jaybird18c

Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church assisted many of the Nazi war criminals involved in the Holocaust to escape (mostly to South America) after WWII, and that the Pope (Puis XII) was almst certainly aware of it. Nice Christians. The Roman Catholic Church has been and is wrong on many counts. The Pope and the Papacy But that's got nothing really to do with the right or wrong with regard to abortion.

"180" This is a documentary put together by Ray Comfort and his ministry Way of the Master. It describes in graphic detail the atrocities of the WWII Holocaust and ties that in with what is happening in the US with regard to abortion. I watched it last night. I thought it was very effective. It did have a flaw, however. It was done from the perspective of the public and not the Physician. It does not take into account the limited scenarios where a procedure might be necessary and unavoidable to save the life of the mother. Other than that, I think he got his point across.

Wow. You are the radical liberal aren't you.

AND in way too many cases... it has been shown that members of the police and the prosecution... have done just that LIED so they could make thier case closure stats look good. In the case of the man that Georgia and its citizens just murdered, there was no evidence, most of the eyewitneses recanted and stated for the record that the POLICE had coerced their statements at the time of the original trial. PLUS.. the real murderer of the police officer has gotten away with it... and as one of the "eye witnesses" is laughing at the State of Georgia and all the cops in the case that murdered an innocent man. Now how do you know all this? Really? Did you study the trial or something? Do you have the same outrage over the white supremacist who dragged a guy to his death who just got put to death in Texas? Maybe you could stage a protest in defense of his rights. How about the rights of that poor guy who got dragged to death?

WRONG.. on quite a few points ... but you go on believing anything you want.... it's far easier that way for you What I mean is that there seems to be such disdain for religion and the idea of moral absolutes from atheists yet, when there is an appeal to justice or injustice, God's standard is kept on standby.

So you’re saying that our system is set up to put “innocent adult citizens” do death?”

Your original question: With regard to abortion: My wife is an OB/GYN Physician. She has, at times, had to take measures which would kill the baby in order to save the life of the mother. Those circumstances are few and extreme. She has never nor would ever do anything to harm a baby in the womb unless there was a situation where either one or both were going to die otherwise. That's not to say she has or ever would perform an abortion in the sense that we're talking about. I'm talking about inducing labor with an underdeveloped fetus or performing a c-section under the same circumstances when the baby will not survive in order to save the mother. Bottom line, sometimes it is necessary so I support it under very limited circumstances but certainly not for any other reason besides the risk of death to the mother. Is that killing, “just?” No, not really. The baby did no wrong nor could it. However, sometimes we have no choice but between two bad ones in that scenario. What makes this very different from any other “choice of convenience” is that there are many alternatives. With regard to your “state sponsored murder” comment: I am assuming from your previous comment that you agree with including “justice” in the definition (“unjust killing”). If that’s the case, then the definition does not describe what took place with putting a convicted murderer to death. The crime committed was so cruel and abhorred that the only way justice could be realized is by a most extreme method and outcome (even though “exact justice” would be much worse (e.g. eye for an eye)…we don’t do this because we are humane with a sense of mercy). We live in an imperfect world and our systems of government are also imperfect. We have to do the best with what we have (I think it’s the best in the world, by the way, despite its flaws). You could make the argument that there are alternatives (e.g. life imprisonment). I agree and would be alright with that. However, I’m also okay with the death penalty and see it as justified.

That's beside the point....I think. I thought we were discussing the issue with regard to right & wrong, not the statistical result of it. Define murder.

You keep changing words...is it killing, murder, or just dying?

Our legal system was also created with a sense of justice.

Just answering with a similar leading question that you began with. Your question was kind of like the one I used to hear as a kid when your "friends" would ask you, "Does your mother know you're gay?"

So you're in support of murdering innocent children as long as it's the mother who chooses to do it? Added: And in support of sparing the lives of convicted murderers. --->>>180

Do you support abortion and, if so, to what degree?

That is a great point. Bleeding heart liberalism tends to break down when the rubber meets the road or "when it becomes personal."

It seems very odd to me that an angry, hostile, militant, anti-religious, atheist would feel the need to invoke scripture in an attempt to make their point (used incorrectly/mistranslated...but still...)

Neither of the people listed intend to deceive. I don't remember the person Quade is bitching about.... Either Beck or Rush or someone like that.... But they NEVER claimed to have been a SEAL. The person said they were given it by one and either asked to wear it, or wore it in support of them. No one in their right mind would think Beck or Rush or whoever it was was actually a SEAL and he didn't claim to be one. Doug Forth also never claimed to be a person with a combat jump. He was also given it. I don't see a real issue with either case, but Quade posted the story to bash Rush or Beck, but he is friends with Doug who is doing the SAME THING. Then I guess I'd have to temper my previous statement. Motive is everything. Still, I would think it fairly ignorant on behalf of the person wearing something they didn't earn even if they weren't claiming to rate it. They obviously don't understand how many view their action. In their attempt to show support, they are showing disrespect in many cases.

Doub Forth has a set of mustard jump wings... Do you also consider him to be a disrespectful, dishonest, P.O.S??? I think anyone, regardless of who they are or where they've been, who displays something they're not qualified for with the intent to deceive, they are being dishonest. I used to wear an Army SF tab on my shoulder. I take issue with anyone who claims that who hasn't earned it.

I'd think him a disrespectful, dishonest, P.O.S.

FAIR TAX

If the Bible is just a good guideline for morality and Jesus was just a good teacher, then the pluralistic viewpoint that all roads lead to heaven (or fulfillment) is plausible. However, Jesus didn’t allow for that (John 14:6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.). If our belief is not important and it’s just about how we live, we are relying on our own self-righteousness which is unbiblical (Ephesians 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.). Jesus said, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel (Mark 1:15). I can understand the author’s tendency to drift towards this idea, however, as a Catholic convert. Catholicism does not teach (as Paul instructed) salvation by grace (alone) through faith (alone) and their authoritative teaching does not come from scripture (alone). Catholicism is works-oriented (e.g. Sacerdotalism, among others) and is, in that way, at its core, just like every other religion on the planet. Historical/biblical Christianity is the only religion which stands apart. It is really all about how we live and not what we believe? How we live is extremely important but is useless in an attempt to make us right with God. How we live is a reflection of what we believe. Christians try and live rightly not in order to be saved but because we are saved (if one has repented and placed his/her trust in Jesus; appropriating the substitutionary sacrifice/work on the cross that He performed on our behalf).

I can't believe some of the rationale put forth by some in this thread for his behavior. Wow! I've got to say that I think his priorities are WAY out of whack. You also can't tell me that doing tandems, even if he's making money (I'm a tandem instructor, by the way), isn't self-serving. His most important priority/responsibility is YOU. I don't care what his job is or how much money he makes. His actions with regard to you and your sister are extremely self-centered/selfish and uncaring. I hope things change for you.

Jesus did not resist Pilate's authority. He merely corrected him as to its source.

So what? Christian apologists for immoral acts abound. There were Christians running the Inquisition. There were Christians helping Nazis escape to S. America following WWII. I don't see Christians supporting the death penalty as any better. The question isn't what people (right or wrong) have done with scripture. The question is, what does the Bible say concerning a subject? What is the principal (if any) that can be derived? Does it apply to us or not? That is done through a systematic approach. Pull from "all" of scripture concerning something to derive meaning (e.g. what the Bible says concerning capital punishment)....along with historical/grammatical interpretation.

The Bible and Capital Punishment By Gregory Koukl

God' existence has nothing to do with you. God also does not "need" you for anything. That's one of His attributes (Solitude). He did not have to condescend Himself to pay the penalty for those in active rebellion against Him. But He did anyway out of His grace. He is withholding judgment against you currently out of his mercy. God will be glorified either by you repenting, placing your faith in Him, and spending eternity with Him ... or God will be glorified in the judgment and punishment for your sin after you die, and you spending an eternity in hell. Either way, God is holy and "just." But don't think for one second that you're doing God some kind of favor by saying you're sorry and turning to Him. It is commanded (not requested) in Scripture for you to repent and believe.