a lot to really piss me off. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Thats a shade higher than most DZ's run jumprun. Is the idea to give you an extra 1000ft or so on top, and then everyone dumps a little higher? If it is, that's an awesome idea. No harm in opening a little higher AGL. That is not what they advertise themselves as. And once again when called they say that BSR rules are what you are supposed to anhere to. I jumped there for the extra air time and not for a plane ride. If you want a plane ride I suggest one of the plushy heavies at Pittsburgh International - they have seat and air conditioning. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

The regular jump run is 15,000 feet. So if I am the special case that, according to the two hundred jump wonder manifest lady, needs to be under fully deployed canopy at 3,000 feet then they can take their plane and fly to Cuba with it. Bon voyage to them. There appear to be plenty of other DZs in Florida within the same or reasonable driving from my pad: Air Adventures of Clewiston, 50 miles west of West Palm Beach Florida Skydiving Center, 50 miles southwest of Orlando Freefall Adventures, Florida, 70 miles southeast of Orlando The Jumping Place @ Jax, 27 miles north of Jacksonville International Airport School of Human Flight, 15 miles west of Tallahassee Skydive City, 22 miles northeast of Tampa Skydive DeLand, Inc., 45 miles north of Orlando Skydive Key West, 12 miles north of Key West Skydive Miami, 20 miles southwest of Miami Skydive Palatka, Inc., 45 miles south of Jacksonville Skydive Sebastian, 70 miles southeast of Orlando Skydive SW Florida, 25 miles north of Fort Myers Skydive Umatilla, 32 miles northwest of Orlando jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Well perhaps I have put a bit of sarcasm in my post so please forgive. Now having made it through 35 years of skydiving has not made you extra stupid, by no means. As a matter of fact I am sure you can share a lot of advice and knowledge. I also am sure that you have learned to distinguish between legitimate safety issues and stupid little power plays. Given the fact that when I called the Titusville DZ today I was informed that they adhere to the USPA BSR minimum pull altitudes I don't understand what yesterdays issue was about, aside just being jerks. I am also sure that you well know that guestimating someones elses altitude from ground or air is at best a futile task. Depending on time of day, light, cloudcover and many other factors the same person may see to be at different levelsto the uninstrumented eye of even the most experienced jumper. Sumarizing - I was bullied at Titusville yesterday. Not the ifrst time, but definitely the last. The plane just is not worth the hassle. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

If a regular Jumper that the manifest person knew and respected came up and told her you pulled low, I can see why she would take his word over someone she didnt know at all. If this was your first time there, How is she supposed to know if you are an honest person?? Someone you know and trust says one thing, A complete stranger says something different, who would be more likely to believe?? This addresses another industry problem. I have jumped there for a year now. I have established myself as a skydiver. It is very often at this point that you become a threat to the local clique. People take it personally when you stand your own ground. Especially in skydiving where a lot of people are dealing with a lot of issues. With great and all due respect to my professional skydiver friends I have to note that a lot of professional skydivers are are easily intimidated by individuals to whom skydiving is just one of the activities and not the fabric of their life. Perhaps that was the case. I think that is worth a good analysis. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Cross my heart I was more than civil. I just can't accept that my integrity was treated so lightly. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Sadly is not that type of place. I have never received anything for free at Titusville and never was given any favors. I was with other jumpers dumped off loads to make place for tandems many times though i.e: the place is rather like any poorly run service organization. No friendships with the owners, trust me. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

Mr. Jraf, Since your profile contains a bunch of silly horseshit (1 jump, License # F-111 from NASA, 5.95 wing loading, etc.) it's difficult to access your credibility in saying that the people at the DZ are unqualified and don't know what they're talking about. With respect to the USPA BSRs, I believe that the opening altitudes have a license provision attached. Do you possess a USPA license ? If so, what class is it ? What were the deployment altitudes shown on your L&B Pro Track for your jumps that day at Skydive Space Center ? I hope you don't mind these intrusive questions. I'm trying to ask politely, as I realize that you are a sensitive individual. Kevin Keenan Mr. Keenan, You write as if you had a financial stake in the Titusville dropzone, which I hope you do, but then identify yourself as the co-DZO. 1. My profile contains my name, that is all that is needed. 2. My USPA license entitles me to open my container below the 3,000 foot AGL level that I chose for myself. Even if I were an A license holder that still would be according to BSRs. But you as a skydiver with 35 years experience obviously knew it without my mentioning so. 3. The lady who was running manifest was not qualified to judge my opening altitude for several reasons: a. she did not see it (self addmitted) b. she is not an expereienced jumper (as you well know) c. she is not an S&TA (as you know) 4. The very experienced skydivers were not qualifies either as either they opened their containers 1,000 feet above me (4,000 AGL as you well know) or perhaps were on the ground. With all due respect but I will trust my instruments over their experience 5. My L&B Pro Dytter (yes that is the instrument that we are talking about) was set to sound last alarm at 2,500 AGL. I have not heard the dytter's third alarm, and it will go off even if your canopy is sniveling. based on my Alti 2 I open my container slightly above the 3,000 foot mark. 6. As in 35 years of skydiving you might have forgotten it's shape, let me remind you what an Alti 2 looks like - it has a very large bright yellow triangle that goes from 3,000 to 2,500 feet and then it is a red triangle below that Considering that I saw the dial approaching 3,000 when I opened my container and my L&B Pro Dytter 2,500 foot alarm did not go off I will trust my instruments that I opened my container at 3,000 feet give or take 100 feet. You may have forgotten this as you have been in this sport for so long, but altitude awareness is the rule. The rule is also not to look at anybody elses deployment altitude no matter how very experienced skydivers they are but to trust your instruments and your judgement thereof.

So WTF is this all about? It is about Service Levels within the skydiving industry. I care about how I am being treated when I leave my hard eaned money somewhere. I am not one of those kids who will carry a lunchbox for someone just because they have a couple of hundred or even thousand jumps more. When you go to a restaurant and the service is not to your liking, don't you complain? How about a restaurant where you ordered a steak, while the waiter brings you pasta? What if when you complain, the waiter tells you that a very experienced chef told him that your pasta is in fact a steak. And you can turn blue if you don't like it. This post is all about unsatisfactory service and lack of professional integrity of Titusville employees. It is skydivers themselves who allow for the service levels to be low. I voted with my money, and took my business elswhere. Apparently the owners don't care, cause the only person who reacted was Richard Schachner of the USPA. And we as USPA members have the power to exert pressure on such DZs. jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275

I got my money back. I made it quite lcear that I am not in the business of selling tickets, the DZ is. I made it quite clear that once the ticket is sold it is a contractual agreement by the DZto take the jumper to altitude and remains such contractual agreement till refunded. It is a manifestors job to manifest. Titusville, per their own statement does not have an S&TA. The manifestor there is not competent to be an S&TA and is not a USPA accreditted S&TA. She is however full of self importance and knowledge of skydiving trivia. She is also supported by very experienced skydivers jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275