Robert99

Blevins, You have either ignored or provided flippant and/or incorrect answers to the previous questions put to you. So your quote above fits you perfectly. Robert99

Blevins, You are entitled to believe anything you want. And, of course, you do regardless if it is true or not. You do not know how actual research is done, this has been proven by your incompetent research on KC. A number of people, including myself, are researching the DB Cooper hijacking in an effort to determine who DB Cooper was. By your own statement, you are trying to prove that KC was Cooper and nothing more. And you are NOT going to rush me or any other DB Cooper researcher into jumping to false conclusions just to satisfy your own timeline. So don't get the idea that your second grade school kid tactics are working. Robert99

My, my, Blevins, you are crabby tonight. If, and when, the un-redacted Seattle ATC Center's radio transcripts for the hijacked flight become available, then we will have "facts", real honest-to-God facts, to work with. In the meantime, there is nothing to support your claim that the map in question is correct and there are plenty of errors on it as I have pointed out since 2009. That was about a year before you arrived on this thread. Also, if you feel that there is a fixed date to prove things, then what is the fixed date by which you will prove your claims about KC? It may take quite a bit of time to get the facts, but patience usually pays off. Robert99

Um. Then why did co-pilot Rataczak say he could see the lights of Vancouver as they approached Portland...on his RIGHT side? I think the map is accurate, and since Agent Larry Carr calls it the flight map in his video, that makes it reasonably official. Those other items at the website are just a collection of all the newspaper clippings and notes in a big PDF file called the Cooper Vault. Some ARE official, since they were created by the Bureau. Others are not of course. ***'there are reasons for believing the crew elected to fly almost straight south...' What reasons? You state this argument and then leave off the primary evidence for the argument itself. Just saying. You're trying to put the airliner miles west of the map, clear on the other side of the Interstate 5 freeway before it got to Vancouver. That's a tall order and requires proof. Blevins, How about citing a source for your claim that Rataczak said he could see Portland "on his RIGHT side". In reality, I think Rataczak just said that he could see the lights of Portland. Period! You and Jo Weber try to claim that since Rataczak was seated in the co-pilot's seat on the right side of the cockpit, that he could not see anything on the left side of the aircraft even when it was miles away. There is information online about the viewing angles from the pilot and co-pilot seats of the 727. It would be a good idea for you to check it if you feel your original claim is correct. On your map claims, why don't you present some proof that your claimed flight path is correct? And how do you explain away the errors in times and distances on your flight path map? Claims based on "faith" won't work here. You need some facts. Further, why didn't you mention that a flight path over the Tina Bar area would eliminate the possibility of either KC or Duane Weber being DB Cooper? Which in turn would greatly reduce the chances of your making a buck off you "KC was Cooper" efforts. Still further, the logic for bypassing Portland on the west side is given in my original post. Perhaps you should actually read it. Robert99

Your talking about normal flights. This was no normal flight. When they fly low, at 10,000ft, they tend route via strange paths, especially when mountains are near When approaching Portland, it's clear they were going around that airport. I don't know, it's what we have. Saying that because something was redacted doesn't change the flight path. We have nothing better to go by. Even if they were way west, they would have also had to screw up the jump time by at least 5-7 minutes or more.... for any natural means Tina bar find. Blazer, While the airliner was on the ground being refueled in Seattle, the flight crew was passed a message from the FAA's Chief Psychologist to the effect that Cooper would probably take a hostage with him and then use the bomb to blow up the airliner when he jumped. Co-Pilot Rataczak suggested that they climb above the overcast and then fly out over the Pacific Ocean and stay out there until Cooper jumped and blew up the plane if he intended to do so. That way, the aircraft debris would fall into the ocean and not into a populated area. Rataczak was overruled on that suggestion. But the point was clear, the flight crew was not going to fly a bomb carrying airliner over a highly populated area, such as downtown Portland, if they could avoid it. Additionally, when the airliner took off from Seattle the crew didn't know if they would have enough fuel to make it to Reno. That is why there were a lot of communications (over the ARINC radio system) between the airliner and the NWA Aircraft Performance Group in Minneapolis, during the first 30-45 minutes after takeoff, passing information on such things as fuel flow, ground speed, and actual aerodynamic performance. It was only when the airliner was near Portland that the crew was informed that they should be able to make it to Reno. Also before takeoff in Seattle, the crew was informed that they were free to do whatever they needed to do as far as flight path and altitude changes and that Seattle ATC Center would keep other aircraft out of their way. When the airliner reached the Mayfield Intersection (now named the Malay Intersection and near Toledo), there are reasons for believing the crew elected to fly almost straight south (with respect to the grid lines) and thus bypass Portland on the west side while rejoining V-23 south of Portland near the Canby Intersection. THAT COURSE WOULD RESULT IN THE AIRLINER PASSING ALMOST DIRECTLY OVERHEAD OF TINA BAR AT ABOUT 8:12 PM, WHICH IS THE ESTIMATED TIME THAT COOPER JUMPED. I have previously mentioned to you that the four red "x" marks on the so-called "FBI map" are probably the most important marks on that map. Get yourself a ruler and line it up with the two most western marks and see where the intersections with V-23 are, then do the same thing with the two most eastern marks. These marks were probably made by the Seattle ATC Controller who was vectoring several aircraft to intercept the airliner from behind. The MOCA (Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude) for the airliner in the Portland area was 5000 feet ASL and never more than 10,000 feet ASL until it was in Northern California and needed to climb to 11,000 feet when it left V-23 to head direct to Reno. And they had plenty of help from Oakland ATC Center in avoiding higher terrain on that segment of the flight. But terrain clearance in the Portland area was NOT a problem. To repeat, the map that you, Blevins, and Jo Weber seem to love is NOT an "official" FBI map even if it is on their web site. At the same time, all the newspaper clippings and other things on that web site are NOT "official" FBI documents either. The only realistic route for the airliner to follow in the Portland area would be to bypass Portland on the west side and thus reduce the distance and the flying time. Robert99

Jo, This post should have been addressed to yourself. Robert99

Don't forget to add "alcoholic" to your DZ resume, Robert Nine-Nine. Will you come visit me in prison? Please do. Bruce, I don't drink and so far I have never been in a jail house or prison even as a visitor. I might make an exception for you, but do your best to stay out of those places. Robert99

Jo, You have now progressed from just being irrelevant to being silly and irrelevant. Congratulations! Robert99

*** I never accused Georger of being involved in JFK.... Jo, You did say that about Georger. And in the same breath, you claimed that I was a blood relative of Duane Weber. Previously, you have claimed that I was a troll living under a bridge, an ass, a phony, a moron, a plant from the FBI to keep the DB Cooper case from being resolved, and other such names. You don't know me well enough to know if the above claims have any validity. But when you claim that I am a blood relative of Duane Weber, you have crossed the line. The gloves are now off and there is no going back. Robert99

The term "Cooper Royalty" was actually invented by the ever modest RobertMBlevins to describe people who disagree with him and refuse to accept his pronouncements about KC based solely on his unsupported claims. Robert99

Jo, The above post is just more of your nonsense and a total product of your overworked and stressed out imagination. Save yourself and the rest of the human race from more confusion and stop trying to explain things that you don't understand (by your own admission) and know absolutely nothing about. Robert99

Well, lets see. They had hours to plan for it. THey had primary radar tracking, they had military radar tracking, they had chase planes. We have two pilots who knew V23 very well. We have the FBI saying "early 70's" the map was created. This Video time index 1:51 If I didn't know any better, I'd say your implying they basically made it up recently and are covering up something else. Do you really think they didn't have a map, and spend a great deal of time immediately following the event to create a timeline and map? They reproduced the flight in order to further hammer the details of the map with most probably jump times. What good is knowing the time if they didn't have any idea where the plane was. I know Carr was on the basis he died, and attempted to adjust his thinking of where the jump was (basically he was thinking mabey he jumped later, landing zone furthur south). But he precludes those statements with words like we think, perhaps etc. Nope, the flight path and times are in most all probable likelihood, correct. It doesn't fit your puzzle pieces, which is ok, it doesn't fit anybodies. Yet. Here are some questions for you to consider. The first one is repeated from my post which you quoted above. Why did the FBI redact (or remove) from the Seattle ATC radio transcripts of the communications with the airliner all information that could be used to determine its position? It should be remembered that these radio communications and corresponding radar information are routinely recorded by the FAA's Air Traffic Control Centers. Why were ALL the aircraft in the Portland area that were trying to join up with the airliner vectored to the west and southwest sides of Portland? This includes Himmelsbach's helicopter. What do those four small red "x" marks on the southwest side of Portland on the "FBI map" mean to you? They are probably the most significant marks on that map. I can personally guarantee you that NO pilot, airline pilot or otherwise, would fly such a wandering route as is presented on the map for the airliner in the Portland area. You may have to take my word for it, but pilots can fly aircraft in a straight line and the airlines do so most of the time. And they can also stay on the centerline of Victor airways. Perhaps we will have more accurate data on the flight path someday. If this comes to pass, it will probably be the result of a decision by a lady who is probably younger than Blevins bomb making witness. And the lady does not have to rely on a 43+ year old memory. Robert99

Blevins, Do you know the definition of circular reasoning? How do you know who put that flight path on the so-called "FBI map"? The answer to both of the above questions is that you don't. During your time on this thread you have never provided a meaningful answer to questions about your claims. Basically, your answers are "non-answers" involving a lot of ducking and weaving and trying to change the subject. Robert99

Robert are you the one who picked up those last transcripts copies...the FBI did not REDACT them? They simply didn't have them.....there was a qliche and they did not get all of it. What they had is when Portland stepped in - someone there was trying to record OR make transcripts of the communications but, I do not know how....those communication went POOF a few yrs ago....after the FBI learned they existed. Jo, First the responses to my post that you have placed in the quoted section above are bullshit (to use your favorite term). You are trying to explain away the simple truth that the ATC radio communications and radar returns are recorded on tape routinely for ever airliner flight. The Seattle ATC radio communications with NWA 305 were transcribed to paper on November 25, 1971, which was Thanksgiving Day and less than 24 hours after the hijacking incident. And the Chief of the Seattle ARTCC certified that those transcripts were complete. The complete Oakland ATC radio communications transcripts were in the hands of the FBI within a week of the hijacking. You claim that these transcripts were incomplete when presented to the FBI is an outright lie. And there are 19 areas of redaction in the Seattle ATC transcripts that were done by the FBI. Your claim that some controllers from Atlanta were somehow involved in this matter and screwed it up is silly beyond belief. Unfortunately, you don't and never will understand just how silly. You claim that you don't lie. Yet you accuse Bruce of murdering Cossey and Georger of being responsible for the death of JFK. You need to find a good shrink and get your head straightened out. Robert99

Blazer, Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you said in your first post here that you had read all the previous posts in this thread. You apparently missed some. In reference to the so-called "FBI map", Ralph Himmelsbach is reported to have said that he had NEVER seen that map until recently. Other posters have said that the individual who posted that map here was actually asking where it originated and not representing it as being anything "official". Perhaps you have noticed some difficulties with the times and locations that are shown on that map. For instance, an airliner flying at constant ground speed does not travel 3 nautical miles in one minute and then 6 nautical miles in the very next minute. If you have read the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center's transcripts of the radio communications between the Center and the hijacked airliner as it flew from Seattle until it was handed off to the Oakland Air Traffic Control Center in Northern California, you may have noticed some omissions. All information in the Seattle ATC transcripts that could be used to pinpoint the location of the airliner have been redacted. You need to take a look at the Oakland ATC transcripts to see how aircraft communications were actually conducted in 1971. So just exactly what is your basis for claiming that the flight path shown on the so-called "FBI map" is correct? Blazer, the ball is back in your hands. Please provide some meaningful answers here. Robert99

Blevins, In view of your quote above, how about posting something that actually supports your claims about KC being Cooper. Specifically, I think it would be nice if your 8 year old witness to KC supposedly making the actual bomb used in the hijacking on the dinning room table 43+ years ago spoke up about how all that came about. It would also be nice if she explained how she acquired her knowledge of bombs and how many she actually saw both before and after she saw KC at work on one. Robert99

Jo, the quote above describes your post correctly. You have not produced a single piece of information that supports your claims about Duane Weber in your alleged 17 years of investigating his past. Didn't you and Duane get interested in the Cooper hijacking while you were living in Virginia Beach, VA and long before his death and your allegations that Duane told you he was Cooper? Robert99

Jo, Just read my posts #57230 and #57250, which were replies to posts from you, and post #57238 which was a reply to a post from Blevins. The above three posts answer your questions. Including how the money got to the point where it was found. You were NOT standing at the money find location in 2001 unless you were out over the river water itself. It has been discussed for years on this thread that erosion has destroyed the money find location. Or to put it another way, the horizontal location of the money find is now out over the water and the vertical location is an invisible point that is several feet above the river water level. The money find location is just a point in empty space at the present time. So unless you were levitating you were not actually at the money find location in 2001. Tom Kaye has done experiments that show that money will sink to the bottom of a water source after a few minutes and stay there. Cooper's impact point had to be above the level of the money find location. For the first several days after his death, Cooper and the money bag plus parachute and anything else that he had with him would probably be capable of floating if the water reached his level. But no such thing apparently occurred. Cooper's biological deterioration would probably require a handful of weeks during that winter. But when the water reached his level after the deterioration, his bones and equipment would not capable of floating. Consequently, when the water action was sufficient to move his remains, those remains would be moved underwater on the bottom and along the shore line of the river. And the water level at the time the money was deposited at the point where it was later found would be several feet higher than the money find elevation. Also, if the remains started their journey very far from the money find location, they would probably have had a tendency to move into deeper water. This suggests that the money didn't move very far along the river before it ended up at Tina Bar. Robert99

YOU NEED TO RETHINK ALL OF THAT. THE MONEY WAS JUST OUTSIDE OF THE TREE FOLIAGE. THIS WAS DISCUSSION BETWEEN FAZIO & HIMMELSBACH IN MY PRESENCE IN 2001. THE CREW WAS EAST OF US FILMING THE AREA. THE 3 OF US WHERE TOGETHER. FAZIO MENTION THE SIZE OF THE TREES..."IF IT HAD BEEN IN 2001 THE MONEY FIND WOULD HAVE BEEN UNDER THE FOLIAGE OF THE TREES...BUT NOT IN 1979 OR IN 1980". THE QUOTE IS NOT HIS EXACT WORDING BUT THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WAS SAID. I WAS STANDING WHERE THE MONEY WAS FOUND. I REMEMBERED ALL OF THIS & ONLY FAZIO & HIMMELSBACH & I WERE PRESENT AT THAT MOMENT. WE HAD LINGERED BEHIND THE CREW WHILE THEY MOVED FORWARD TO THE EAST WITH THEIR EQUIPMENT. Jo, You continue to operate in the knee-jerk mode. If you would even read the quote which you gave, you would realize that I said that pictures of the agents indicated that they were some distance from the river water and several feet above that water. And if you had bothered to look at those pictures, which have been publicly available for at least 30 years now in such books as Tosaw's and Himmelsbach's, you would have seen that they were near the tree line. But for the record, Duane Weber did not have anything to do with the Cooper hijacking, he did not plant any money at Tina Bar, and your claims to the contrary are baloney. Do we understand each other? Robert99

Excellent synopsis, Robert Nine-Nine. Thank you. But what do you make of the reports of outlandish weather? Fuzzy memories due to age? The lure of Cooper fame? The Vortex is at work again? By the way: Can anyone tell me how and why Bohan and his Continental flight was allowed to creep up five minutes behind 305 AND its complement of trailing F-106, a T-33, and Himmelsbach's Chinook while plenty o' other craft were sweating it out in holding patterns or parked on some stranger's tarmac? To me that seems dangerous. Was Bohan a cowboy or Continental stupid? I spoke with his wife a while back. Maybe it's time for a follow-up phone call. Bruce, we need a good investigative reporter to check into those stories. Are you up to it? As I remember the story about Bohan, he took off from Seattle four minutes after the hijacked airliner. If this is true and Bohan was on V-23, then he passed NWA 305 long before it got to the Portland area. However, in all probability, Bohan was on V-23E (now known as V-495) which ran straight from the Seattle to the Portland (now Battleground) VORTACS. He would not have been anywhere near the hijacked airliner and the other aircraft involved in chasing it. Incidentally, Himmelsbach was in a Huey helicopter and not a Chinook. If you speak to Bohan's wife again, please ask her to get his flight log books out and find the entry for the Seattle to Portland flight. Then ask her for the takeoff and landing times, the route of the flight, and any other information that is contained in that logbook for that day. Robert99

Bruce, About the first thing I did when I got interested in the Cooper hijacking and joined this thread in early 2009 was to do an analysis of the Portland area weather. At the time I did the analysis I did not have access to all of the weather information that Ckret had placed online, and which I didn't know about then. Specifically, I did not have access to the printed forecasts that he provided. I used the actual reported weather from various ground stations, including that in the transcripts while the airliner was on the ground in Seattle, and the conditions reported by the NWA crew while in flight. Keep in mind that the overcast at 5000 feet was the highest reported cloud layer in that weather information. The airliner flew at 10,000 feet while in Washington and Oregon. Consequently, there is nothing in the weather information to indicate that the airliner even flew in clouds during the cruise phase of flight. Before takeoff from Seattle, the airliner was advised that they might encounter light icing conditions in Southern Oregon, and I think they did in fact do so. Basically, the weather in the immediate area of Portland was colder than standard, the atmospheric pressure was greater than standard, and the humidity was very high. The end result of all of this was that the "air density" was greater than standard which improved the airliner's performance at 10,000 feet (it though it was flying at a slightly lower altitude). There is evidence in the weather information that a front had passed Seattle several hours before the airliner took off for Reno. The atmospheric pressure at Seattle at the time of the takeoff was standard sea level or slightly higher. And the pressure increased at ever station the airliner passed as it flew through Washington and Oregon. This higher than standard, and increasing, atmospheric pressure is a major indicator of a stable air mass. Additionally, the cold temperatures also increased the stability of the air mass. Microbursts are completely out of the question for that evening in the Portland area. Microclimates don't mean anything here. You and your next-door neighbor may have different microclimates. And I don't think the PNW weather that I have seen over the past 60+ years is really that weird. On the matter of the famous Captain Bohan. I don't know where the good Captain was on the evening of the hijacking, but the weather he is claimed to have reported was nowhere in the Portland area. Overall, the weather encountered by the airliner on its flight from Seattle to Reno was nothing out of the ordinary. The Boeing 727, with three rated pilots in the cockpit, should not have had any problems with the weather. Essentially, it should have been just another night at the office. Finally, no more weather information from the evening of the hijacking is going to come home. It is all here right now. Robert99

Everyone knows when the money was found. What flood? Do you have some data that the Columbia reached flood stage at that time? If so, the data below doesn't show it for that year. Sixteen feet or below for the Columbia usually doesn't cause a problem. [Additional Blevins provided information on Columbia River flooding has been deleted as not relevant to the Cooper hijacking.] Blevins, If you had been paying attention to the previous five or six years of posts on this thread you would know that the nominal water level of the Columbia River at Tina Bar is about 5 to 7 feet above sea level with a tidal effect of less than 2 feet. And you should also know that the daily high and low water levels on the Columbia River at the US Army Corps of Engineers Vancouver gage are available online for the period from November 1, 1974 through the money find date in February 1980. On February 12, 1980, which was the first day that the FBI agents were at Tina Bar, the Vancouver gage had a maximum of 4.5 feet above and a minimum of 2.6 feet above sea level. Tina Bar is about 10 miles downstream from that gage and the water level there will be about 0.5 foot lower than at the gage. Thus, the water level at Tina Bar on February 12, 1980 was between 4.0 and 2.1 feet above sea level. Pictures taken of the FBI agents digging at Tina Bar show that they were well away from the water line and about 5 feet, at least, vertically above the water level. This means that the money was found at an elevation that was probably at least 9 feet above sea level. Also, the money was probably slightly underwater when it arrived at that location. So water levels of 10 feet or higher at Tina Bar are the ones of interest. All indications point to Cooper being a no-pull who impacted on reasonably dry land just upstream of Tina Bar. This includes the possibility that he impacted on Caterpillar Island. The vegetation on Caterpillar Island and the adjacent shore lines on the east side of the river (which runs north and south at Tina Bar) includes extremely heavy areas of briars. Meyer Louie, an individual you love to disparage, can back me up on that. Water action is the only believable mechanism for the money to arrive at Tina Bar. And I believe Georger, another individual you love to disparage, supports the water mechanism. The water level has to reach the money and have sufficient current forces to free it from any constraints before it can move the money downstream. Consequently, this water level must be about 10 feet above sea level plus whatever additional height that is required to reach the money bag and whatever is left of Cooper and the equipment he had with him. At the present time, there is nothing that can be added to the above. Robert99

Jo, I was referring to an earlier post on this DZ thread. If you had bothered to read it, you quite possibility would have noticed that the poster suggested that the Tina Bar money had been planted in late 1979. And you have repeatedly made that same claim yourself including that it was Duane who planted it in 1979. So your Cooper book is going to be a love story. When will it be coming out? Robert99

Robert99 - you were NOT on that beach in 1979 / 1980. I have noted you guys have never ACKNOWLEGED the big flood in 1977/1978. NOT one time. The money was deposited AFTER that flood. Nor have you mentioned the other flooding between 1971 and 1979. A lot of the erosion has happened over the yrs. but you would claim it happened in a few short months...and, you proclaim RESEARCHERS are on that other site. Those researchers are individuals like yourself with opinions - NONE of them including the geologist lived in the area & or worked in the are & knew the waters sources & how they have changed over the last 100 yrs. You seemingly forget that WA has a unique geographic phenomena not addressed by these so called researchers. DUH! Only one of them is actually capable or has the knowledge. His presence & experience with the State of WA is limited. His participation is that place is non-existent - has he ever made one post to that site? His speciality was animals & deserts not rivers. Jo, The above is just more of your customary nonsense. If you had bothered to read a few messages prior to the one included above, you would understand that the poster I replied to suggested that the money was planted at Tina Bar in 1979 before being found in 1980. You have made similar claims about Duane planting the money in 1979. Flooding of the Columbia River is an annual event. The water sources a century ago are not relevant. It is what they were in late 1971 through the money find date in 1980 that matters. Your claim that certain researchers don't know anything about the Columbia River is laughable. You claim to have spent a few days in Washington State in 1979 and seem to feel that makes you an expert. Assuming that you even visited Washington State in 1979, where did your information on the Columbia River come from? A long, long time ago, I lived in Washington State and on a river that flowed into the Columbia River about 3 or 4 miles away. So frankly, I feel that I have quite a bit more knowledge of and experience with the Columbia and other Washington State rivers than even the all-knowing Jo Weber. You claim that "WA has a unique geographic phenomena" that is not addressed by researchers who don't support your claims. Do you actually know what you are talking about? If not, just guess. What is this unique "phenomena"? Robert99

Tina was supposed to get the money with in a few days, or weeks of the plant, prior to winter for sure. I think the field of money thing is debatable. They were for sure combing the area and found various other stuff, and bagging it as evidence.. but I've not seen any statements saying there was more than the 3 bundles and small chard's in the immediate area of the bundles. There was one picture in this thread somewhere that showed all these trenches and one perhaps 8x8' area really dug up. If what you say happened, for sure they're be more than 3 in tact bundles found. 3 nearly intact bundles and the rest 98% disintegrated into bits doesn't make sense either. It's pure conjecture for sure, all the little nuances are debatable. I'd like to see statements from the FBI where they said they found money everywhere along the shore or in that area. On the contrary, there is no guarantee at all that additional money bundles would be found intact. You should visit Tina Bar and take a look at the enormous erosion problem that exists there. It is probably only pure luck that any money, intact bundles or fragments, was found there. The information from the first FBI agents on the scene at Tina Bar is not conjecture. Some of them have described what they found to another Cooper researcher. The researcher who talked to them can be found on Shutter's Cooper site. It might be informative for you to contact him. Robert99