jaybird18c

One's disbelief in something has no effect on its reality. Either it is real or it is not regardless of what one believes. You may not believe what the Bible says, however, either you or God is lying in this regard and the Bible says that God cannot lie. It would be against his very nature. So where does that leave us?

Why is God considered "vicious" in exacting due punishment for the crimes against His nature that we have committed? Here, I bolded the part that explains why I called it vicious.

Ever heard of the Protestant Reformation? The Catholic Church wasn't always apostate. However, there came a time when the Roman Catholics, needed to be called back to Biblical truth. That's not to say there aren't believers in the Catholic Church. There most certainly are. God can and does save some from any falsehood. However, anyone (e.g. the Pope & Papacy) who believes in the works righteousness of Roman Catholicism does not represent the catholic body of believers who submit to sola fide & sola scriptura.

One can scrutinize, examine, analyze without being insulting and ridiculing those you don’t agree with. I do not expect you to think like I do or believe what I’m saying in this regard. It’s ok to disagree. I’m putting out a point of view. You should do the same. I understand where you’re coming from as an atheist. I now disagree with it but again that’s ok. Nothing wrong with an opinion. But being rude and demeaning is not productive.

God sees the heart...not just your actions. The world is an imperfect place now and, I would argue, is getting worse and worse. The effects of sin reach all whether they are believers, unbelievers, or even those who aren’t old enough to know either way. But God doesn’t leave us there. That’s the “good news.” Now, it is not made clear exactly what happens to the infants/children who die before knowledge and accountability. However, there is good reason to believe that somehow, by God’s grace, they are received. Not all (e.g. Pharaoh’s son), however, I’d say most. It seems to indicate that the children of believers (e.g. those covenantal children) are somehow saved by grace. But, as for the justification, it all goes back to the sin of one man (the first Adam)…which was imputed to the rest of humanity….which was later accounted for by a perfect sacrifice (the second Adam; Jesus)….satisfying God’s justice on our behalf…so that “in Him” we can now be seen as righteous in the eyes of God…and God can be both “just” and also the justifier of wicked men.

The wise and mature person seeks to understand first and not ridicule. You'd think that would be some sort of requirement for a moderator, you know, one who's supposed to "moderate."

Why is God considered "vicious" in exacting due punishment for the crimes against His nature that we have committed? I don't understand that. It would be like me committing murder and thinking the Judge "vicious" for giving me life in prison or the death penalty. The punishment is due the criminal or else justice does not prevail. The "good" life you lead cannot make up for the crimes already charged against you. The "good" life you lead is based on our individual or societal norms and not on the one by which we will eventually be judged. I think a lot of the misunderstanding stems from our misunderstanding of God's justice.

I agree with this. There are lots of people who claim to believe yet live their lives as though God never gave them laws to obey. I've heard Sunday described as the greatest day of idolatry of the week. Matthew 7 describes this brand of hypocritical and insincere Christianity and the ineffective/non-saving nature of it very well. I at least respect the persons position which includes honest disbelief as opposed to someone living a lie. Even if that person is wrong and there are tragic consequences in the end, at least it's sincere....very wrong.....but sincerely wrong.

That was impressive. Absolutely none of the replies above had any substance Add this to the list: Add this to the list: It's also interesting to note just how much slack is given to the more liberal posters here. Sure, there's an occasional "Ok...that's enough...last warning. But as you can see, the length of plank one can walk seems to be much longer for some people. Predictability, those with the most leeway tend to be the most obnoxious. On a side note, it is an excellent example of the total depravity/inability of man.

Impressive! Good that you are so easily amused. Doesn't take much to keep me entertained. You're doing a fine job.

That was impressive. Absolutely none of the replies above had any substance Add this to the list: Impressive!

I do feel as though I've accomplished something today. I believe I have found the one perfect person still on the planet. It is a privilege. I must admit now, none of my discussions with regard to the need for righteousness and accountability pertain to you. You obviously are righteous in and of yourself and are not in need of help (certainly not from Jesus Christ). His sacrifice and intercession are not for you.

True. I do not deny my presupposition and admit that it influences the way I view the world. Many here, however, refuse to admit theirs.

That was impressive. Absolutely none of the replies above had any substance to them at all. How do you do it winsor?

I absolutely do not claim that a position based on science is false. The problem comes with our disagreement on historical science (based on "presuppositions on beginnings and progression over "millions of years") which is unprovable.) You can only theorize based on very big assumptions. Those assumptions influence your interpretation of results in everything else. It's your worldview. Everybody's got one. It doesn't matter if your Stephen Hawking of Jakee. As opposed to operational science (what we can see, feel, touch, experiment with in a lab, reproduce, falsify, test, etc.). I've got no problem with that. That kind of science (depending on your worldview, of course) is what we see in the world today. Just as the bible describes. That's the easy way out. I might agree with you if you weren't required to presuppose just like I do. I don't believe I ever said you should just believe in God "because the Bible tells you so." I do agree that it is sufficient, however, for belief. But...God didn't leave you with that just like He didn't leave all those before the Bible was written with that. We have been given the creation and your conscience as proof apart from the special revelation of scripture. The Bible just makes it personal. That is why I am not just an intelligent design guy and am a creationist. You, on the other hand (unless you believe that everything always just existed on its own) can't even go in a "circle." You must step off a rock cliff and just assume that the world just somehow, on its own, had an explosive beginning, organized, and sustains itself. But...it's still an assumption on which everything else is balanced. Silly. I agree.

I wasn't even talking to you. Why must your response include the comment listed above?

Winsor, are you really denying that you also begin with presuppositions which then influence how you interpret scientific results? Dude, that is dishonest. Everyone has to begin somewhere. At some point, you must presuppose what you cannot prove in order to progress in this line of thought/study. We just begin with different presuppositions. Mine begins with God as the Prime Mover. All other scientific study is then filtered through that worldview. Your worldview does not account for a beginning, apparently, so there is a big gap. Nevertheless, your worldview progresses with that assumption (unless you again presuppose that everything just always was (just as lacking, in my opinion)) All that follows must be interpreted as such...by something, again, which you cannot prove. I'd still consider it admirable if you'd just admit your presupposition/assumptions, however. I mean, we all know where you stand but it would be nice to see a little honesty. Added: The ironic thing is, you must borrow even the ability to reason from God to then reason against Him. Sad.

Sure. It's a great testiment to the creative nature of God.

No amount of "proof" or argumentation will be sufficient for you. No matter what is said or shown to you will change your heart. I would argue that you will not and even can not believe or have saving faith in Christ without divine interevention. All you are doing is acting like the rebel in the King's courtyard that you are. Every breath you take is on loan from God and you curse him with every breath. There are very good theological reasons for why good and bad happen to everyone (both believers and non-believers). That doesn't matter because you have made up your mind and nothing is going to change it. I admit that the same is true for me. However, it is a lot more complicated than just saying "God did it" (with regard to why things happen as they do) and "placing blame."

Your comments make it seem like you think God owes you something and your going to scoff and complain until you get it.

Apparently I have been resurrected.

I figure, if the rules aren't going to be applied fairly, then the insults aught not be one-sided all the time. There is a steady stream of crap coming from you all the time. Just sending some of it back in your direction whether I get banned or not. You like giving it out...but you don't seem to like getting it back.

It's hard to find anything substantive in these posts worthy of a reply. It's almost like arguing with your 8 year old kid.

Oh, thank goodness. I would be nervous, indeed, if I excited you. And I would be nervous indeed if my credibility (or that of anyone else here) was dependant on your approval. Added: As it stands, I am not nervous.

Is it by your standard alone that one is deemed credible?