nigel99

Granted the Lib dem's oppossed the war - I am just not keen enough on Charles honesty to want my tax to go up Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

who knows if we wish hard enough we might just get it. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Attached are some direct quotes from the ISG (Iraq Survey Group) report. The report is available in full as a pdf on the BBC website if you want to remove any bias from me cutting and pasting.... It is interesting that peoples "belief" that Saddam would need their jobs again is taken as sinister proof of Saddams intent... Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

So should Blair be left to a purely political judgment on this or should it go on to the ICC? I am not sure the general British public care enough about Blairs lies over Iraq to choose Howard just yet though. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

In this instance it is a case of you make your bed you lie in it. The US & UK took it upon themselves to go to war in Iraq and therefore it is us poor sods who should pick up the bill. The UN nations that did not partake are not obligied to clean up our mess. I am not sure the world appreciate the USA being the police unilateraly either... I am not sure enough on the facts of who is funding the trial and imprisonment of Saddam as an individual to know who is footing that particular bill though? Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I work for the most paranoid person ever created. Wednesday evening 3 of us went out for a beer (small company of 8 people total) - beer consummed in the airfield pub and so cars left in front of the office (the office is on the airfield). The owner was so freaked he phoned me at 10pm to ask why we had a beer. Well to cap it all off Thursday he was in France, and everyone else but the same 3 of us were sick. This left 3 of us on a low productivity day - so we went to the pub for lunch... Now he is literally begging me to let me know what conspiracy is being brewed by the 3 of us. He is accusing me directly of "making" everyone else sick yesterday Not a rant - just extremely funny has anybody else had similar experiences? Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

If I understand you correctly then focusing on other aspects of Saddams life makes his overthrow a worth while byproduct of the war. While there is debate over WMD and the extent of his terrorist connections I do not believe there is any dispute over his human rights records. It is therefore conceivable that he could and should be held to account for his human rights & probably financial corruption charges. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

jeez dude chill out a bit. One thing that this Iraq war did teach me - is NEVER to trust the media at all. I have resorted to reading original reports whenever I can as oppossed to newspaper commentaries etc and it is remarkable how "different" the two can be. Now part of that process is that I have a PDF copy of the September dossier produced by the british government NOWHERE does it state that there was an imminent threat - it was media waffle. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Not at all - I am saying that Iraq was NOT an "imminent threat" either to you or us. I am saying and have said many times that inspections WITH the US forces on the border were working. Prior to the war I oppossed the timing of it - I wanted the UN inspectors to have the time they asked for - only 2 results would have come out of that - Saddam obstructed and the UN agree to attack, inspectors uncover that we have been duped for 12 yrs and he actually hasn't got any weapons. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Ok well I do not think that Asia/Europe border is the classical definition of an ICBM - heck one of Kallends toy rockets is an ICBM in that case Ok so I stand corrected it was not 100km but 100 miles (150km is aproximately 100miles). However it was documented PRIOR to war that the extended range missiles could achieve a whole 193km!!! Wow that means that it could go less than 10% of the distance to the USA! http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/samoud.htm Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Not even the exaggerated intel claimed that Saddam had Intercontinential ballistic missiles. There was absolutely NO evidence or intel that he had such capabilities. The banned SCUD missiles where not ICBM's either? For that matter how many countries even possess ICBM capabilities? Possibly only you and Russia - I am not even sure that the UK has the means? The UK government allowed and encouraged our tabloid press to portray the false impression that we were less than 60 miles from Iraq's borders and hence were threatened. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

The USA is a major and dominant player in the UN - are you saying that your government colluded in this? Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I would say that Bush has showed "gross incompetence" on the world stage. I would argue that he has made the world a more dangerous place for the average US citizen. He has just about single handedly undermined and weakened international diplomacy - who knows when those attributes may be needed to avert a major crisis in the future? Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

If it was a threat to the US then no you don't need international consencus. But even the "prohibited" weapons that Saddam was developing only had a 100km (60 mile) range which mean't that they could POSSIBLY reach bases in Cypress but not much else. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I think you missed my point - I am saying that it was NOT hindsight as the MAJORITY of the security council was against war - BEFORE and not AFTER the fact. As to who's fault the softer attitude towards weapons - heck probably everyone who holds a high political office in all 5 countries that make up the permanent security council for a start - but now with the benefit of hindsight it was actually working Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

stolen Iraqi oil - didn't you know? (a joke - before anybody takes me seriously on this) Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Colin Powell was one of the proponents of "containment is working" not long before the war. The problem is that it was not 12 years of a hardened attitude inspections. Softly implemented non-agressive inspections were implemented for many years. However only once the US were there with their military did the inspections start to work. By implication then it would have been possible for the inspections to continue for a further 12 months and acheive their objective - unfortunately the US administration misjudged how quickly, cleanly and decisively they would win and thought that war would be the "cheaper" alternative - or maybe they just wanted to fight regardless of what was the right thing to do. They were warned and it is not hindsight being perfect as 3 out of 5 of the members of the permenant security council held this view and were against the war. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

well according to one definition it is: A rogue state, in the most general sense, is a state that abides neither by international law nor international standards of proper governance and behaviour Well I think that the US & UK joined those ranks with the Iraq war - including the well stated arguments here on dz.com that the embodiment of international law (UN) is null and void... Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

As a state Iraq may not be sponsoring terrorism but there was a feature last week, where it was shown that Iraq is now the biggest exporter of illicit weapons in the world. This is as a result of the US not securing weapons dumps post invasion and only securing "heavy" weaponry. In short the invasion of Iraq has subsidised Al Quada and given them access to loads of cheap AK-47's, mortors and Surface to Air missiles (comforting to know as I fly commercially at least once a month to the US from the UK and where SAM threats are huge) Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Serious consequences was sold as - if you do not comply we will go to the security council and vote to go to war (that is we will take Step 1 of my previous 1,2,3 list). well if the USA believes that it has the right to declare war on another country without remaining within the framework of international law then it should probably be defined as a "rogue state". As unfortunate as it is law and justice are not always the "easy" option - either locally or internationally. I personally don't find it very comfortable that UK law would allow someone to murder a relative/friend and the murderer get circa 10 years actual jail time - however if the circumstance arose if I took the law into my own hands I would be a murderer - this does not mean ppl would not sympathise. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

Ron, Firstly the UN did not vote for force they voted for "serious consequences" - the USA & UK realised they did not have the majority possible for a 2nd resolution (which they initially pursued and then admitted that it would in essence be better to ask forgiveness than permission) Secondly it worries me that US Congress has the power to "authorise" unilateral action. I am not disputing that Bush would not have been able to go without their concent but this does not mean that international policeing does not need international concent. I believe the correct sequence of events is Step 1 - get authorisation from your citizens to go to war Step 2 - get authorisation from the international community to go to war Step 3 - go to war. On a side note I wish that the charges raised against Blair and Hoon in the Hague would come up for trial soon as it would allow judges to make a decision on all this and save us armchair judges from all our fun Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

not anymore in the UK. For some reason I found this really funny. We now have "compassionate conservatives" on the right and as of this morning we have "tough liberalism" from the liberal democrates on the left. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

I don't know about bikes SA - but I vaguely remember reading it in Scope so it must be true (my teenage interests did not extend to Bike magazines) Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

your right - I actually went off cause it's a general trend here and I find it strange how cautious ppl here are about being "patriotic" in the american sense of the word. I don't actually mind the bank, mosques etc. I just don't fancy my life being dominated by minority interest groups ... Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

the UK is a democracy BUT it appears to me that by and large politics is dominated by minority interests here to name one example why is there a "black police officers society" allowed that does not allow non black membership? Why are minority special interests put so highly on the agenda? Are there Irish police-officer only clubs or jordie only? Seriously I am not condoning bashing minorities they need to be protected from abuse. Remember the head of the racial equalities commission and how he had to resign for abusing a police officer at the cricket pitch - then he gets a £100K golden handshake for breaking the law... Just doesn't sit right with me Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.