nanook

Nope. The cost of wars caused our issues, not the wars were an instrument to put other countries into debt. That's pretty weird thinking. If other countries stop being "hoodwinked" like you suggest, we wouldn't be able to borrow to "send in the troops", therefore can't use your alternative idea of using the Military to cause other countries to go into our clutches of debt. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Exactly. That is, when prices are fair. The eighties were very unfair to gold prices. Also, gold only seem to rise when the dollar is fickle. If the economy recovers, gold will devalue. It can't sustain this inflated price. True. Same with gold. Don't confuse political control with military capability. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Sounds like gold. It's the faith in gold that keeps people wanting it. Nothing tangible. Value created by those who want it. So shiny. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Gold's value increases with speculation and fear. Just like everything else. You buy gold, you better hope the economy never recovers. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

My subconscious says. . .My wife and daughter can take care of themselves. I'm going to the bar. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Depends. What created that subconscious? Nature or Nuture? Did the parents create the right cognitive dissonance to do no harm? Or did the parents bequeathe to you the insecurities of themselves? Maybe subconscious feelings are the things to latch onto as a template of control. Or then, maybe want to dismiss those subconscious pulls. I don't know. I'm stupid drunk right now and it appears that dismissing subconscious pulls instead of aligning them to conscious control is a lose-lose situation. Doing what you feel is right and standing by it with a firm conviction seem more in control than fighting your inner demons. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Yeah. It's style didn't age. Guess functionality beats campy futuristic looks all the time. Look at the MD-11, 747. . .ect. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Be as it may, without their illusional money, you are toast. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

I do. And that's because I am not a penniless hippie. You got to do a lot better than fantasy to argue your point. Just because you do not like the people who provide a means to allow you to feed and clothe yourself doesn't mean that they are weaker than you. You are just acting out like a teenager who doesn't understand their parents' reasoning. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

And this is where you are making some mistakes here: Those " Gucci loafer" wearing fools own the land the mexican labor force is tilling. This is who pays them and grants them permission to be on their land in the first place. Your collapse will affect them too. All land in the US belongs to someone or some entity. Oh, I get it. You have been watching Overboard. Too bad you actually believe this muck. That and many movies are made by people who need to provide an antagonist and go for the easiest emotional belief by the masses (which these movies are tailored for). Spoiled rich brats are a good villian. There is not enough spoiled rich brats in real life to make your hapless table cloth theory a reality. Turn off the TV for a change and think for yourself. Movie/tv producers are trying to make money, not reality. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

I edited my post before you posted. So there will be inconsistency here. I'll just say again what I changed to keep things on track: They/we have worked hard. but not to succeed. To exist. Wrong way of doing things if you want to move forward. Actually, I saw more fat bodies in the low income community; even on the chili fields. The wealthy are a bit more healthier, I find. Migrant workers die a lot earlier in life too. The wealthy are stronger and healthier in general. Also, they, unlike the migrant workers can revert back to basics and have. The migrant workers, however, have never been rich, have no background to revert back up to success after your Armageddon. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

So what you are telling me is that those who did not work hard or had knowledge of how to produce wealth and confort of that time are going to survive better than the people who are extremely practiced at changing their strategy that reflects the period. Any physicist, engineer, stockbroker, business man can learn to farm and grow. People can always move back to physical labor. But, not every person who can plant vitis-vinefera that is not french-american hybrided in Murrieta loam can become a success and lead change that puts them on top. If your financial Armmageddon happens, your migrant workers are not going to fair better. Why are they where they are now? they are poor because they cannot or will not do the things that will make them advance. The economy flip-flopping on everyone will not put them at an advantage because they do not have what it takes to succeed. Instead, the formally wealthy will take charge, again, and become wealthy once more. Wealth is a symptom of successful habits. It is not an end-state of an accident (unless you are Paris Hilton). _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

To be fair, athiests can't make a youtube flick about a christian dying and finding out that there is nothing to go to. The video would only show the christian dying and no punchline. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

So if it is an illusion, then it only confirms my argument that wealth is not finite. The 15% left over for the rest really comes from people not wanting to put in the effort. That's why wealth is measured on material assets, not neccesairly in liquid assets Your proverbial delete button doesn't get rid of your wealth, it only deletes cash. I thought you said money was an illusion. So you are working for a poor man? Is your job an illusion? You see what you want to see. As a child of a chili-picker, I saw a lot of issues and unhappiness within the families I grew up around and with. As an adult who is worth a considerable amount more, I see different, but less, issues. Money makes life easier. It in itself doesn't create happiness, but it supports it. And I'll just lump you with those who misunderstand money. Just like only intelligent people only know how they are different from regular people, only the Rich know why they are more successful than other people. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Your statement is nonsense. As money is only an illusion then monetary wealth is also an illusion. True wealth is measured in knowledge ,health, and personal relationships. True. But only poor people who are usually lazy say that. Kind of like ugly people say beauty is on the inside. However, if you already have knowledge, health, and personal relationships, which almost everybody in the US has, Monetary wealth is the only indicator of true wealth. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html This statement is nonsense due to the underlined: Total US wealth measured at a given time is not the indication of max wealth that can be earned in the US. Wealth is not finite and more can be created. The rich aren't leaving "only 15% for the rest". That 15% can increase if the rest actually did something about it. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

You know that if they believe this, it may not be a deterrence. They may just come in a lot more aggressive. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

I'll agree with you here. The TSA put in place puts restrictions in someone's ability to move as quickly in persuit of their personal choices. Rights are not removed, but annoyance is much higher. In respect to liberty, the TSA may bottleneck it, but liberty lost without them in place will me much higher. This liberty taken away by the bombs finding their way on board. The Gov't policy in place restricting personal liberty a bit or, just as Ben Franklin's fight for Liberty, another force outside putting restrictions for our citizens. In this case, the terrorists. Take your pick. The TSA may not find much bombs, but their presence forces the bad guys to change their tactics. They are forced to use more elaborate schemes that pushes the planning and construction of devices furter out and into areas where we have more ability to fight it. This is where we are winning. The Govt's restrictions are nowhere near the crush of liberty that the bad guys will achieve. Truth is, enough bombing, people will not fly. They won't risk their lives. There may be a considerable amount of bravery in the poplace to say "we will not be afraid of the terrorists", but many will not risk widowing their families for business trips. It's easy to talk tough. So in my opinion, the loss of Liberty isn't present. What's present is the protection of Liberty. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

The people who got to this position to "have to travel" for their business, got here by personal choices they have made in their lives. They do not have to be in this arena. There will always be someone willing to go through these searches for the jobs of their choice. Yes. You are not being told that you can't skydive. I'd fight this, but it would be because I am annoyed by the extra costs and number of rides to altitude rather than some "liberty" claim. There's other options. The Ben Franklin quote in this thread was said approximately before feb 1775. It wasn't some typical quote in the "Poor Richard's Almanac", it was in the remarks of some proposition to Massachusettes who must "suffer all hazards and mischiefs of war, rather than admit the alteration of their charters and laws by the Parliament." This was about going to war over rules the Founding Fathers did not like. This TSA crap isn't an argument about Liberty. It's hyperbole. It's annoyance that is going over the top. You do not have a right to fly on an airline. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Photos/scans of private citizens found all over the internet, near-fatal beatings of some who have teased others over their small 'members', belongings stolen by government agents, loss of dignity for any number of persons by having their diapers (young and old) examined and sexual parts groped is hardly "nothing." This country was founded on the concept of liberty and while your definition and my definition of "liberty" might be different; I'm pretty confident the Founding Fathers never considered the groping of testicles and breasts as being a liberty of the State. Privatizing airports may well help restore at least *some* dignity, but I honestly think we're too far into the government-funded rabbit hole to back out. Government wins, airport wins, the only loser is the traveller. No. It's still not a big issue. You do not have to fly. There's no loss of liberty here. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Section 10 of Article one states that a State cannot pay debt with anything other than gold/silver coinage. Unless I missed somewhere where it says the federal govt are restricted to the same rules, I see it as an ability for the federal govt to allow any form of currency. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Now, I'm not sure if you are championing the gold standard, but today we are still the reserve currency and oil along with the IMF and such provides that ability. We more than likely will not be in the future. Possibly the Euro or even the Yuan. Who knows? But Gold is definitely not the fix that Ron Paul has claimed. It's a dead issue that seems to confuse people and makes him look like he's not all there. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

?? What kind of language is that? There is no "former USA", that's just some weird talk as if the country ceased to be and then re-existed again. Sounds like hyperbole to create a false argument. We didn't get bankrupted. When Germany, who was going through hard times didn't want to devalue thier Mark to keep with the standard decided to float their currency(leave the Bretton Woods agreement) it put us in a financial unease. France demanded 191M to be converted, we paid, made it worse for us so Nixon did a freeze and we floated our currency. We didn't default on France, we abolished the convertability of gold( tomato tomahtoh?) The U. S currency still held by them did not crash. Just not convertible to gold. True on the Oil. But this confuses me: "Federal reserve notes were just around the corner!" Are you referring to Federal reserve notes or Federal reserve Bank notes? _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

That wasn't enough to show why pegging any currency to gold won't work? Nope. Your turn. lets hear your theory. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Because they are not uninformed. This subject is well known and is taught in every economics, finance, business courses in high school, practically every major in college and many conversations. It's not a hard subject and there's easy access to the information. But, what's happening here is this "enlighten us" thing you want is just so you can point out some strange ideas from some libertarian website and references to an obscure 1800s "Austrian school" economist. This is how it will work: I say something, then you say "no, apparently you don't know much about 'subject A'. Here is what this link says." You show some libertarian site and you quote Von Mises. I tell you that it's all bunk and give you reasons why, such as the time period is completely different than from today, or even from the 1930's. You say something about Keynes being wrong and say something weird like even Milton friedman supported him. I tell you that initially Freidman agreed with his premise but changed and modified his theories that, even still, is not what Von Mises ever meant but you will try to twist words, confuse 30's gold standard with the 70's gold standard, misunderstand the context of theories of what happened, will happen. In the end, you will champion Gold completely missing the fact that things that can be fixed in a vacuum cannot be applied when the Cul-de-sac called "the World" is involved whether you like it or not. In reality, this whole charade will be so you can feel like you have some sort of power with the ground-breaking secret knowledge that you have that you think most don't. _____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln