Scrumpot

Even if they did - we all know it would not be the individual skydiver "violating" anyway. Same as per ramp-checks (which have been conducted) for out-of-date reserves - FAA applies their recourse against the certificated pilot of the aircraft being used in the operation, and not the PIC of the skydiving gear itself. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Sorry - Short (direct) answer: I am not against them, for Tandem Instructors to have them available to them, to use them, for tandem jumps, in a tandem environment. Why do you ask? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I am not a TI. Nor have I ever been even on a tandem jump, ...on either side of the equation (student/passenger or Instructor) personally. So, I don't know if I have the capacity to state a qualified (relevant) comparative opinion. I have however, seen handcam footage done by TI's who use them, and I have seen a few of their set-up's (on the plane, around various DZ's etc.), and I've heard some of the arguments and debate about them, back-n-forth. I don't know if any of that however, is materially germane (or qualifies my "opinion" as they may apply to tandems) here though. My (unqualified) opinion on them for tandems, where you have asked me - and just so as to simply not avoid the question, is that I am not anti-handi-cam for tandems, or abjectly against them for that application (Tandems) - at least as I have observed it. ...But am I qualified to (effectively) further debate or quantify that? Or - specifically delve into the further appropriate application (or not) considerations that would go into ...all the pro's & con's as it would relate at least to Tandem usage and the application (usage) of them in the tandem environment? Or then, even further compare & contrast therefore, any of the nuances or differences as they might apply towards comparing the 2 applications (handi-cam usage in a tandem environment versus an AFF environment)? - No. Because I am not a TM/TI. I'm afraid therefore, I probably cannot add any value to discussing comparison of using a handi-cam set-up in a Tandem Environment, or am able to myself, either find or apply relevance between the 2 - if that is the direction you would now like to go. Maybe others with dual ratings can do that with/for you. I am not Tandem rated, nor directly, personally experienced. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

True, but... Remember, 1st and foremost in any instructors obligation to their student, is their (relative) SAFETY. I will only merely add that the extent of "customer service" stops (in my mind clearly) at the line where safety could be breached. Just for an example: I once had a student who was so CLEARLY stressed on the plane, and through his actions both during climb, and jumprun/movement to the door/set-up CLEARLY demonstrated to us as instructors, that our taking him out of the plane would have been an excessive danger and unnecessary risk to him if we did. We opted to move him back in plane, let the tandems exit around/by us, and take him down with the plane. Later - this student was actually quite upset with us, and insistent that "he paid his money - he should have been allowed to exit/jump NO MATTER WHAT". Now, if he came on here, and complained one-sidedly that he was either "man-handled" and/or in any other way as a result of his experience, dis-served, would he probably convince some of you that oh-yes, he was absolutely right, and "bad instructors, bad instructors"! - ? Just some food for further thought (and perspective) is all. And for the record, I *KNOW* and am not saying that this is the case necessarily of what happened here in this specific case. ...Again, just food for consideration / PERSPECTIVE is all. - FWIW. Hoping (sincerely) that all your student experiences out there are absolutely nothing by soft, warm/fuzzy, puffy... Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Fair enough - and I am happy to also participate in this as well. As mentioned - I have seen I think, in-air, at least once, almost the exact same thing. A bridal that went under the arm of the self-deploying student, and caused a temporary horseshoe (bridal temp snagging at the students armpit as a result and standing the student nearly upright) during his (was a her actually, in my case) deployment sequence. I was reserve-side for that jump (same as you) - and the only thing I could do at the time (it cleared itself, thankfully - very quickly) was all that I could, and as I was trained - which was to keep my grips to assist with the "ride-out" and do all that I can/could to hold the students (relative) stability. ...IOW, keep them from also turning/tumbling/spinning and possibly thereby potentially worsen their situation if I wasn't there by (potentially, I suppose) wrapping themselves in the bridal, or flipping through deploying lines. I recall the - OH-SHIT moment it inflicted as well, and luckily for me (and apparently for you too) the situation rather quickly, cleared itself. Had the bridal wrapped and not cleared - what would I have done? Would have depended upon the altitude and situation I had on-hand. In other words, you need to be prepared for nearly anything with/in an AFF jump, and expect... the unexpected! That is also why, I don't (personally) think, having a hand-cam on my hand - for nearly any situation I can possibly envision, can in any of them, in any way - possibly ever be of any help. But, it could possibly be a detriment. I am willing to at least consider changes to either my procedures, and/or my equipment used in AFF jumps, as an AFF-I based upon shared wisdom, or collective experience garnered best-practice feedback received. - Are you? So far, it seems as though you are not, and your only intent here remaining now, is unwaiveringly defending your use of the handcam, and that no matter what... you intend to be intractable in that. Just for another example - I am right now also seriously reconsidering my personal (so far) choice to wear / use a fullface helmet on my AFF-I jumps. This is due to another unusual (remember, expect the UN-expected!) situation I personally witnessed - A student REFUSING to release their hackey! ...I don't mean just hesitation or temporary either. I mean the death-grip kind, where junk is now starting to lift out of the main pack-tray and they/we are humming below (their) hard-deck and repeated hand-sweeps, then even hits (beatings ) to their deployment hand by the main-side instructor was not even successful. The mainside instructor in this case (again THANKFULLY) had an open-face helmet, and I watched - again with - while holding the main-bag in place on the students back (felt like the right thing to do in the situation at the very moment) - as the mainside instructor drove in on the student and bit (yes BIT!) the students hand (hard too!)!!! - The student immediately then released, and as the pilot chute then launched, I also simultaneously released the d-bag, and the student actually had a nice, clean "routine" (from there on in) deployment. Had it been me there, over on that main-side, with my full-face on, I would not have had that capability/option available to me to do that. Hopefully, this now - is also contributing, and is the added discussion from your initial post you were looking for, and is also of some further value, to you. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Here's the thing Steve... The picture you posted, although an interesting shot angle/perspective in of itself notwithstanding, is something that if you are an AFF instructor with anything more than even just a couple-hundred of AFF-I jumps, we all have probably already seen, in one (similar) way or another. As I've mentioned, I don't (relatively - and relative to a lot of the other AFF-I's on here, and out there) have that much more AFF-I experience than you, and I can tell you I've seen this almost exactly. As well as bridal wraps around a student wrist (temp/cleared), students who will hold their hackey with a death-grip out at full arms extension, etc. The one thing I hadn't seen (or heard of) before, was the (an) AFF-I using a GoPro hand-cam, on his AFFI jumps. So yes, naturally, that is what I have centered/focused on. Is it possible for you to perhaps upload somewhere, the outside video of this jump, and post a link to it for us to see / try to learn from? Would you be willing/able to do that? I truly would like to be able to OPEN-MINDEDLY view/consider all angles and aspects (both literally and figuratively ) on this subject matter. I would hope as an instructor - you would be willing to do the same. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

So there was outside video on this jump? What was the purpose of the go-pro handcam then? I'm confused. I've got a personal experience story I was thinking of posting, that would (and does) - at least for me - make me seriously reconsider (which I have now, and I think I still stand by my original comment that I would as an aff instructor, and at least for AFF jumps - deep-six the hand-cam) taking a hand-cam on AFF jumps, as an AFF instructor is probably not best practice. Either side, or - either hand. But I doubt, based upon what I've seen of your replies (both to me and others) so far, that you really care to hear it. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I would be very interested in seeing it. Can you post some pictures? I am also an AFF instructor - with actually not all that much more experience than you state you have, instructing AFF - just around 300 or so AFF-I jumps. I just cannot envision much benefit of a hand-cam (especially go-pro) in/during an AFF jump is all (you say yourself that the in-air shots are mostly "useless"), but I can envision added risk/detriment - so again, for me (yes ...and I did say for ME) I agree with another poster's perspective - I don't think I would use/do it. No need to be offended, and/or adversarial about it. I am willing to listen/consider, and try to understand. No "Monday morning QB'ing" going on here at all. - Did I say anything at all disparaging in any way about anything really at all, to do with the jump itself? However, this is the INSTRUCTORS forum, where I did think too, that as fellow-instructors, we are/were supposed to share between us, our feedback an observation(s). So then, if we think we see something we are either not sure of - or yes (heaven forbid) - even outright disagree with ...are we supposed to just say nothing? Sorry if you took my post as any way adversarial, and I suppose maybe I could have phrased it a bit better, so how about I apologize and we start over/try again? ...In context - - - - I was replying rather to another poster's statement/position observation, that for me I had merely (at least at 1st) agreed with. Feel free to help enlighten me then, on the offsetting values/benefits of taking the Go-Pro up on an AFF jump as a (specifically) hand-cam. I can see it (certainly) for a Tandem. But I do think it IS worthwhile, and worthy of further discussion (and yes, possibly even "scrutiny", although I do not want you to take that as some sort of personal affront) for us now as a result of seeing this - to further discuss and consider. You've already mentioned 2 areas/items I had not previously considered: 1. Photos of the landing(s) and 2. Photo of the presentation of the first-jump certificate Can I/we also discuss maybe the potential down-sides / pitfalls as well, without you getting defensive? Let's try. You're right, I haven't seen your set-up at all, so maybe I am all wet, and it is me who needs a little further education on it. I'm willing to accept that. So... Would you mind then, possibly please ...yes, please do if you would - Post up a few shots of your set up, so I/we can see it. I promise, at least for me... I will NOT be "disparaging" - just for the sake of being a keyboard posting-prick, just out-of-hand. I really would like to see what you are using, learn (and consider) more about it ...and then if you wouldn't mind, possibly then maybe even ASK you some more questions about it, if it seems appropriate to consider more, and/or if in any way I do not understand. I would appreciate (sincerely) your willingness to further repartee on this. I think the additional consideration, and discussion of it, CAN have value. Thank you for at least considering it. For both our potential learning sake. How is that? TIA, and Blue Skies, -Grant coitus non circum - Moab Stone

I agree with "Canadian". I think I would stand-down the Go-Pro set-up on the hand for my AFF jumps. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That is a key observation, and I have bolded the most further key component winthin that quote/observation. This has been said before, in fact - over & over; yet continually, from no-matter-who's perspective or side of this argument - it seems to almost always get conveniently forgotten: THE key difference between ALL these other "extreme sports" and/or high-risk activities, and minor(s) participation in them, actively/"routinely" taking place as compared to skydiving: is the AVAILABILITY OF REASONABLY AFFORDABLE LIABILITY COVERAGE (INSURANCE PROTECTION) being made available for them, ...to the respective activity providers/business owners. So long as that DOES NOT EXIST for the "industry" of skydiving - then "underage" participant activity by and large (valid risk comparisons or not, notwithstanding), just will not occur. Mike Mullins hits the nail precisely on the head with his last sentence (bolded/emphasis added by me) in the above quote. Argue for & against for it amongst ourselves all you (we) want - but until someone can convince a bonifide liability coverage underwriting industry (the business liability insurance industry) any differently - which I'm not saying can't be done - just does not seem like anyone is even paying any attention to this avenue EVER, is all - and completely just misses/glosses over it... It just aint (as a "mainstream" common-place/accepted basis) gonna happen. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Not entirely so. In the U.S. anyway, FFI on the subject matter: United States Department of Labor - State Directory on workplace-related substance abuse law(s) coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Whatever happened to the hot chick "surprise host(s)" we were promised, Spot? I call BAIT & SWITCH!! As usual, nice job regardless, bringing just a bit of the PIA, to those of us homebound, and unable to attend. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

You want to take your personal skydiving rig, into the wind tunnel? Is this what you are asking for advice on? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

WRT specifically Magnetic Riser Covers (versus tuck-tab), there was a whole thread recently dedicated to this, and a more in depth video embedded there as well, if that is the direction you are going, and/or looking at considering as any factor relevant to this thread anyway - already exists, HERE coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yes. At Chambersburg we have several set-up (with old F111 canopies in 'em) designated training rigs. I find it does make their transition over to their own gear, later on when they get it, that much easier, as at least they have a decent concept of how it SHOULD go, before they end up having to handle/struggle with new Zero-P. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

That's easy - just show up high as a kite when you set your baseline, and yer good! In all seriousness though, measurement based on PERFORMANCE abilities although can be argued to be ideal, unfortunately are not the standard however, by which accident investigators will also measure, post incident. So long as "authorities" are drawing blood, and/or reporting/relying on (and family attorneys, the courts etc., etc.) using sample contaminant measures as their standard - this system is really nothing more than wishful banter, a complete "non-starter" right from the get-go (and wasted expense in any case) even unfortunately, as it may pertain (or I assert not) in real world application. At least as it stands in current standards (social) systems. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Well, if your profile is correct, you've accumulated under 600 total jumps in over 10 years. If your "pace" remains relatively the same, I'd think your investment in the new canopy, as amortized over TIME as your benchmark for a lifespan, is very well spent. You should get a good 20 years+ out of this canopy then. Does that about cover your "canopy for life" - last new canopy purchase coverage desire? Only you now, hold the answer to that. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Most BSR's even in of themselves are "waiverable". Anybody know the status of this particular BSR here? Somehow possibly even itself "waiverable" by specific DZ's? coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Yes, so I cut that B* away, and found a new one, who did not give anywhere even near the level of grief over it (and she is a whuffo too ...well, one tandem & decided it was not for her) all. If your SO truly loves you, and you in all other ways maintain your balance and RESPECT in your relationship, your interests, hobbies, etc. really SHOULD NOT MATTER. Some will use it as an excuse to "mask" their other issues. My 1st wife I had when I started jumping for instance, used to give me a TON of grief whenever I wanted to go out to play a round of golf. Then, when I took up skydiving - tried to tell me she was gonna buy me a country club membership. - B.S.! If your relationship is good, and you truly do love and respect each other and trust one another - it really SHOULD NOT matter. ...Although I do appreciate and am sensitive to that, sometimes it does. A lot can depend too, on how overly "obsessed" or not as well, you become with it. - If the S/O doesn't want to see all skydiving videos and hear jump stories incessantly at every turn, simply respect that is all, and don't inundate him/her with them. Make sure between you, that you still share at least some other mutual interests, and continue to also pay attention to those as well. In short, if your relationship is good, and you do truly already have mutual respect between you, it really should not matter, or become an issue. A lot will depend on how YOU approach it. For those that have intractable S/O's, well - chances are, that they would probably just at some point find something else to become intractable about anyway. Skydiving in a split skydiver/whuffo relationship becomes just an easy scapegoat excuse in those cases, of convenience is all. - That's the way it was for me anyway. FWIW. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Wendy - as usual, you are who I want to be when I grow up! HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!!

That, and hang their non-skydiving crap-laden duffle-bags, fanny-paks, etc. etc. - taking up valuable rig pegs space too! Today must be pet-peeve venting day. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Unfortunately, whuffo's don't attend Safety Day. coitus non circum - Moab Stone

It was "FLAVOR-AID" DAMMIT (pet-peeve time)... The bastard (Jim Jones, referring to here - no PA's on any parties hereto) couldn't even serve up his minions the fricken real stuff for cryin' out loud!! Get it right. [/rant] coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Or, maybe he was just trying to keep control of his student to avoid this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHtPDjGE8RU&NR=1 coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Viking - As I've just had so aptly pointed out to me via PM as a result of me having posted my picture here - it looks like the screw pattern of the alti's back is perfectly square! ....Have you tried removing the screws, simply then rotating the back 90', then putting it back on with the strap attachments then resulting in the 9 - 3-o'clock position? I (MAY) STAND CORRECTED! ...Looks simple enough now actually, that I re-look at it, that yes, you COULD simply remove the back, rotate it 90', re-attach it and be "good". ....or..... when that is done, will it interfere with the "thumbwheel adjustment access" - when I now look closer at the outer housing, the "cut-out access" only seems to be at 9 & 3. The strap mount access is considerably smaller/tighter. I wonder if a little dremmeling to that might actually still work though, or if you still would have enough access to the adjustment wheel even "as-is"? EDIT TO ADD: Here's a picture of it at more of an angle where you can see the housing cut-out's for both the thumbwheel (adjustment) access, and the strap attachment point. If you rotate this back by 90', I don't know that the strap attachment might interfere with the thumbwheel access (the back definitely will as it is not "cut-out" where the straps attach), and then that you would have enough unfettered access via the much smaller / thinner housing cut-out that exists only to accommodate the strap only that would remain "open" by doing the rotation. Maybe I/we will just have to try it and see. coitus non circum - Moab Stone