BruceSmith

Greetings Orange1 You ask a profound question and back it up with compelling facts. So, why do people confess to crimes they didn’t commit? Darn good question, and one that I have some interest in writing about - remember – I get paid by the column inch generally, and not the topic, per se. But staying with DB Cooper, why did Barb, Duane, William Gossett, and maybe McCoy in a kinda roundabout way, confess to being DB Cooper? First off, let’s deal with Barb: She was outted by Ron Forman during one of her Cooper tactical sessions on how DB could have done it and survived. Ron said, “Yeah, I know Barb, you’re DB Cooper,” and laughed. A few minutes and one masculine-toned admonishment later, he wasn’t laughing anymore. So, the fact of Barb being prompted to confess gives some weight to the confession itself. This is not a straight forward, “I wanna be somebody,” kind of boasting for friends to gain status. As for the rest, for me, the confessions don’t actually prove who DB Cooper is, rather, it puts these individuals on the radar screen of closer examination, and in that we see the confessors sharing many striking similarities: high-risk careers in the military, loner qualities, lots of secrets, weird sex lives, living with dramatic, abrupt changes in their lives. Generally, I see a troubled, but physically robust life, suggesting that psychologically and behaviorally they all could have done it. And from that, there is much more investigation to be done following those leads. From that point of view, the confessions are only a red flag that point to something else. However, as for the confession itself, since the confessions don’t prove they did it since how could they all be DB Cooper, do they say something else about them? Could the confessions be a signal, a code, a feeble admission that they were involved somehow but they really don’t know how, and they can’t really tell it coherently to anyone? Remember, they may not have fully understood what had happened to them if they were in MKULTRA, so confessing to being DB Cooper may have been their way of trying to start the conversation with a loved one about how crazy and mixed up their lives had actually been once upon a time. For them, all of life, or the DB Cooper part of their lives, could be like trying to understand a lucid dream. Trying to tell someone about it is very difficult. It’s hard to remember the details when you’re telling it, and when you’re finished it only makes sense to the teller, and that’s if he’s lucky to have a somewhat coherent dream. Lastly, if any of this is tied to MKULTRA or any kind of govt op, the Cooper crew would probably have a very strong fear about telling the truth of it, to whatever degree they understood it. They probably had a fear of betraying the mission, or betraying their oath to secrecy. They may have been afraid of being killed for talking about what they knew and did. Perhaps a death-bed was the only safe time to talk, so the only time to confess. That’s a lot of pressure- to tell a truth that they only partially understand or remember, and running the risk of being killed over it, and possibly having their loved ones think they were crazier in actuality than their families had ever imagined. This all could have been going on. On the other hand, the other forces that compel people to falsely confess may have been at work, such as longing for meaning, wanting to be a hero, wanting to be special. Those can be powerfully desperate needs, Orange1, as your statistics suggest so clearly.

QuoteThere may be nothing more than human psychology that ties it all together. I can see why people might want others to think they were Cooper. After all, he was a folk hero of sorts, a Robin Hood, a guy who outsmarted the FBI and who showed great cunning and courage. If you had drifted through life without accomplishing anything substantial (as Clark Kent) you might want your loved ones to think that that you were really Superman. Quote Yup, that sure is possible. Duane's utterance has sent Jo on a 13-year tear, so maybe he sensed a good response even if post-mortem. But frankly, I think it's a stretch. But I do see the potential. However, looking more closely, particularly at Barb Dayton, I don't see the pay-offs with others. Barb didn't demonstrate a need to brag or flash her skills in any other area of her life. She had her stories, told them, and whatever people thought or did with them, she seemed disconnected from their reactions. In fact, her confession put her in jeopardy with the Cessna crew, and fortunately for her, they clammed up. As for McCoy and his Mystery Tour to Vegas, he apparently didn't tell anyone about that caper, so he didn't need to brag either. Gossett? Well, I guess we'll have to wait for Galen, on that. But the sons haven't shed any light on any possible psychological pay-off for their dad.

You're right, 377, about the absurdity of using a commercial flight as a training exercise. It makes no sense from a bureaucractic, political, or even operational point of view. And even from a govt that has done plenty of wacky stuff, as you have pointed out. But still, I come back to the loose ends - why the death-bed confessions, McCoy in Vegas, Duane in P'land, Gossett whereever, etc.? I'm just looking for an over-arching concept, a hypothesis, that ties them together.

All I've got is Ron Forman's word, 377, saying he jumped in tandem with Barb. Is there any reason to doubt Ron? Do you think more conclusive proof is necessary? As for Occam's edge dulling, remember what we are cutting here: one-of-a-kind intelligence operatives. Guys who do big jobs and don't come back. Guys who leave no loose ends, no trace of their existence - no family or curious friends wondering what happened, etc. How do you train an operative like that? Send him to Fort Benning???? As for Occam, what does he think the CIA was doing when they spent 6% of their budget on mind control? One thing we do know, however, they were tortuting and killing innocent people at the Allen Insitute. So, how far will Occam's razor cut through this sordid mess? Will it find the heart of the matter?

Greetings Three-Seven-Seven, Let's be careful not to lose sight of what we are looking at, which is what Barb Dayton can tell us about DB Cooper. As for the specifics of your question, asking jumpers to remember Barb Dayton is a bit off-target. First, Barb was "Bobby" when she was supposedly learning to fly and jump in the 1960s in California, which was pre-operation, 1969. By 1971, Barb was telling her psychiatrist that she had given up skydiving because "it was boring." Further, it is crucial to remember that Bobby/Barb was a virtual loner, so she probably made a point of not being remembered by other jumpers. In addition, it is unlikely she had a lot of jumps under her belt, and probably very little instruction, too. From her point of view, it didn't require much - just a simple, but not commonplace, gut maneuver to step out of a plane; then, pull a cord, and tuck and roll on the ground. Barb/Bobby probably didn't think it was much of a big deal. As for her actual expertise, Barb took Ron Forman on a tandem jump in the late 1970s. They both made it successfully, so certainly in her eyes she was an accomplished skydiver. That said, it would be wonderful to talk with someone who jumped with Barb/Bobby and give us more detail about her life. Above all else, though, we have to picture that guy on the aft stairs of Flight 305, Nov. 24, 1971 at about 8:15 pm. Can any of what Barb did in her life tell us anything about what was going on inside DB Cooper as he committed his crime, what kind of guy he was, and possibly his identity? And in another breath, does anything in Barb Dayton's life reveal anything about all the loose ends of the Cooper case? i.e.: death-bed confessions, McCoy's mysterious trips to Las Vegas, John C Collins/Duane Weber's night at the Portland Rode-Away Inn, botched evidence retrieval in Reno, red flags flying o'er the FBI, and 37 friggin' years....

If Barb railed about that, or, if someone told you she railed about that, they are full of crap. A college education is not a requirement for a Commercial Pilot’s Certificate. A college education is not a requirement for an Airline Transport Pilot’s (ATP) Certificate. Some airlines like to hire pilots with BS degrees in Aeronautical Science, but that’s their preference, not an FAA requirement. Barb, most likely (my opinion AFTER reading the Foreman’s pathetic excuse for a book), just didn’t have “The Right Stuff” and the “stick-to-it-ness” (discipline) to obtain the certification. Thanks, for the clarification on credentials necessary to become a commercial pilot, Sluggo. I agree with you, Barb Dayton probably didn't have the stick-to-it-ness sufficient to complete her commercial pilot credentials, or a college degree for that matter. She seems to have been implusive, but very savvy, so within a narrow spectrum she was very capable. That mastery may have colored her perception of herself. I'd bet she usually thought she was smarter than everyone else. As for the Formans' book, The Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Causes, you are certainly correct that it is an uneven piece of work. However, the recently published second edition is much better - more informatoinm, more concise, better focus, and has lots of helpful pictures and diagrams. Further, as limited as the Formans' book may be in the larger literary sense, it is certainly a well-documented piece, and as such is an important contribution to the DB Cooper investigation. Regardless whether Barb Dayton was DB Cooper, or was part of a "Cooper Team," this book, by revealing how Barb thought and acted shows us how DB Cooper may have thought and acted. The work gives us an important glimpse into DB Cooper's makeup, albeit, not a perfectly clear one.

To all: I have been asked by some to explain my views on MKULTRA in more detail. In response, I thought I'd make a general post. Here we go: The essential question is: Was DB Cooper part of a training program to develop sleeper agents to terminate high value targets in missions that carried extremely high risks? I.E.: assassinations of Brezhnev, Mao or Castro? Was the CIA training agents to run ops that were so dangerous - that had so little probability of survival - that they had to first train them not to care about living, yet still function at a very high level? That scenario calls for MKULTRA. How else do you "turn off" the desire to live? You can't just deaden his brain so that he doesn't feel or care - he still has to function at a very high level. You need a precise, "surgical" psychological impairment, and one that you can control. Further, it would be best for all concerned, especially the agency, if these agents could be kept on ice until needed. Short of suspended animation, the best place to keep these guys would be in jail. Next best, a military psychiatric hospital, and third, well-kept and well-oiled in a rugged, special-ops military unit. Also, a cave in the Yukon or the William O Douglas Wilderness. Or minded by a drunk grandpappy in the Ozarks, perhaps. Barb Dayton is a superb example of a person who functioned at a very high level operationally, but whose desire to live, to feel, to love, was deadened. She was a perfect candidate for this team, even if she wasn't DB Cooper, specifically. Dayton gives us a marvelous view into this kind of persona, one that I think DB Cooper shared many key components. To whit: 1. DB Cooper came from nowhere and returned to nowhere. (Could that "nowhere" be a form of total social isolation, a prison cell, a cave, a military base, a hospital?) (Group isolation, as in hillbillies, i.e.: "Deliverance-type" of group isolation?) 2. Fearless. High sensual tolerance thresholds, i.e.: cold, wet, discomfort - jumped with loafers and a thin raincoat. People with severe mental illness often have remarkable tolerances to heat, cold and physical pain, ie: walking naked in the snow and, not only not feeling the pain of cold, but the body continues to thrive- i.e.: no frostbite, burns, etc. Plus, immune to fears of death. 3. Remarkable calmness. "I think you'd better look at that note, Ma'am." etc. It was as if his anxiety circuits were switched-off. 4. Unusual behavior: childlike response to seeing the money. 5. Barb had remarkable confidence in herself and her ability to learn complex tasks instantly by watching or deducing. She detested books and academic learning. She learned everything in her life by doing. She called books "blocks of wood." I imagine that she could have fearlessly jumped out of a 727 after only a few prior jumps, and I think she basically lived with the mantra, "seen one parachute, seen 'em all." I don't think Barb would have cared a lick whether she jumped with a Para Commander or a NB 8, and I think she was numbed to the severe jolt when her chute opened. I think some of the posts on the DZ might make a crucial error by assuming that DB Cooper was like them- that he felt what they feel, and thought like they do. I think that is incoreect. The physiology and psyche of people with personality disorders is remarkable different than "normal" people. 6. Confidence. DB knew his plan was good. He believed in his plan, and had confidence in his ability to execute it. DB Cooper knew he was smart, and I infer that he had lots of prior experiences figuring out complications at a moment's notice. I think DB Cooper and Barb both "flew by the seats of their pants" throughout their lives in all areas. Barb Dayton was the epitome of self-confidence, yet, she had an inner rage because she didn't fit in- i.e.: couldn’t get a commercial license to fly because she hadn't gotten a college degree. "What does that have to do with flying," she would rail to her friends. I greatly fear DB Cooper is dead. Not because he died in the jump, but rather, he was executed because he was deemed too dangerous to be kept alive. In effect, DB Cooper was a guinea pig, a lab rat that was expendable. I hope not, because I want to meet him and get to know him, but I find it implausible that his possible puppet masters would allow him to live. I truly, truly hope I am wrong in this. I sense that the people I call the Cooper crew; Christenson, Gossett, McCoy, Dayton, and Weber were the "B" team. The back-ups, or possibily the actual "A" team because they lived while the original team, DB himself and who know who else, died (I speculate a bunch of the other 20 hijackers who did a DB in the 8 months following November 24, 1971 might also be part of the A team). Maybe this "B," but really "Prime" team, was the operational team. They were saved until they were needed, yet, never called as it turned out. This ties in with JM Wave and the massive CIA op to overthrow Castro. Ironically, I have had a personal encounter here in Graham with what I consider a sleeper agent. His name is Daniel T. Tavares and he was the hit man on a double homicide that negatively impacted the Mitt Romney prez bid. Care to read about it? I can send you a synopsis.

Greetings Cabbage, Your questions made me think of what the current findings and speculations are concerning the money found at Tena's Bar. Here's what I've got. Anyone else out there, please add if I've missed anything. Statement of Findings: The Money at Tena’s Bar 1. $5,800 found by Brian Ingram on February 10, 1980, on Tena’s (Tina’s) Bar. Site is on the Washington side of the Columbia, upstream from the Lewis River, downstream from the Washougal and Willamette Rivers, and also downstream from the I-5 Bridge, Portland airport and metro area. (See Himmelsbach, Worcester, NORJAK: The Investigation of DB Cooper, Rhodes and Calame, DB Cooper The Real McCoy, Tosaw, DB Cooper- Dead or Alive? 2. Three, approximately equal stacks of twenties. Most reports say they were found one on top of the other under a couple inches of sand. Reports vary though; with some reports claiming the third stack was deeper than the above two stacks by a few more inches. Most reports say the top of the three stacks was within an inch or two of the surface, and found by Brian as he swept his hand across the surface to level it for a campfire/hot dog roast. 3. An undisclosed number of shards of twenties were found in the vicinity, some pieces as deep as three feet down, and others as far as 100 feet away from the main stack of three. Some bits were discovered at the very upper reach of flood tides, perhaps 50-100 feet inland (Jerry Thomas’ verbal report to BA Smith) 4. Soil analysis reveals that the bills were deposited above dredge spoils deposited in 1974. 5. Current understanding of the integrity of the bundles and rubber bands upon discovery is that the bands were intact until handled by Brian Ingram, and then they broke apart. The manufacturer of the rubber bands is currently claiming that they could only remain intact in the wild for three-four months. Also, many of the upper layers of bills were decomposed around the edges, but many bills underneath were largely intact. 6. The FBI claims they have sent samples of the bills to various scientific labs for analysis, including a paleontologist in Arizona to study soil residues, (October 2008), inorganic chemical residues (Citizen Sleuth Committee headed by Tom Kaye, Burke Museum, UW Seattle, March, 2009), and according to Jerry Thomas in a phone call to BA Smith, a biological assay for diatoms in the winter of 2009 with an undisclosed party. 7. The predominant theory of how the money got to Tena’s Bar comes from the FBI who speculates that the money landed in the Washougal River watershed the night of the hijacking and flowed down to Tena’s Bar in the intervening years, appearing in Feb. 1980. 8. Another variation is put forth by Richard Tosaw, who believes DB Cooper and his money landed in the Columbia River, somewhere upstream from Tena’s Bar. 9. Barb Dayton, in her confession to Ron and Pat Forman, said she buried the money at Tena’s Bar sometime in late 1979, possibly summer, transferring it from its original hiding place in an irrigation cistern in a hazelnut grove in Woodburn, Oregon. 10. Bruce A. Smith has speculated that the money may have been deposited at Tena’s Bar at multiple times by multiple people as part of an organized process to plant subconscious memories of participating in the Cooper skyjacking during MKULTRA mind-control exercises. 11. Jo Weber says that her husband Duane Weber threw a paper sack into the Columbia River from the I-5 motel area near Portland during their “Incredible Journey” trip to the Pacific Northwest in the summer 1979. Some have wondered if Cooper money was in it, and possibly washed up on the opposite shore.

*** Only about 100 times even when they are testifying under oath. So Bruce. What lie did a cop tell you and why did it affect your outlook so profoundly and permanently? Quote The big one that sticks in my craw is the Mauck double homicide in Graham, WA, Nov.17, 2007. I filed five pieces on the case before I was pulled off the story by my editors in response to police pressure. If you'd like, I'll send you a synopsis.

QuoteHope no-one minds this train of thought. But given the conspiratists out there I do think these provide useful context

I still don't get the rationale for any "test". Bruce, you mention the 727 airdrops... all that stuff had already been done by the time of the hijacking, so the hijacking (or purported hijacking) couldn't have been a dry run for any of that. Even with all your theories about the CIA, I still don't see it satisfactorily explained how this fits in, other than "they do nefarious secret stuff so why not this too"? No-one has satisfactorily explained the rationale of this yet, as far as I'm concerned. If it was a simple test to see how the airline etc responded, why choose that airline and that flight? What was it meant to prove? Who exactly was in on it and who wasn't? Why would the CIA be involved in something that would clearly be an FBI issue with no national security concerns? etc etc etc etc...?????? Quote Orange1, here's my musings on the "test theory." Could Flight 305 have been a training mission to prepare operatives for an assassination or other high-risk job? For instance: skyjacking a plane over Cuba on the way to kill Castro? Or Brezhnev and Moscow? Or Mao and Beijing? Easy access, maybe? On the surface that would seem ludicrous. Why not just fly in on a regularly scheduled Aeroflot flight? But, is there something crucial to be learned from skyjacking a plane? Did the skyjacking prepare DB Cooper for something else? Such as: did it test his courage or fearlessness, or ability to function clearly under extreme conditions? -All to the end that those qualities would serve him well in another job, ie: assassination? Or did it serve to prove his fitness to his minders? Or was it a lab experiment to see how far a Manchurian Candidate would go? Did it show how well a brain-washed operative could function? By the way, I love Brit TV espionage stuff. I utterly savoured The Sandbaggers.

If that can be considered a profile for Cooper - it is down the line with Weber, but I am sure the FBI and the forum would say NAY, but they didn't know him.. Well-planned crime and execution, with many original elements This is how he sold insurance -plan and execute - improvise if need be. Fearless or unconcerned with high risk. A man had insulted me at a bar in CO, when I tried to get thru to the restroom - all I said was excuse me. Duane asked me why I didn't go to the bathroom - and I told him the man wouldn't let me pass and what he said. Duane got up and went outside to the car and came back with a budge in his leather jacket. Duane had spoke to the musician when he came back into the bar - he was a friend of ours (why we went there). Suddenly he started playing a song Duane requested (for the love of me I can't remember the title right now). It was about dying in a Gun fight in a bar. Duane then sat back down at the bar with me and glared across a long room at this man. Only brief moments later this young man comes up to us and says "Mame, I apologize - I had too much to drink and Sir I am sorry I insulted your wife - I don't want any trouble and I am going home." Duane put his his hand on the young man's shoulder and said "Son, I think that would be a GOOD IDEA" very firmly. After the man left - Duane pulled out this huge screwdriver he had retrieve from the car. The bar was roaring!. The musician and his wife this was their last night at this bar in I believe Greely) as they were leaving to travel the country in their motor home. Around Christmas we recieved a pakage with the return address of "AnyWhere, USA). When we opened it - inside was a screw driver (not as large) dipped in gold paint. On the handle was their names " Rick and Elaine". I still have that screw driver. Quiet, gentlemanly demeanor; but explosive outburst reported with re-fueling snafu. I guess that is the one that gave me goose bumps. He seldom responded in anger, but when he did his point was well taken. Child-like response to seeing the money. I have posted a picture of one of these child like gleeful moments. Savvy - resisted Tina’s probes. I wrote a story about that and then deleted it, because it would be an invasion and private issue regarding someone besides myself or Duane. Let's just say he could take a difficult situation and stage it in a manner that was firm and to the point. He resisted Tina's probes. Just as he resisted mine over the yrs - make a simple generic reply and change the subject...he was GOOD at that. WHY I never knew anything about his past he didn't want me to know. I agree, Jo. Based on your discription of Duane, and from what I've read, I see a high degree of correlation between your husband and CB Cooper. And with other guys, too, such as Gossett, Christiansen, McCoy, et. al. I'd like to know more about Duane- what kind of guy he was. Please tell us more. Or send PMs if you think this thread is tired of Weber stories. From what you've shared, Duane sounds quixotic: warm and friendly at times, but deadly serious, even menacing, at others. Open and loving at times, but then profoundly secretive and closed-off.

Serious question: are you Archie? No need to be shy. Quote Nope, I'm not Archie; I'm just your Cousin Brucie. Shout Out to Archie: I'd like to know more about your point of view, Archie. Why not post your hypothesis here?

QuoteSomething strange has happened. Two weeks ago a lurker at this Forum began communicating with me. Let's call him/her Archie (he claims to be a bonafide Archaeologist but on inspection he runs a religious based counseling? operation and that is all I know). Archie thinks 'we' are all wasting our time. Archie says 'you (meaning we) have accomplished nothing that "was not already known in newspapers" '. And, 'There never will be anything new discovered because, he never left the plane'. Archie is expressing a point of view we have never addressed, quite frankly. I expressed the idea here months ago but only as a theoretical option. That is the view that: "Cooper never left the plane. There never was a real hijacking. The whole thing was a systems test, in response to an increased frequency of hijackings one of which had occurred just a week before the supposed Cooper hijacking of #305". And anyone who thinks otherwise is only revealing deep personal issues (in addition to being 'short between the ears'). Archie is not sure who-all was in on this test, but he is convinced it was a test, and he says the sum total of all evidence suggests it was a test, due mainly to the palpable lack of any evidence after the fact, and the fact no one was caught - because there was nobody to catch! QuoteDZ, response to “Archie;” flight 305 was a test. Georger, I find “Archie’s” hypothesis resonates with me. I’ve been wondering, and I’ve posted my speculations, on how and why Flight 305 might have been a test or a simulation. Do I have proof? Nope. But, I keep pecking away at the fringes of the CIA, FBI and MKULTRA; but I’ve got nothing concrete so far regarding any connection to Cooper. Nevertheless, what I do have is my personal inquisitiveness and imagination. I’ve taken those capacities, added the facts as I know them, and tried to form a comprehensive, coherent narrative as to what happened and why. Bottom Line: Can we elucidate any motivations, or establish any possible trace of identity by asking: What kind of guy was DB Cooper? Can we find any link to a controlled test or simulation from DB Cooper’s personality and behavior? Clues: Came from nowhere and returned to nowhere, seemingly Well-planned crime and execution, with many original elements. Fearless or unconcerned with high risk – i.e.: rainy jump at night in November with an unforgiving NB-8, wearing loafers and a thin raincoat. Qualities of desperation Quiet, gentlemanly demeanor; but explosive outburst reported with re-fueling snafu. Child-like response to seeing the money. Willing to blow people up. Performing on a big stage: narcissistic? Savvy - resisted Tina’s probes Add to this the twenty other DB Cooper style hijackings in the next 8 months. Add again, the CIA’s usage of 727s to jump agents and push cargo throughout SE Asia. Add further, the CIA’s mind control program running concurrently and spending 6% of the agency’s budget, including the outright torture of American and Canadian citizens under the auspice of mental health treatment and research.

Orange1. I think I call DB Cooper "Danny", and "Danny Boy," for a couple of reasons: 1. To me, it makes him more personal, and brings him closer to the conversation, ie: "Hey, Danny, have a seat and sit down. We were just talking about you....for the past 394 pages of this thread!" 2. I feel an increasing familiarity with him after six months of research. Some days, I don't eat because I'm so excited by the search. Why not give the object of my energies a nickname. In some ways, he's become a friend. 3. I'm teasing him, and stirring the pot. He introduced the moniker Dan Cooper, ala DB Cooper, to the world. Now, I'm making light of it. If Dan Cooper is reading this post, maybe it'll tickle his funny bone and he'll email me. 4. Heck, if folks here can call me Cousin Brucie, I want to get in the swing of things and crack a few jokes, too! Just out of curiosity, O-1, why do you ask?

I was wondering what people's take is on the front page spread of McClatchy newspapers here in the Pacific Northwest today. The Tacoma News Tribune and The Olympian (Olympia, WA) both ran Les Blumentahl's feature story on the Citizen Sleuth Team that has made recent history. Blumenthal is based in the DC area. The piece covers the main points expressed in many of the TV news reports of a month ago, but only featured Tom Kaye and Carol Abrazinskas. Larry Carr played a minor role in the storyline. No mention of testing for metal residues. or biological markers, ie: insects, algae, on the money. The Dan Cooper comics were highlighted, and a few paragraphs discussed the electron microscope analysis on the tie pin for pollen residues. No concrete evidence was revealed.

Amazing!! WOW, that would have been my first move. Just imagine when the FBI gets to running the prints through the system and find a match. There would be some major explaining to do! Yup, SnG. That kind of thinking, clearly spelled out here, is a humongous red flag.

Yes, probably. 1. Bruce, have you ever worked in an environment where you are faced with difficult clients daily and you have to be nice? This kind of thing was probably ingrained into Tina. 2. Your mom sounds great, but do you really think she would have said all that to someone she was scared might blow them up if he got angry? Or would she have been nice to him to make sure he stayed calm enough to not do anything stupid? so, yes, 3 is indeed the most probable. by the way you mentioned something about good-looking women bringing bibles to work... is it completely beyond your comprehension that a good-looking woman might be religious simply because of the way she was brought up? i went to a convent school in elementary school and have kept in touch with a number of the girls from there. a number of them are still practising, observant Catholics and some of them are really beautiful girls (well, women now). some of them rebelled against the church in their teenage years and then went back when they grew older, which is probably par for the course. it's pretty clear to me this is simply due to family background, reinforced by schooling, and nothing to do with abuse issues. I agree with your general theme, here, Orange. Being good-looking and clutching a bible after a hijacking, in and of itself is no proof of sexual abuse. In fact, all of the characteristics of abuse-related behaviors that I've posted recently, when taken singularly, do not confirm any abuse. Rather, it is a preponderence of behaviors or their intensities that can point to abuse. It's because of the unusual nature of the DB Cooper case, Tina's withdrawal from the world - plus the bible and her appearence, and questions about the tie that I raise the possibility of abuse. What do you think about Tina? Do you think her behaviors tell us anything about the case, other than the fact that she did a tought job very well, and is, as Georger says, an American hero.

Greetings Georger, Whew, G., you sure have gotten your knickers in a twist, here. As for the affinity I see between Tina and DB Cooper, here’s my thinking: One, she describes him in favorable terms, i.e.: gentlemanly, courteous, etc, while Himmelsback saw him as a filthy-mouthed sleaze ball. What is the truth, here? Two, she was his trusted courier. Three, she was able to sit next to him for long periods of time, light cigarettes for him, and tried to make small talk, albeit, elicit information for the FBI. How many women would do that? I know if my mother was in Tina’s shoes, she would have told Danny Boy straight up: “Light your own damn cigarettes, Mr. Hijack-and-Blow-Me-Up-Gangster-Man. If you’re such a Big Shot, light ‘em yourself, and I hope you choke on them. You shouldn’t be smoking anyway - its bad for your health, and it stinks, too!” (As far as I know, my mother has never missed an opportunity to educate anyone into proper virtue and behavior.) Was Tina just being wise, and complying with a terrorist’s threat? Probably. But, at the end, as I understand from written accounts, they waved to each other when she went back to the cockpit, and Danny headed towards destiny. Im going to go at this one more time and then probably give this up - there is no record of waving that I am aware of. In fact Cooper told Tina to go forward and not look back. As she went through and was closing the curtain from the other side she paused and looked back - that is the moment when she reports later she saw Cooper tying (something .. the money bag?) around his waste with a rope. There was no waving goodbye and good luck. I see a lot of "projection" is everything above including your choice of words (negative towards Cooper). You have to remain neutral in these matters and rely on facts alone, as best you can assemble the facts. You have to start with a few basic assumptions regarding human behavior. One of those is: most people know when they are in a dangerous confrontational situation and their lives are at risk. A few basic human emotions (autonomic) come into play at the moment (hormone driven). Fear. Alert. Panic (suppressed if trained). etc etc. On the basis of those basic emotions one can begin to imput what other behaviors or communications mean. That is one place to start. (One can start at several other levels also but the basic emotional response-to-threat level is usually a reliable base from which to interpret other behaviors). Again, Tina was not Cooper's trusted courier. Tina was behaving under orders fulfilling a role. Likewise Cooper was not trusting of Tina. Cooper watched her intently. He demanded she sit close to him so he could control her if need be. He demonstrated the bomb and said 'just touching these two wires and boom' - the message was obvious (no funny stuff). You seem to read into this options which never existed for either party. Not only was there not the time, but there wasn't enough reciprocal space based on experience, in order to build a trust. Overriding everything is the fact of the bomb and nobody knows if Cooper had other weapons - he did produce a knife. There might have been an element of Tina wanting to stay close to Cooper at certain times in order to intervene, if she thought she could. She knew he was a nutcase - she watched him flip out and turn childlike when the money was delivered and he opened the bag and saw $200,000. Tina stood there and unemotionally watched. Tina being in the back was also reassurance for the flight crew trying to focus on their duties. She was their eyes and ears. The most frightening time for everyone was perhaps when Tina went forward and contact with Cooper was lost. How could they know from that point what he was going to do? That is why Rat eventually called back to ask if everything was OK. But I am sure from the moment Tina went forward, everyone wanted Cooper off the plane and gone, asap, and the transcripts show they cooperated in every way to get that goal achieved. I think Ive said more than enough. I hope some of this will help your thoughts - Indeed, it has. Thanks, CB

The more I read this 'treatise' of yours above, the more fascinated I get. You speak of the "the affinity between Tina and DB." What "affinity" would that be? The more I read this 'treatise' of yours above, the more fascinated I get. You speak of the "the affinity between Tina and DB." What "affinity" would that be? Greetings Georger, Whew, G., you sure have gotten your knickers in a twist, here. As for the affinity I see between Tina and DB Cooper, here’s my thinking: One, she describes him in favorable terms, i.e.: gentlemanly, courteous, etc, while Himmelsback saw him as a filthy-mouthed sleaze ball. What is the truth, here? Two, she was his trusted courier. Three, she was able to sit next to him for long periods of time, light cigarettes for him, and tried to make small talk, albeit, elicit information for the FBI. How many women would do that? I know if my mother was in Tina’s shoes, she would have told Danny Boy straight up: “Light your own damn cigarettes, Mr. Hijack-and-Blow-Me-Up-Gangster-Man. If you’re such a Big Shot, light ‘em yourself, and I hope you choke on them. You shouldn’t be smoking anyway - its bad for your health, and it stinks, too!” (As far as I know, my mother has never missed an opportunity to educate anyone into proper virtue and behavior.) Was Tina just being wise, and complying with a terrorist’s threat? Probably. But, at the end, as I understand from written accounts, they waved to each other when she went back to the cockpit, and Danny headed towards destiny. In general, I see several basic emotional responses a flight attendant might have had in Tina’s position. Cold, neutral compliance would be one, and which would be typical of many f.a.’s and probably viewed as acceptable behavior by NWA and Danny. Veiled hostility, which would have been problematic. Outright defiance, also probably not welcomed by others or Danny. Gentle compliance, such as Tina’s, which I think would be the most preferred by anyone aboard 305. This sustained gentility in the face of enormous tension, with its effective non-threatening behavior and tone, I consider “affinity,” particularly when you add a wave, or any other form of social salutation. So, with that said, Georger, how would you describe the relationship between Tina and DB Cooper?

You obviously are contending Tina Mucklow had an abusive father. On what do you base that contention? You knew Tina Mucklow and her family? You have factual data from some source that Tina Mucklow's father was abusive? Do you have hospital records from your prior work in psychiatry you cite, about Tina Mucklow? Did you work at a facility where Tina was being cared for and she was under your personal care or authority? What is the source of your knowledge you are speaking from ??? Please make yourselves clear. Inquiring minds want to know! Thank you Mr. or is it Dr. Bruce? Greetings Georger: Cousin Brucie will do. Do I have any facts about Tina’s mental health and life? Nope. Just reading the tea leaves here. Observations from what is known behavior of the principals. Hence, Tina is an interesting gal. When I see good-looking women bringing bibles to work, or other talisman of support, i.e.: dolls, I think of patients I have known who do the same. Hence, I make an association to Tina and wonder if her reasons are the same, i.e.: recovering from sexual abuse. Regardless, the essential question is why talk about Tina's mental health at all. I do so, with great concern for her privacy and possible fragility, but also with great interest because she's the one who described the tie at her debriefing in Reno. Yet, the Reno FBI guys have no recollection of seeing the tie, nor recovering it. To me, that's a red flag. Now, Jerry Thomas has speculated to me in a phone call that he thinks the first federal guy on 305, or one of the first, such as Red Campbell, spotted the tie and instantly realized he had a diamond of a clue. Jerry thinks that individual kept it secret even from his fellow FBI agents to make sure he had an iron-clad "prove-it" clue to any wannabe confessing to the crime. That's one possibility, and knowing how the FBI worked under Hoover, very plausible*. Another possibility is that the tie was a plant, and placed – for reasons still unclear - into the evidentiary collection – another red flag here - four days after the hijacking, as Russ Calame writes in DB Cooper-The Real McCoy. If it's a plant, then how did Tina make her tie disclosure during her de-briefing? One possibility is that a hypnotic suggestion was placed into her consciousness prior to the hijacking by the folks who planted the tie. A stretch? You bet. However, it all comes back to Danny Boy. Why did he leave his tie on 305, if in fact he did? Absentminded? Hmmm, he was pretty sharp in all other facets of the caper. Forgetting a tie left in plain sight is also a stretch to believe. Tina snatched it for a souvenir and then gave it to the Feds, or was prompted in-flight by them to get evidence? Hmmm, also possibilities. Another one is that Danny left it as a "howdy" to family and friends, ala Duane Weber and Jo's hypothesis. But then, once identified to his family, he had to leave them totally – complete abandonment – in order to preserve his freedom. Whew, tough gig. But again, Duane seems uniquely capable of walking away from his past. Such behavior would require an enormously compartmentalized mind and emotional being that again, strongly suggests personality disorder. Never call your mom? Your kid? Not a goodbye kiss for your wife? Whew. If in fact that is what Duane did, post-November 24, 1971, and here I’m drawing upon Jo’s recent postings for some detail on this possibility. We all bring what we’ve got to this party. Some of you have extensive aviation backgrounds; most have sharp minds and expressive tongues, and all are fueled by dogged intent. Me, I have a familiarity with psychiatry, and I see a ton of behavioral clues that call for examination. Yet, with all this, what I most desire, and most hope to gain from this forum, is a better understanding of how the FBI functioned, and is functioning, in this case. Who called the shots? How were decisions made? What is the nitty–gritty of the FBI’s investigation of DB Cooper? In that pursuit, the utter silence of Ralph, Larry and others – not to tell me what they think of Barb Dayton or Tina’s mental health - but to remain silent on what they did, are doing, and why, raises an enormous red flag. As my mother would say, their silence speaks volumes. *Russ Calame, in his book DB Cooper, The Real McCoy, describes the Bureau as one where an agent could make an extra 200-300 bucks a month – direct from Hoover and in cash - by doing snazzy sleuthing, like picking up a tie on 305. This suggests two things – one, Hoover was intimately involved in the investigative work his agents were doing and begs the question of what his involvement was in the DBC case, and two, he bred a culture where FBI agents didn’t trust each other as robustly as one would think, or hope for, and how did that shape the Bureau’s investigation of DB Cooper? I.E.: did Campbell pick up a couple hundred extra for snatching the tie, but ultimately sabotaged the case?

Bruce, When I tried to Google Cathy O'Brien and MK Ultra I was lead to the following website that makes us DBC lunatics look quite sane by comparison: http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:izgLsC3S9jIJ:www.theblackvault.com/ftopic-61121-0.html+Cathy+O%27Brien,+who+claims+she+was+intentionally+abused+as+a+kid+to+prepare+her+for+MK+ULTRA+and+CIA+work.&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Every time I read about some govt conspiracy plot theory that involves something like sexually abusing kids to prepare them for CIA experiments that will take place when they reach adulthood, my credibility gets strained to the snapping point. Do you believe claims such as the ones made by O'Brien? 377 Greetings Three-Seven-Seven, Do I believe Cathy O’Brien was sexually abused in the MKULTRA program for the CIA? Yes and no. Here’s my thinking: I first encountered Cathy in 1999, when I heard her and her rescuer, Mark Somebody, speak about her experiences. At that time, I was certain she was correct in describing herself as a victim of childhood sexual abuse, but I was skeptical that it was at the hands of a governmental operation. She and Mark described her recall of the abuse as being a result of several therapies, including hypnosis, and even a lot of old-fashioned TLC, if I remember correctly. Such recollections, “retrieval memories” can be very unreliable, though. The patient believes absolutely that the memories are real, but the facts just don’t support the claims. At the time, I believed such was the case with Cathy O’Brien. However, as the research continues and I learn more about Cathy, MKULTRA; Gitmo and Abu Graib; the Shock Doctrine, the Chicago Boys and the corporatocracy; plus experience first-hand lies, deception and spin from my local law enforcement, I have begun to add a few more grains of sand on the side of the scale that reads, “Truth” The one element of doubt that persists is that in my 16 years in psychiatry not once has a patient come up to me and say, “Yo, Bruce, I just gotta tell ya- I was a sex slave for the CIA.” One would think that if the government was running a large scale sex operation somewhere one of the kids would make a run for it and end up in my arena trying to make sense of their trauma. However, with that said, many of the MKULTRA experiments were conducted for years in secrecy at the Allen Institute, a well-established psychiatric facility in Montreal, and nobody spilled the beans. How did that happen?! Further, sexual abuse of children is widespread. The general rule of thumb is that one-third of all American women will be raped or physically abused sometime in their lifetime. Boys have a one-in-eight chance of being molested or physically assaulted. That’s a lot of people. In addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering. Some of the indicators can be: flat affect or incongruous emotional expression, eating disorders, chemical addictions, unsatisfactory relationships with men, excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making, involvement in the sex industry, blatant use of sex or seduction to obtain power or influence, rampant anxieties, and extreme religiosity. Another key is looking at the men around them, particularly dads and husbands: controlling, angry, bullying, and aggressive. Hence, I strongly suspect that Tina was abused as a kid. I strongly doubt that she was abused in any way by DB Cooper. Also, I suspect that Danny Boy was sexually abused, probably as a kid and possibly throughout his life. That would explain in part how he came to be a loner, appeared from nowhere, boarded 305 and threatened to blow everyone up, then jumped into a November night’s rainy sky and returned to nowhere. The question I have is: Did he have any organized assistance along the way? The best we can say at the moment is “Maybe yes, maybe no.” But if he did, then it serves as a link – a possible explanation - as to why we have compelling death-bed confessions, credible ancillary incidents like McCoy’s mysterious appearance in Las Vegas on Nov. 24, 1971 and John C Collins’ in the Rode-Away Inn in Portland, and so many red flags in the FBI investigation that I’ve run out of red ink. One last thought: Since abusers were often abused themselves, childhood sexual abuse may explain some of the affinity between Tina and DB. He was a male figure that she was readily familiar with; she was a woman he knew how to control, or at least feel safe with.

I do wonder if Tina was abused by Cooper in some way beyond the bomb threat etc. It is a pretty dramatic life change from stewardess to cloistered nun. Cooper may not have done anything more than is public. Just the thought of being blown up may have been trumatic enough. If I were a crew member who saw Cooper I'd worry that I'd be killed to prevent identification. The trauma, whatever it was, could also have affected her recollection. Time is also working against the accuracy of a memory of such a long past event. Many think Tina could ID DBC, or rule out a particular suspect, but that may not be a correct assumption. 377 I agree Three-Seven-Seven. I, too, am concerned about Tina Mucklow. Her retreat from the world into a cloisted monestery, and subsequent near-total disappearance, is another clue to the DBC story. Was she abused? I suspect it strongly, One-third of all American women are raped or sexually abused at some point in their life. So, when I hear of beautiful young women clutching bibles at work, and then heading for the sanctuary, I immediately wonder if sexual abuse from childhood is at play. That scenario is certainly the one put forward by Cathy O'Brien, who claims she was intentionally abused as a kid to prepare her for MK ULTRA and CIA work. I doubt, though, that Danny C. abused Tina in any way aboard 305. He was a courteous gentleman, although, albeit, ready to blow everyone to smithereens. Rather, I think the abuse occurred prior to the skyjacking, and played a role in subsequent events.

I was just thinking that it would be possible to make a strong FOIA request. We have evidence of the following: 1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public. 2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public. 3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication) I think the courts would frown on this, and that any argument around needing to keep information inside the FBI for investigative reasons would be discounted. In fact the courts would probably question just what the hell was going on? I'm totally with you Snow. Let's call Larry's bluff and the FBi's claim that it needs Citizen Sleuths. Let's demand they turn over all the DB Cooper files to the public. Let's all help the FBI here. I'm ready and willing to be a full-bodied sleuth! Give me the tools to be one, Mr. Ckret!

This is a corporate matter just as I have said. The FBI is being directed by NWA, maybe with a little input from McChord. But it is NWA wagging all tails, not the FBI, not McChord. The FBI and LE are totally reliant on NWA for everything. That's the chain of command dictated by WHO has the flight info! The probably were many phone conversations and some with H, all from NWA. I will say it again: the one source we have nothing zero zip from is ..... NWA! The gaps in info are with NWA. H probably doesnt know and never knew all of the discussions and decision making that got passed to the FBI from .... NWA. Everyone including the FBI was dependent on who? ... NWA. That is where the missing links are ... at NWA ... and they will never talk. Why should they! This is a corporate matter. H doesnt even have all the answers ... H was in Portland. NWA was at Minneapolis. Very important insight, G. I like it. I thought of you when I wrote it, actually. I think its 80% true. I have wondered if someone at the FBI looks at the Cooper case and thinks: hmmmm nice phd thesis in organisational crime investigation management, there. I say this under the assumption modern investigative organisational methods have improved! And some guy at the FBI is reading this thinking ... "what a throwback!'. You're psychic G. Before I jumped in with you DBC'ers I was writing a book about really big money and really big power - what NY Times bestselling author John Perkins calls the "corporatocracy." I was writing about how I see their influences at the local level, like the county sheriff's, fire departments, etc. I see their fingerprints every where I go, ie: why does corporate America push so hard for No Child Left Behind? The Mauck murders, which I think I posted about a week or so ago. Flight 800. The syringe wash-ups in NY in 1988 that closed the beaches for the summer. These are stories that I've covered/investigated and after thirty years I'm sensing a pattern, a familiarity to it all. And now with the economy! It's all deja vu all over again, again. I'd really like to talk with Tim Geitner's boss when TG was in charge of the NY Fed. What is Big Boys' end game? They already control all the money - what more do they want? As for NWA and the FBI-DBC. Whew............yeah, let's go to the Minny Apple and talk to some guys.....