Scrumpot

Didn't need to read "the multitude" to get it clear. I recognized and acknowledged it right away. What part of my post (#39 in this thread) did you not understand? Thank you. Feeling's mutual. Best of luck and wishes to you for your successful longevity, both in this sport, and in here. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

RON HAS AN "AGENDA" Ron has personal "ties" and/or a relationship to a certain WS instructor, who is "competitive", or at least in some ways, in "conflict" with Douglas, and his affiliated WS school. I have acknowledged this right from the beginning. 1. In my post (#39 in this thread) here, where I state it quite DIRECTLY: 2. Then again in my post (#44 in this thread), where I am responding to a newby, who for whatever reason has seen fit to try and "smack me down": Just in case any of you may have missed this, in now, all the "white noise". Does that mean that Ron's perspectives and input (and all our resultant DISCUSSION) should be just summarily dismissed as having NO MERIT at all, in ANY way whatsoever? I don't think so. And I have also stated that as well, right from the beginning. There now. To be perfectly clear. Or hopefully so, for those of you who may have (and I am hearing, quite apparently previously HAVE) missed it. I, personally, have actually gotten quite bit of value and benefit from CONSIDERING both sides of the perspective. Regardless of any "agenda"(s) - which I have acknowledged, and recognized may be there. FWIW. Peel those aside people. Or don't. Clearly, YOUR own choice. You all just carry on now in whatever direction(s) or fashion(s) as you all see fit from here. I've asked my questions. I've had them answered. And again - PUBLICLY... at least, to my satisfaction. I am out. Blue Skies guys. -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

But this is like the most "action" we've actually gotten in a long time, in an instructors (topical) thread! Much more of this, and the darn thing is gonna have one of those flames icons next to it, like something outa bonfire or SC. Why so many 3rd party "observers" (thread lurkers) seem to have their panties in a bunch is beyond me. Spot is a big boy. He can handle it, and certainly has the capability (and should be allowed to) either stand or not, behind his own words (post) - he already has. And besides - again, IMHO - at least the substance of the discussion has value, and having differing perspectives has merit. Isn't that the whole point behind having a discussion, or these very forums here even - in the very 1st place? A wise person (certainly not me - and I don't know who to attribute this paraphrased quote to) once said that: "If you've got 5 people in a room all agreeing with you - then you've got exactly 4 entirely unnecessary (or is it useless?) people there." coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Never said I did. But I am an instructor, within the instructors forum, ASKING QUESTIONS, making observations - and attempting to further LEARN. Guess WE should not bother doing this then, or even try to consider multiple POTENTIAL PERSPECTIVES, right? I should have just come to you 1st and exclusively. You've got it ALL figured out. Good for you. Welcome to the sport, and welcome to the forums. Wanna give me even just a little more details as to who you are, so next time I won't clearly make the same mistake(s) of asking any questions, throwing out any suppositions (fully appropriate to do in this forum - hello - BTW) and instead I'll just come straight to you personally, for all the answers! Tell, me - why should we even bother then, if there is always only ONE opinion, perspective, or point of view that is valid? You want all your instructors to be nothing but blind lemming "yes-men"? No need to answer that. We already know clearly where you stand. - You're right. We should all close our minds, and just STFU. Gee, I didn't get that. That went so obviously, well over my head. - Thanks for straightening me out on that one. EDIT TO ADD: Maybe you didn't see my post (#39) above, before you decided to just spout off your authoritative "smack-down" reply? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

LOL. Yeah, okay. I know.... (see attached) coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Like Ron - I was not there. Which is why with my post, I was merely ASKING. Taking my post as anything more than just that - wanting to dig a little deeper (or try to, for someone who was also not there) and maybe understand a little more vis-a-vis the disparate points of view being expressed (no matter who they are between), and/or thinking I also had any "agenda" - would be a mistake. Just "for the record". I think DSE's reply adequately answered my concerns, and I still, personally at least got some value out of the differing opinions. Maybe it was not the intent of the OP to delve "so deep", but oh well - like I say... I at least still, got some value out of it all anyway. FWIW. Thanks Douglas - for the further information, insight and clarification! coitus non circum - Moab Stone

So you're saying in your analogy, that it is your assessment that DSE as an instructor, with this situation presented to him, performed as in your #2 example illustration above? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I'm still surprised and scratching my head here just a bit, (even after reading all the "dick-swinging", which I've also actually found quite interesting - and contrary to some observers consternations, actually taken value away from even that!) over how a student could have actually believed that a common, ordinary Listerine fresh-breath strip - could actually somehow be a mystical magical "breathing strip". I find myself wondering if I might not also have some even further reservations or concerns over the mental capacity, and therefore potential actual performance capabilities (especially if now heaven forbid something MORE just happened to also go wrong during this jump) of such a student who could be clearly "fooled" so easily. I dunno. Just another thought/perspective. ...And to think, that he even continued to ask for, and count on these "magical" (my word, I appreciate you did not use this, Spot) "breathing strips" being made available to him on even (10?) further multiple subsequent jumps too! I dunno. Does that give anyone else in here also, any reservations at all, or cause for pause? Maybe it's just me - but I can also see Ron's side as well, that maybe, just maybe this guy was not fully capable either (as indicated by this) necessarily, to effectively handle any further layered added complication to what he was doing at that point, and thank goodness further unforeseen additional complications did not also arise... that a magical breath-strip could not address. Maybe this is a little devil's advocacy here (yes Ron, you are the devil ) ...but I just can't help but to also at least ask myself sincerely - some of the same questions. And see SOME value actually too, in BOTH sides of this "argument". FWIW. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Again, still - don't count on it. You're probably still NOT going to get another completely go-around 2nd fresh pass. Again - if for any reason you did not feel safe to exit, needed/wanted a "better" spot, and/or asked for a go-around even under the circumstances you are citing - chances are the pilot is going to red-light you and take you to the top with the rest of the load. SOP. You would simply then go to the top, and figure it out again for your next jump. None of your reasons cited warrant a "HAVE TO EXIT, no matter what" - no matter how many (low) passes it may take on THAT PARTICULAR LOAD to get it done. Your single hop-n-pop is not all that critical that it would absolutely HAVE TO BE DONE on that load, just because you wanted (or you had planned) to, in either of the situations you cite either. What makes you think either of those jump scenarios are so important that they would absolutely HAVE TO get done on THAT LOAD? Once again - You would just then in either of those scenarios still - take it all the way up if you did not like the (in transit with an otherwise full load going all the way up) pass (or the spot) given - and then once you are back down - figure it out from there. NBD. FWIW. Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Most places you won't get a go around on a low pass, with a full load going otherwise up to full altitude. Don't want to get out on the particular pass given?... No problem, you just ride all the way to the top is all. True go-around though on an in-transit courtesy set-up low-pass? Probably not going to happen, even if you did want to ask for it. - Just FWIW. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Depends on how big the RW Group is, and/or how many (and exp levels) of those I will be chunking off with me. Also need to consider how many points we will want to successfully turn. - Anything above 2k will do. 3k if I'm going larger than 6-way is all. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Hey Mike, that's pretty good. Here's a couple similar, ... x3! Meaning - 3 groups of 10 each. Each 10-way exiting out of separate aircraft. Yup... 30-way "speed". Single-Point 3 Points! The second one, actually turning 3 points! What's so special about that? ...I'm glad you asked! 1. The jump was done from under 9,800ft AGL (low ceiling forced) 2. These were designated POPS jumps Not bad for a group of OLD FARTS, eh? And to the OP - yeah, 10-way speed (true no-show/no-grip exit) is still around too. Although not quite as common for sure, as it used to be. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Just imagine if the OP was correct in his interpretation though. ...Would sure make those demo's of mass-deployments (like the one just recently posted about all the just "simple" tree landings) a heck of a lot more "interesting" for the spectators now, wouldn't it? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Who ever said ANYTHING about a 10% rate of fatal malfunctions? I know what thread (and post) you are referring to, but your interpretation (and this poll) is just absurd. The quote is a 10% CASUALTY rate. Not fatality rate. For your information - From the US DOD Dictionary of Military Terminology: CASUALTY - There are seven casualty statuses: (1) deceased; (2) duty status - whereabouts unknown; (3) missing; (4) very seriously ill or injured; (5) seriously ill or injured; (6) incapacitating illness or injury; and (7) not seriously injured. See also casualty; casualty category; casualty type; deceased; duty status - whereabouts unknown; missing; not seriously injured; seriously ill or injured; very seriously ill or injured. In short, a casualty is any event or circumstance that takes the soldier out of the active action. Acceptable casualty rate of ~ 10% is stated and quantified for purposes of being able to (in part) calculate accurately - total deployment #'s needed to obtain successful insertion of active battle-ready/capable troops into the theater. Not for stating it is acceptable that ~ 10% of all those dropped will be killed by just the drop itself alone, and that this is "acceptable". Hope this helps clarify. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Or to Spain. But then again, that's where the rain seems to fall the most too, mainly. Or so they say. So might not be so good for skydiving there either now, come to think of it. I'd just fahghettaboutit methinks, altogether. Just stay home. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I friggen hate it when all you little-peeps commoners keep incessantly doing that to me, and think it's somehow cool. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Say what? ...From Bethesda - West Point is easily the furthest out of the others 3 mentioned. Orange and Chambersburg are the closest (Orange south - in VA, Chambersburg north - PA), followed by Delmarva (east - eastern shore). Like someone else has already posted, just pick one (or try all 4 at one point or another if yer around that long) - and HAVE FUN! Each has it's own bene's/nuances. Delmarva is a great, good mix of disciplines welcoming vibe. Same with West Point. Orange is Freeflyer-weighted, and Chambersburg Belly-Flier. Right now, Chambersburg is currently flying easily the fastest climbing jumpship on the east coast, if you are into that. A King Air with new, solid STRONG -28's. 14k in 7 minutes. Turn-around loads in under 15 wheels up to wheels up. Delmarva's open (both physically/geographically and figuratively/personna-welcoming peeps) can't be beat. It is second-to-none in "walk up and feel like you are INSTANT FAMILY" kinda vibe. Orange is more the "hipster" (if you are younger, you'll like here) kinda crowd, and as mentioned, if your a free-flier, probably your most likely choice. CLothing typically optional, after hours. (My kinda "GTWAS" place ) STP - Skydive The Point, West Point is closer to Richmond - but definitely worth the trip! Great MIX of disciplines there, and hard-core Saturday Nights are usually on-tap (along with the Yeager). If you are using your own gear, just make note that Chambersburg and Orange are AAD required DZ's - Delmarva & West Point, for licensed skydivers, are not. Check 'em ALL out if you can, while you are out here. You won't be disappointed, probably - with ANY of 'em. Hope the added detail and color is of some help. Enjoy your trip - and WELCOME! Hope you enjoy your stay. ...Speaking of which too - BTW - Bunkhouses are avail at both Orange & C.Burg if you need to "crash" overnight. Sleeping bags and hangar/floor (or shared trailer, if available) are the shtick currently at either Delmarva or the Point. Safe, fun skydives to you - no matter where you end up/whichever ones you try! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

P.S. - I thought this might be apropos too, where we are talking about Woodbine as well now, in this thread. I found this poem about Woodbine, actually posted-up on that Oldtime Skydiving Board, previously linked. Thought it might also get at least a chuckle: WOODBINE PARACENTER Woodbine closed up around '80 or '81 and a bunch of us got together for a reunion party in 1994. Here's a poem I wrote for the occasion that you may be able to relate to: MEMORIES OF WOODBINE Nothing could be finer, than to be an old "Woodbiner" and to have a "get-together" with the crew. We'll drink a bunch of beers, and talk about the years it's been since ol' two-seven-X-ray flew. Back then we'd pound the ground, and try to stand up with a round, the knees and ankles really took a beating, Or land 'out' and walk a mile, but I know what would make you smile, good ol' Richard just convened a "safety meeting"!!! Well, the whuffos ask you, "Why, plummet headlong through the sky", and they'd wonder, "What's the greatest thing you risk?" 'Course you'd tell them of the terror of flat spins and jumper error, but not the dreaded 'meadow muffin' disk!! They'd say, "It takes a lot of guts!" or "You must be a little nuts! to leave a perfectly good airplane while in flight!" But then, how can you explain, that when you look up at your main, what they call foolish never felt so right. They could never understand just how it feels the time you land, and realize the wondrous thing that you just did. Doesn't matter if you're 'old', thirty-something, full of mold, you feel just like a sixteen year old kid! Now a night down at the bar would make us yearn to build a 'star', and when the time would come, we'd try hard not to blow it. But more often times than not, we would funnel, flip and flop, we were doing freestyle, we just didn't know it! Hesitation when I dump, now I've really got 'the lump', after this jump I'll be ready for a drink. FUNCTION JUNCTION!!!! Holy cow!!! Capewells please don't fail me now, feet and knees together, here we go....KA-CHINK!!! Now the part I like the best is how it snivels off my chest, and I'm hoping that there won't be any trouble, Then it's open...big and round, and I'm still above the ground, YAHOOOOO, better make that drink a double! Running hard from Woodbine Road, 'cuz the spotter was a toad, eyein' up the runway 'cuz there ain't a breeze, But wait...the outhouse looms in sight, now give it just a little right, and I might get that extra lift and make the peas!!! Well I long for those old days, back when Woodbine was the craze, and everyone just wanted to have fun. But the memories remain about ol' Kephart and his plane, now I need a beer, it's time for me to run. Copyright 1994 D.E.Widerman Posted about 7 months ago coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Bob Mehl is an ex-Woodbiner, and I will see him (I think) this weekend. I will ask him for you. In the meantime, there is also this group on facebook: Old Timers / Old Timey Skydiving Check through & sift through that in the meantime. Many peeps, such as Dean Widerman (for sure another ex-Woodbiner from around that era), Big-Pat Monaghan (RIP), Joey DiClementi and others from around here, and those times are thoroughly interspersed throughout. I wouldn't be surprised you actually find for yourself, maybe something as well, there. Hope this helps! Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Hey Jim - Did anyone ever get back with you on this? I know several "ex-woodbine" jumpers (...and wasn't Walt an old "ex-pelican" too? - I think I recognize the name) and I would be happy to ask around for you. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Here's where #5 actually works well in practice, in my experience... Bad spot (rare, but it happens) - and ALL are going to land off. Sync'd radio with the instructors who also just jumped with the student, can still effectively talk that student safely down to them - where they can clearly and safely see them - to them, all the way to the ground and fixed ground radio back at the DZ may not be able to clearly see them. I have seen this work well in practice. If both AFFI's have sync'd radio's with them - again, this is extremely rare to happen - but still, logistically is still "covered". One makes it back & the other doesn't? ...When each lands - you look up and locate your student. If it is best the guy who made it back talks them back to the DZ, then that's what you do. Again though - if the student looks short - - - it might be best that the other instructor (presumably also short in this illustration) talks the student to them. Simple enough to quickly and efficiently communicate & decide. Remember - you've each got radio's now WITH YOU, on the same channel. In response to the poster who was worried about "what if the instructor bounces" - again, still simple enough, even on a single-instructor dive with the student. Remember, these are FRS radio's - just need to have sufficient supply on-hand... Which really is not hard (or overly expensive, really) to do. On the student roster-board, until they have landed and returned ("checked in") their name is still up on the board, along with their load #, assigned instructor(s), AND their set radio freq.! - We use primarily 2, but up to only 4 (as that is the max # of AFF students we will potentially ever have in the air simultaneously - but you can still apply this to whatever # needed, practically) SET FREQUENCIES (options) to choose from. So - even if (god forbid) an instructor went in - or had a mal & landed off - someone on ground crew would simply grab a radio, match it to the freq needed & take over. No problem. That's how it works at one of the 3 DZ's I routinely instruct at anyway. The other 2 of the 3 uses single-radio (and designated radioperson) on the dz. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Right on! ..."I can do it myself" coitus non circum - Moab Stone

By-the-way, that's a great shot of one for sure, too! ...Tink - you should submit that somewhere, for the record - so the next time someone else is searching similar - maybe they'll use YOUR picture as the confirmation/example. GREAT SHOT!

Can't see the tops of his wings ("shoulders") - but body-type, size, head-kneck size, etc. all match-up to a (fairly common here in MD) Red-Shouldered Hawk. EDIT TO ADD: I know this shot is of one perched - but take a good close look at it. I think they match up. What makes you think it is not a Red-Tailed Hawk, Tink? That was almost immediately, my very first thought (and therefore reply) - and now only further re-affirmed I think, by the pic I just also found in the above link. FWIW - I think most likely, red-shouldered hawk. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

THIS Ad, just SOLD ME! Just across Germany's northern-most border with Denmark you'll find an incredible superstore called Fleggaard. There, you can buy everything you need - tubs of gummi bears, cases of wine, industrial strength dishwashing soap, etc. etc. - all at prices 30% cheaper than you'll find in Germany . It is Denmark's Costco, packaged as a German loophole. This is their advertisement! ------------------------------- Now, to update my passport, get the flight(s), make the shipping/transfer arrangements all needed, etc. Do the Outlet Power Connection Conversions things no doubt also necessary as well - and I'M GONNA SAVE A BUNDLE!! BWAAAAAAA.... But - the commercial, ahhh, the commercial. Enjoy!! coitus non circum - Moab Stone