BruceSmith

It's very simple if you remember one thing. Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach. Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI) The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time. I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ. They may not have had all the information. Yes! and it has to be NWA Soderlind group. Who else would it be? WHO HAS THE VESTED INTEREST AND IS FEEDING INFO TO THE FBI? - NWA! This is a corporate matter just as I have said. The FBI is being directed by NWA, maybe with a little input from McChord. But it is NWA wagging all tails, nbot the FBI, not McChord. The FBI and LE are totally reliant on NWA for everything. Thats trhe chain of command dictated by WHO has the flight info! The probably were many phone conversations and some with H, all from NWA. I will say it again: the one source we have nothing zero zip from is ..... NWA! The gaps in info are with NWA. H probably doesnt know and never knew all of the discussions and decision making that got passed to the FBI from .... NWA. Everyone including the FBI was dependent on who? ... NWA. That is where the missing links are ... at NWA ... and they will never talk. Why should they! This is a corporate matter. H doesnt even have all the answers ... H was in Portland. NWA was at Minneapolis. Very important insight, G. I like it.

I put a week's pay on the Snowmman. Go Snow! But take 377's beepers, please. T'anks.

I made my first jump in 1957, off Kevin O'Malley's garage. Boy was it cool. Took my mother's big beach towel and tied it around my neck and held the ends in my hands. My last jump was the following day. Whew, boy, was my mother mad. (see above). I love you guys! and this forum. I haven't talked so much about my childhood since a string of psychotherapy sessions back in the late 80s.

I just left a conference in Portland that Ralph and I spoke at. all that was presented was the facts.Then we opened it up for questions. alot of the normal questions came up. They were answered with facts and knowledge /experence / common sense involving the case. Quote Greetings Jerry, I would welcome any advance knowledge of DB Cooper-related conferences. Was this one a private affair, or one open to professionals and interested parties? I would have gone if I had known about it. In the meantime, can you give us a synopsis? Salient points made? Tidbits that tickled your fancy?

I have exchanged a few emails with Cook and despite his odd choices of media (Coast to Coast AM) and that Depoe Bay rag, I find him to be quite far from the Art Bell type kooks in his personal outlook. He is a smart guy. He thinks Gossett is the man. The Dan Cooper comic is a far out speculative connection to DBC, but who knows, it could have inspired the assumed name. I am not sure who first surfaced the Dan Cooper comics. What rules Gossett out? He jumped, he was army special ops trained, had money problems, looks more like the sketch than other suspects, apparently spent time in France and spoke French, had Ft Lewis connections, etc. He has some good credentials to be a possible Cooper. Ckret ignores Gossett, but based on what? Prints? DNA? Alibi? Witnesses? A frequent poster here has a good suspect with perhaps even more Cooper matches than Gossett, but Ckret ignores that too. Ckret must know something that he is not sharing that allows him to summarily dismiss otherwise qualified suspects. Could it be that the FBI has a very good idea who Cooper is/was but lacks unequivocal evidence and is seeking it through the forum? That would explain why Ckret doesn't pursue person leads nearly as much as physical evidence leads. Am I off base in this speculation? 377 You're right on the money, Three-Seven-Seven. I read these dynamics exactly as you do. By the way, Galen Cook has been wonderfully responsive to my outreach to him. Quite chatty at times, and helpful with phone numbers, etc. I feel blessed by his encouragement.

No bedrock truth type of calibration Cousin Brucie, just checking what kind of Kool Aid you drink. I am an avid reader of all that WTC, UFO and JFK conspiracy/coverup stuff, but I believe the simple explanations. Two planes, one assassin and no alien visitors. I REALLY want the impossibly weird to be true, but all that damned thermodynamics and physics stuff keeps getting between me and belief...Quote No Kool Aid, Three-Seven-Seven. Newman's Limeade. Though, I apply some Tequila when funds allow. My instincts and intellect tell me all the suspected conspiracies that you list are true. But, since I can't prove any, I just put them on a back burner - hold them in abeyance - while I muse the official reports....and check my rear-view mirror. I generally don't bother myself with the Big Conspiracies as my life is full just dealing with the local ones, like a double-homicide just down the road from me that still stinks to high-heaven, but my editors pulled me off it because the cops started playing rough. Remember, I stumbled into this Cooper thing by covering an air show last August, and after listening to Ron Forman for a few hours I had two pages of red flags on the FBI's investigation of Danny Boy. So, after reading a couple of books, talking to a couple of feds, I'm now hanging out with guys who like to step out of planes while in flight and don't seem to have any more of a social life than I do.

Quote ... Jack Cofelt was DB Cooper. The article was written by Jack Sheehan (not Byron Brown!). In 2008 Jack Sheehan wrote a short recapitulation of his earlier Las Vegan Magazine article about Brown, which I will attach below in complete form. I am doing this as a public service. Why Im doing it is totally beyond me! Quote Thanks, G. I appreciate this link. All I knew prior of Coffelt was whatever was in H's book. I'd love to read the articles if you have a link to them. I couldn't find them via Google, and I've got an email into Jack Sheehan, but no word so far.

QuoteCousin Brucie asked: Quote Cousin Brucie? I haven't been called that in forty years! Am I talking with paisanos here, from NY-NJ circa 1960s and WABC? Me - I'm from Long Island, graduated Chaminade HS in 1967, same as Bill O'Reilly, my erstwhile fellow journalist. You guys? BTW: I didn't go to Woodstock - I was pretty uptight around big crowds back then. Went instead to the NY State Theater in the Flushing World Fair Grounds for a free concert that featured many of the folks coming back from Woodstock, like the Incredible String Band.

QuoteCousin Brucie asked: "By the way, 377, what do I get calibrated against, or with? Pray tell. What do you hold to be bed-rock truth, down amongst the deepest of places in the center of your soul? " It's the way the sentences are written...all breathless and panting. I mean, even my snip of yours above is all breathy. The Cooper story is boring. It only deserves a recitation of facts and possibilities. But no one reads that. And no one tells you anything real, so you have to make up stuff. You have absolutely no current sources, even though the FBI investigation is supposed to be "hot". Like 377 wrote, you write like a fiction spy novel. Need shorter sentences. Quote How short? Sufficient?

Please believe me, Safe, omitting any mention of the Reptilian race was a complete oversight on my part. I'll try to bring it in somewhere in Chapter Two. Besides olive-skinned, considered the cold-blooded aspect - heck, who needs long johns at 10K in November when you're a Rep! Nevertheless, I do wonder about those scaly fellows. David Icke! Please return my emails!

Yup, I see much of the same thing. Not much free love, but maybe an occasional slam, bam, thank you, ma'am. I draw upon much of Barb Dayton here - when, as Bobby, he re-up into the Merchant Marine and ran munitions ships to Saigon out of San Francisco. Picked the ships with the biggest risks so he'd get the most hazard-duty pay. Couldn't sleep one night and caught a VC coming on board with a sachel charge. Killed him with his bear hands, and the VC was a longshoreman he had worked with the day before. Doesn't that sound like the Danny C. you know? I find the Smokejumpers-CIA-Air America-Cooper link the most intriguing thing I've come across in these pages. I've also enjoyed learning the perspectives of the parachuting community. From that, my sense is that DB Cooper hadn't done a whole lot of skydiving, but had done enough to make himself believe he could do the jump. I think DB had little formal, academic training, but rather, flew by the seat of his pants in all that he did.

Why, 377, you want to calibrate me? Gee. I'm blushing. Well, let me help, and touch a few of those buttons for you.... As for the WTC Blg I and 2, yes, I'm concerned that more than jet fuel and burning carpets brought them down. Inside job? Hmmm. Dr. Jones from BYU sure offers compelling information on that possibility. I've talked with the guy and he seems pretty straight-forward, but for the facts, I'd be hard pressed to offer any. Along those lines, I am equally concerned about the movie, United 93, that I saw in my local multiplex. The plot of the movie reveals that the first responders to the hole in Shankersville couldn't find the plane. However, I'm more concerned with WTC 7. As for JFK, I've seen many wondrous things in my life -inexplictable mysteries and beautious sights - but I have never seen a magic bullet. Have you? As for MKULTRA and CIA stuff, I'm a little confused by your comments. Are you saying you don't believe that MKULTRA was real? Or that it was real, but doesn't have anything to do with DB Cooper? Regarding UFOs and Sasquatch, well, let me just say that my commentaries on my alien-abduction-phenomena experiences on Multnomah Cable TV in the early 1990s were the most requested shows for re-play. Ahhh, where are my people when I need them most...Helloooo Portland..... And Sasquatch. Well, I've never seen him, nor smelled him, but I do live thirty miles north of the Dark Divide, which has the most reported S. sightings of any spot on Earth. So, I do keep an eye out for him when I go for my late night walks, after posting here at 2 am. Bourne Identity screenplays? Funny you should ask, for I just had a conversation a few moments ago with another journalist about my chronic inability to sell my work. Solution? - simple: I'm just going to remove the "non" from in front of the "fiction" on the manuscript headers. That way, everybody's happy and I get rich. But, unfortuneately, I seem to have a profound need to tell the truth as I know it. Alas, that dream of wealth was so fleeting...but it was so real......! By the way, 377, what do I get calibrated against, or with? Pray tell. What do you hold to be bed-rock truth, down amongst the deepest of places in the center of your soul?

I have the same question, 377. To whit: Part III: Why Can't the FBI Find DB Cooper? Are there multiple Coopers? Besides the mounting number of red flags flying over the federal investigation, there are additional pieces of information coming into public knowledge via non-governmental sources that point to a hidden agenda in the Cooper case. The first new piece of stunning information circulating is that there may be more than one DB Cooper. As impossible as that may sound, a number of very plausible candidates besides Barb Dayton are coming forward via death-bed confessions, family revelations and dogged research. It suggests that somehow they were all involved, or were convinced they were. The current list of leading candidates besides Barb Dayton includes: Ken Christenson, William Gossett, Richard McCoy and Duane Weber. To understand how and why there might be more than one DB Cooper, we need to carefully examine how these folks got on the Cooper list. Ken Christenson, now deceased, was a former Northwest Orient mechanic, flight attendant, and on November 24, 1971, a flight purser. He had also been a paratrooper in WWII, was by most accounts a loner, and had lived in the Tacoma suburb of Bonney Lake. In the 1990s, his younger brother, Lyle Christenson, became suspicious that Ken might be DB Cooper. After a circuitous personal crusade to learn the truth of his brother, Lyle first contacted a New York City private investigator, which then led to author Geoffrey Gray, who then wrote an excellent profile on Christenson. It was published in New York Magazine in 2007. Gray wrote in his article that Flight 305 stewardess Florence Schaffner said the photographs he showed her of Christenson “were the closest in resemblance to Cooper than any of the suspects she’s ever seen.” Next, Spokane lawyer Galen Cook advocates for William Gossett, a former Marine, career Army officer, and highly skilled paratrooper. Gossett is also deceased, but during a Coast-to-Coast radio interview Cook introduced two of Gossett’s sons, one of whom said his father had confessed to being DB Cooper. The son also said that his father had shown him keys to a safe deposit box in a Vancouver, BC bank where he said the $200,000 was stashed. Richard McCoy is on the list for three big reasons. One, he actually hijacked an airliner using the exact same methods as Cooper, escaping with $500,000 by parachuting into the skies over Provo, Utah. Two, the FBI agent who shot and killed McCoy in a subsequent gun battle, Nicholas O’Hara, allegedly said, “When I shot Richard Mc Coy, I shot DB Cooper at the same time.” Three, the man making the claim on the above statement is Russell Calame, the former chief of the FBI’s Salt Lake City office at the time of the McCoy caper, and co-author with Bernie Rhodes in the aforementioned DB Cooper, The Real McCoy. Next is Duane Weber, a man with a mixed background that includes a two-year hitch in the Navy during WWII that ended with a dishonorable discharge, a four-month stay in the Army that was cut short when they determined him “undesirable,” and at least seventeen years in prison at six different prisons for forgery and burglary. His widow, Jo, says that he confessed to being Dan Cooper as he was lingering near death in 1995. She also relates a string of supporting circumstantial experiences, like an eerie trip from their home in Ft. Collins, Colorado to the shores of the Columbia River a few months before the $5,800 was found. Since then, Jo Weber has been on a quest to find the truth about her husband, and has received the support of the aforementioned FBI investigator, Ralph Himmelsbach. Journalist Douglas Pasternak writes in US News that Himmelsbach says Weber “is one of the best suspects he’s come across.” Himmelsbach, now in retirement, is associated with another quirk in this story. He now lives in Woodburn, Oregon, just a few miles from where Barb Dayton says she buried the money. This fact is especially intriguing since The Daily specifically stated in 1979 that Woodburn was the landing site and depository for the money. A CIA connection? As for the hows and whys of multiple DB Coopers, one possibility is a top-secret CIA operation that was on-going during the same time period, specifically, the mind control program called MKULTRA (pronounced M-K ULTRA). Could the multiple DB Coopers be part of some kind of Manchurian Candidate scenario? Could these guys have been brain-washed into thinking they were DB Cooper? Or is the case even weirder than that, such as the possibility that the case was part of a wild program to train special-operation agents and everybody had to hijack a plane to graduate? The subject of two Hollywood movies, the Manchurian Candidate theme revolves around sophisticated psychological, surgical and pharmaceutical efforts to create a mind-controlled presidential candidate. However, the term is also widely used to describe the development of intelligence operatives whose conscious recall can be switched-off by their minders after any nefarious deed, such as a political assassination. The CIA’s use of Manchurian Candidate-like techniques in its MKULTRA program was confirmed by US Congressional investigations during the 1970s. In fact, MKULTRA was a huge, clandestine CIA operation that supposedly began in 1953 to learn the secrets of brain-washing techniques in the interrogation of captured American soldiers by the communist forces during the Korean War. However, the initial research programs morphed in many directions and eventually included experiments with LSD, sleep and sensory deprivation, electro-convulsive shock, and hypnosis. They were all designed to determine if a combination of technology and behavioral techniques could be developed to control an individual’s mind, mood, memory and emotions. As for the size of MKULTRA, in some works, such as John Marks’, The Search for the Manchurian Candidate: The CIA and Mind Control, it is reported that the program encompassed 6% of the agency’s budget. So, the MKULTRA shenanigans were very real, and according to subsequent research by journalists over the decades, never really shut down even though ordered to do so by Congress. For instance, author Naomi Klein in Shock Doctrine, shows that the current usage of water-boarding and psychological torture during interrogations at Abu Ghrab and Gitmo started with MKULTRA, and they has never really stopped, apparently, although the military was ordered to do so. Tragically, the level of sophistication has also grown. Journalist and documentary film maker Jon Ronson details in his shocking book, The Men Who Stared at Goats, that the military’s attempt at mind-control has entered a new whole new phase. Since 1979, the military has sought to weaponize mind-over-matter techniques, such as biofeedback processes. Ronson describes a secretive unit at Fort Bragg that endeavored to kill their victims by mentally imaging the target dead. Specifically, they stared at goats, and focused on stopping the animal’s heart until the animal expired. Sadly, Ronson reports they have been successful. With all of this going on in our military, is it that far-fetched to consider that the DB Cooper case is involved somehow? Yes, the idea that Dayton, Gossett, McCoy, et al. were brainwashed into skyjacking a plane is a stretch. Nevertheless, let’s probe a bit deeper into the candidates’ psychological make-up and see if we can gain any hint of a connections between DB Cooper and mind-control. Starting with Richard McCoy, Cooper researcher and former FBI agent, Richard Tosaw, writes in his book, DB Cooper- Dead or Alive? that Richard McCoy had a “mental breakdown with no warning whatsoever” in the fall of 1971, just months before the Cooper jump and eight months before his own skyjacking in the skies over Provo. Tosaw says that McCoy was admitted to a psychiatric hospital and determined to be suffering from “a delayed stress syndrome, confusion and disorientation,” presumably from his two tours in Vietnam. Yet, he was back at his normal routine within days. Tosaw also writes that McCoy’s buddy, Robert Van Ieperen, is at a loss to explain why McCoy did the skyjacking, saying: “It couldn’t have been for the money, because that was never important to him. I think he saw it as an adventure, like it was a personal challenge. He enjoyed the excitement of testing his skill, and the more dangerous the situation the better he liked it.” More confounding, Tosaw writes that at the time of his skyjacking McCoy was shouldering a heavy load of law enforcement classes at Brigham Young University and had already taken a qualifying test for the Utah State Patrol, scoring first state-wide. Are these inconsistencies a sign of mind control, PTSD, or an unstable gung-ho warrior? Another behavioral clue that pops up quickly is that several of the current suspects had issues with sexuality and relationships: Dayton experienced both genders, Christenson, according to Gray, was known to invite runaway boys to live with him, while Gossett had five wives, and Weber had six or seven – his widow doesn’t know for sure – plus a common-law marriage. Further, many held multiple jobs or had disjointed careers. Most pulled macho military stints; knew planes and were paratroopers. Also, several were criminally minded – Weber had an extensive record, McCoy died in a shoot-out, and Barb Dayton enjoyed fantasizing on how to pull-off the perfect crime. Further, a look into Barb Dayton’s clinical record gives us a clue as to what may be going on. Specifically, Barb Dayton had more than a sex-change operation - she also picked up a new personality. As a man Dayton was a brawling tough-guy; but as a woman she was a witty, quiet librarian. Better yet, she could switch between the two personalities as if she was trained. Ron Forman says he saw her adopt her macho, masculine persona at will. Did the CIA train her to do so? Seeking a link, I asked Barb Dayton’s daughter, Rena Ruddell, if she had any inkling of her father being a subject of a secret mind-control program. “No,” she said, but added that her father and her uncle, Bobby’s brother Billie, often went off to Mexico for long, vagabonding trips. “Maybe something happened to them in Mexico,” she added. “My cousins sure think so, plus, Billie became schizophrenic later in life and was obsessed with UFOs. Maybe that’s a connection.” If mind-control activity plays any role in the DB Cooper case, could there have been one official DB Cooper skyjacking then, such as Flight 305, combined with other simulated virtual-reality skyjackings as part of some kind of black-ops training exercise? Shedding light on this possibility is Ralph Himmelsbach, who writes in his memoirs, NORJAK: the Investigation of DB Cooper, that Northwest Orient knew their 727 would fly adequately at 10,000 feet with a lowered aft staircase because the CIA was doing just that to sky-drop agents and supplies behind enemy lines. Looking more closely, Himmelsbach also reveals that in the eight months after Cooper’s jump, twenty other skyjackers used MOs similar to DB’s. Most got busted during their caper, but four were successful such as McCoy, albeit only for a short while. Is any of this related? Are the DB Coopers CIA alumni from Vietnam or graduates of a CIA mind-control laboratory, or both? Or are the Cooper suspects just an unrelated bunch of dare-devils? Nevertheless, MKULTRA was a real mind-control operation, and Cathy O’Brien, author of Trance Formation of America says that she was a subject of the MKULTRA experiments that bears light on the Cooper case. In testimony before the US House of Representatives, she has given detailed accounts of how sexual abuse shocked her mind into compartmentalized sections and transformed her into a person who had multiple personalities, all for CIA purposes. The goal, O’Brien says, was to be the ultimate intelligence courier: deliver a message in one personality, get switched off into another personality, then walk out totally unaware of the mission and unable to spill the beans if caught. O’Brien’s claim reflects similarly to Barb Dayton’s dual personalities. Certainly, Dayton’s ability to switch personas gave her the grandest of disguises. What better skill for an intelligence operative to possess than to be able to flip from man to woman, and back, with just a wig and a few garments needed to complete the ruse? Reno The biggest red flag that points to mind-control is what happened in Reno when Cooper’s plane landed for refueling on its way to Mexico. Meeting Flight 305 was a combined team of FBI agents from the Las Vegas and Reno offices. According to Bernie Rhodes, Russ Calame’ co-author of DB Cooper- The Real McCoy, the feds quickly ascertained that Cooper as gone, but something very strange happened during their subsequent investigations aboard the plane. First, there is uncertainty on who did the actual dusting for fingerprints – the FBI or Reno City Police. Secondly, the FBI failed to retrieve any on-flight magazines that Cooper was suspected of handling during the hours Flight 305 circled Sea-Tac. And lastly, the FBI released the plane back to Northwest Orient the next morning at 9 am, losing forever any chance for gathering additional evidence. Twenty-four hours later, the FBI crime lab in Washington DC reported the fingerprints were too badly smudged to be of any value, and without the magazines or any other material to dust, the FBI was left without a vital body of evidence. Whispers flew throughout FBI field offices wondering how and why the Reno group could foul-up the evidence retrieval so badly. In researching his book, Rhodes interviewed many of the Reno crew in 1985, and he uncovered the most startlingly information: the recall of some of the agents regarding their assignments is wildly at odds with one another. According to Rhodes, four agents conducted the collection of evidence aboard the plane: Jack Ricks, John Norris, Alf Stousland and Special Agent in Charge Harold “Red” Campbell. Rhodes writes that Ricks remembers Stousland dusting for fingerprints while Ricks himself collected cigarette butts and paper cups. However, John Norris recalled the Reno City PD performing the fingerprint dusting. Further, during his interviews with members of the larger FBI team on ground duty, several agents had difficulty recalling exactly what they did that night. As Rhodes describes it, the agents weren’t purposefully forgetful, but rather, their minds seemed fuzzy. Rhodes was aghast, and interviewed the agents on two additional occasions in 1989 to see if their memory would improve. They didn’t. Most disturbing though, not one agent remembers retrieving, or even seeing, the most dramatic piece of evidence DB Cooper left on the airplane – his clip-on tie and a pearl tie pin. This, despite flight attendant Tina Mucklow telling her FBI debriefers she remembered seeing DB take it off and place it on the seat beside him. Rhodes characterizes his discussion on this issue with the FBI team “as if they were victims of some strange posthypnotic suggestion.” In addition, Cooper’s tie and clasp were not included in the initial written FBI evidence report from Reno, but were sent to Seattle four days later and are now the featured part of the evidentiary collection. But how come the feds in Reno missed it? Could their cognitive abilities have been reduced by hypnosis or technological means? Did their brains get blitzed by MKULTRA-style electrical frequency machines? Or was the tie and pin a plant, and Tina Mucklow was the one who got zapped and told a hypnotically-implanted story? Did somebody sabotage the FBI’s investigation in Reno? Plus, whatever happened with skin and hair samples from the head-rest cover, bits of clothing thread left in the fibers of Cooper’s seat, or dirt on the floor deposited from his shoes? Were these pieces of evidence ever collected? Loose Ends Barb Dayton’s story is close to air-tight except for one thing: her bundle of $5,800 in twenties was not the only thing found at the Columbia River beach. The site, known as Tena’s Bar, was extensively excavated by the FBI after little Brian Ingram found the stash, and the feds discovered pieces of twenty-dollar bills in multiple locations, some as deep as three deep. That suggests either some pretty fancy hydrologic repositioning by Mother Nature (or the US Army Corps of Engineers who dredged that part of the river in 1974 and threw the muck onto the beach, as reported by Richard Tosaw), or multiple burials by Barb, or multiple burials by many other people. Could burying bits of twenties at Tena’s Bar have been part of a MKULTRA ritual to embed “Cooper-ness” into the subconsciousness memory of the team members? Is that what Duane Weber was doing on his mysterious road trip to Portland? Also, the facts about Ariel as a jump site are curiously at odds with each other. Ron Forman says the FBI picked Ariel based on the radar tracking conducted by McChord Air Base. Plus, a plastic laminated card with instructions on how to lower the aft stairs in a Boeing 727 was found in the general vicinity of the original ground search many years later by a hunter, and when Boeing repaired the stairs damaged in the landing at Reno, they found it was missing its instructional card. So, was Captain Scott mistaken as to his exact position that night, or did a MKULTRA mastermind fudge a military radar report and slip an instructional card into the woods? Last Word As for probing the netherworld of possible governmental cover-ups, it’s going to take a while to go beyond the literature searches and a few friendly phone calls. So, in the meantime, let’s go back to the original thread that we began pulling in the beginning: was Barb Dayton DB Cooper? Here, I’ll give Barb Dayton’s daughter, Rena, the final say: “I asked him once, out-right,” Rena declared. “But he was evasive, simply saying, ‘Whoever that was must have been a very brave person.’ My father didn’t tell lies. He was pretty much on the up and up. “Much later, I asked my mother if my father was DB Cooper, and she said, ‘He could be - he had the mind for it.’ “So, yes, I really, truly believe my father was DB Cooper.” © Bruce A. Smith 2009 PO Box 1676 Yelm, Washington 98597

Tell more, Nick, please. What could these fancy chutes do? When did Mayfield get involved? I understand from DB Cooper researchers that Mayfield was 36 years old in 1971. That makes him 10 in 1945.

Oh for fucks sake dont give those people in that thread any more whacky ideas to throw out there Too late, we're already here. Cool, Nick. I look forward to hearing more of your research.

Part II, of four The FBI investigation comes under suspicion: Although the Formans have never met with Carr, they did meet with an FBI agent in August, 2006 to discuss their findings. The agent was named Jeremy Blauser, and he met with the Formans after they hired an attorney, Ed Hudson, to help make contact with the Bureau, and to also iron-out copyright and other legal details in their forthcoming book. Intriguingly, Blauser told the Formans and Hudson that he was based out of the Los Angeles FBI office - giving them a business card to prove it - and declared he was “on loan” to the Seattle office to help with a resurgent Cooper investigation. On the day of the scheduled meeting Ron became ill, so Pat, alone with her attorney, met with Blauser in a downtown Tacoma office building. Pat says that Blauser was initially a skeptic but became very excited by her revelations, and evolved into a true believer by the end of their two-hour conversation. When they parted, he asked for items of Barb’s that would provide DNA samples, such as hair brushes and sealed envelopes, which the Formans provided shortly thereafter. However, when I asked Carr about the Dayton DNA samples, he said he has never received any. However, he did confirm that the Bureau had a partial DNA sample from the clip-on tie that Cooper had left inexplicably on the aircraft. “The DNA samples could be Cooper, or somebody else’s. We don’t know,” Carr said. But when I asked Agent Carr if he was planning to contact the Formans and conduct a DNA screening on Barb Dayton, he said the Formans would have to perform the Dayton DNA analysis and then bring it to him. Putting aside Agent Carr’s less-than-robust investigation for the moment, is the FBI conducting parallel investigations in the Cooper case – Carr’s in Seattle, and one out of Los Angeles run by Blauser? Or did Carr or Blauser botch the hand-off, or is the FBI stonewalling this inquiry? Sadly, efforts to clarify what is going on have come to an impasse for Special Agent Jeremy Blauser has vanished. His cell phone number has been disconnected, the Los Angeles FBI says that he no longer works there, and they claim they are unable to say where he’s gone. As for Carr, the last time I asked for an interview, I was told he was out of town for two weeks even though he was heard on NPR’s Morning Edition several days later chatting with a KUOW radio crew about car-pooling to the annual DB Cooper Day festival in Ariel, Washington. Nevertheless, let’s return to the clues at hand. How about old fashioned fingerprints? DB reportedly downed several bourbons and water (and paid for it with his own cash). Aren’t there any fingerprints on the cocktail cup? The government has Bobby Dayton’s prints from his lengthy service in the Army and Merchant Marine. Is there a match? If not, why not say so? Lastly, Larry Carr, with a chillingly dismissive tone of voice, told me that “nothing the Formans have presented fits anything in the case files.” Nothing? What about the confession, then? As for file-comparisons, how about the fact that Dayton was a sharp pilot and parachutist, plus she knew how to rig dynamite charges? Carr told me the FBI “intensely investigated” the skydiving and flying communities of the Pacific Northwest in the days after the skyjacking, considering at the time that pilots and parachutists were prime suspects. So, how did the feds miss a 40-something pilot who did stunts with a rinky-dink Cessna 140? Further, Dayton knew from years of flying over Washington and Oregon that instructing the Northwest Orient pilots to fly to Mexico City at 10,00 feet would automatically put them in the air transportation corridor known as Victor 23, and would place her directly on top of I-5 at Woodburn, Oregon. Plus, Dayton was a Raleigh chain-smoker and her drink of choice was bourbon. Further, Dayton routinely wore loafers, even while flying, and Ron Forman says he never saw her wear any other kind of foot wear. In addition, Dayton held a well-known grudge against the FAA for regulations that prevented her from becoming a commercial pilot. Plus, she was known famously for her disregard of money, on at least one occasion draining the fuel from her Cessna 140 and transferring it to her car so she could drive home to her apartment in West Seattle. Her psychiatrist reported she had nothing to live for; isn’t that a suitable state of mind for jumping out of a 727 the night before Thanksgiving while wearing a thin rain coat and slip-ons? Plus, the Formans say that on the night Barb confessed, the group of pilots asked to take a Polaroid of her done-up as DB. Ron says the resemblance of the picture to the published FBI composite sketch was so uncanny that one individual freaked-out, tore up the picture and fled the house. In addition, a newspaper article dated November 21, 1979 from the University of Washington, The Daily, describes a Cooper scenario virtually identical to the story Ron and Pat now tell. Written by two undergrad reporters named Clark Humphrey and Brian Guenther, The Daily says they got the story from two secretive sleuths who used psychic powers to uncover the truth. Weird, yes, but was Barb planting stories at The Daily while she worked at the library across campus? Further, The Daily reported that the FBI had been contacted, and that the feds considered the information “credible.” Is that true? Did the FBI know in 1979 of the Woodburn landing and the sex-change angle? Regardless of whether or not Barb Dayton failed to register on the FBI’s radar screen in the early 1970s as a cracker-jack pilot, or got on it in 1979 with the UW publication but then inexplicably dropped off it again, doesn’t the FBI want to wrap-up this case, now? One last, lonely red flag: why did the Department of Justice wait until the very last possible day to obtain this John Doe indictment when the Portland office of the FBI had been warning the DOJ attorneys long before? Was someone in Washington, DC trying to run out the clock on the DB Cooper case? More Doubts: the Ariel screw-up- In the days after the skyjacking, the FBI mounted an enormous investigation, which included a massive ground search in the vicinity of Ariel, Washington, about 30 miles north of Vancouver, WA. This area was selected based on where the FBI thought Flight 305 was flying when the aft stairs bounced. Hundreds of soldiers from Ft. Lewis, Washington, and a phalanx of cops, sheriffs and feds scoured 28 square miles of rugged mountainous terrain along the Lewis River drainage of the Cascades Mountains. After eighteen days of a painstaking yard-by-yard search, they found zilch and quit. Ignoring the Barb Dayton angle for a moment, did that bump actually occur over Ariel, or somewhere else north of Portland? It has been revealed in numerous places, most notably by authors Russ Calame and Bernie Rhodes in their book DB Cooper - The Real McCoy” that the FBI failed to get the exact position of Flight 305 from the pilot, Captain William Scott. They say that at a retirement party in 1980 for the FBI agent who had headed the Portland office’s Cooper investigation, Special Agent Ralph Himmelsbach, Capt Scott revealed that Flight 305 was flying over Woodland, Washington when the stairs bucked, not ten miles further east over Ariel as the feds had originally surmised. In addition, the FBI did not accurately determine the direction of the wind, either, according to the captain of the Continental Airlines jetliner flying directly behind Flight 305 in Victor 23. In his Norjak book, Himmelsbach says the failure to ascertain the wind direction came to light in 1978 when Capt. Tom Bohan, the Continental skipper, contacted the FBI on his own initiative and told them 80 knot winds that night were coming at him from a compass heading of 166 degrees – slightly east of head-on. That was nearly 80 degrees different than the westerly 245 degree angle the FBI had used in its calculations. Plus, at 80 knots it was more than double in strength than the FBI’s original configuration. Hence, if DB Cooper had jumped where the FBI said he had, his drift in the wind also would have put him west of Ariel. Based on these two pieces of information – and maintaining the FBI’s reckoning of a jump at the Ariel latitude and not Woodburn - DB Cooper should have landed slightly north or northwest of Woodland, WA, and touched down in the flat lands of the Columbia River basin, not the mountain peaks of the Cascades. The FBI has yet to explain how or why the errors were made. © Bruce A. Smith 2009 PO Box 1676 Yelm, Washington 98597

How was she involved in WW 2 combat and how old would that make her? Something doesn't add up age wise to fit the Dayton was Cooper story. The book says she is 43 in 1969 when he became a she through the wonders of surgery. That means he was a WW 2 Philippines theater combatant at about age 15? I guess its possible, but it seems far fetched. Her story about jumping from near the top of the steps doesn't add up either. I don't think you'd get enough downward stair deflection for a clear exit. Sluggo, Snow? Was she an experienced skydiver? The book says yes but where is the proof? What DZ? What jumpers knew her? If not experienced there is little chance she could do a jet exit, 8000 ft night freefall and pull at 1000 ft AGL. A flat spin and blackout is far more probable if she was a novice. /reply] Good questions, 377. Bobby-Barb Dayton was 17 years old in 1943, as I understand the story. He joined the Merchant Marine at that time, and spent the remainder of WWII in his capacity of seaman. However, during a couple of weeks early in this gig, he left his ship in the Philippines and headed to the jungles where he freelanced with the Moro people. In post WWII- 1945-7-ish time, Bobby joined the Army for a short hitch, then returned to the Merchant Marine and worked as a seaman on munititon ships on-and-off for many years. As for the specifics of jumping, experience, etc., those questions are the ones I would like to pose to FBI officials, as their behavior is my primary interest, not Barb Dayton's. I am not here to prove Barb is DB. In fact, I don't think she is. But I do suspect she's part of the Cooper case somehow, as I do believe Duane Weber and McCoy are, also. But, 377, I will be mindful of your very legitimate questioning, for it advances the whole investigation. Nevertheless, at the moment my primary questions are: Does the FBI investigate folks who confess to being DB Cooper? Does a confession get you to the head of the line? What are the criteria the feds use to determine who gets what kind of review? Are any confessees not investigated? If so, who makes that determination and how? Did the FBI investigate Barb Dayton? If not, why not? Lastly, if the FBI is investigating Barb now, how extensive is it? As for records of Barb-Bobby Dayton's parachuting experience, I doubt there are many. He-she had an utter disregard for authority and formality, and I imagine he-she jumped when and where he wanted to. I'd be surprised if he had any more than rudimentary, informal instruction. Heck, he/she flew his Cessna for years without a pilot's license and disregarded the requirement for a medical clearance to fly, and in fact, did have at least one heart attack flying out of Thun Field with Pat Forman, who had to take the controls and get coached to the ground by her husband who zoomed in next to her to guide her. Just before touch-down, however, Barb regained consciousness and took the stick and got them safely home.

Quote IHowever, it's obvious we don't have all the data the FBI does. So the idea of "somehow one's mind is better than others" is patently silly. All that matters is the information the FBI has, that they've not released. And the FBI investigation. Quote I agree that the FBi's investigation is a salient feature to investigate. Hence, I'm going to share my writings so far, in four installments to help foster that discussion. I trust these 1,500 words segments won't plug up any servers or take up too much space on the thread at any one time. I'm aiming for a chapter a day. Here's my first post: Part I, of four Why Can’t the FBI Find DB Cooper? Is it because he was a woman? It's been 37 years since the famed skyjacker, DB Cooper, parachuted from a 727 jetliner with $200,000 in twenties tethered to his waist. Not only has he never been seen since, his identity is still a mystery; and if he died in the jump not a single shred of his parachute, his briefcase, or any trace of his remains has ever been found. Not even the loot has surfaced, except for a $5,800 bundle discovered nine years later at a Columbia River beach that the FBI acknowledges was deposited there many years after the hijacking. So, why can’t the feds find DB Cooper? Is it because they’re looking for a man? What if DB Cooper were a woman who donned the ultimate disguise and posed as a man? That’s the hypothesis presented by a Pierce County, WA pilot and his wife in their new book, The Legend of DB Cooper: Death by Natural Causes. Authors Ron and Pat Forman say that their life-long friend and fellow pilot at Thun Field, Barb Dayton, had confessed she was the legendary Cooper, and had detailed many of the finer points of the crime over the years before her death from pulmonary disease in 2002. Barb Dayton also revealed that she had once been Bobby Dayton, and in 1969 at the age of 43, had received a sex-change operation – the first ever in Washington state. The core of her story is that in 1971, two years after her operation, she reverted to her male persona to perform the hijacking. Never fully believing her, the Formans waited until her passing to research her story. Compiling a noteworthy amount of supporting documents and family testimony, the Formans make a compelling case that their old sky-mate was DB Cooper. Even more surprising is that the true story of Barb Dayton points to an even deeper and darker mystery than just a hijacked airplane, and suggests that the FBI’s Cooper investigation has been compromised. But let’s begin at the beginning: Barb Dayton confesses to being DB Cooper- I met the Formans while reporting on an air show at Thun Field in August, 2008. Wandering amongst a few dozen vintage aircraft, I found Ron beside his 1939 Fairchild 24, a single-wing, four-seater restored to perfect condition. He clearly reveled in sharing the details of his plane, down to the tiny vase and fresh flowers affixed to the rear port window. When the summer heat forced us to seek shade under the starboard wing, I noticed a book with DB Cooper written on its front cover. “Are you into DB Cooper?” I asked. “You bet!” he roared. “My wife and I just wrote that book.” “Really?” “Yup!” For the next four hours Ron regaled me with his story. Ron and Pat first met Dayton at Thun Field in 1977. Dayton, a quiet and respected research librarian at the University of Washington during the week, became on the weekends, a passionate flyer of a Cessna 140, a tiny, fun plane to operate – kind of like a Chevy Nova of airplanes. Ron, an Air Force mechanic stationed at the near-by McChord Air Base, had come to Thun looking to purchase an affordable plane, and Barb told him about another Cessna 140 that was available. Although it was in very used condition, the engine and structural elements were still sound and the Formans bought it. As they restored their new airplane, Barb Dayton, a top-notch mechanic, pitched in. Although she was socially reserved to the point of being a near-isolate, their shared love of flying allowed Barb Dayton to build a guarded, yet warm, relationship. Nearly every weekend for the next year or two, the Formans and Barb flew their 140s to a myriad of Pacific Northwest airfields, and cemented what was to become a life-long friendship. Often, other Cessna 140 pilots from Thun would join them in a kind of informal flying club. As Ron tells it, during these weekend fly-abouts Barb began dropping little tidbits about the Cooper skyjacking case. Typically, a cynical newspaper report or radio commentary would trigger Barb to offer a robust defense of DB Cooper, saying, “Well, he could have jumped over the flatlands of Oregon and not the wooded mountains of Washington. That way he could have easily survived.” During one instance of these friendly debates, Ron remarked to his friend, “Yeah, I know Barb – you’re DB Cooper!” and laughed. The joke landed flat with Dayton, who gave Ron a “look that could kill” according to Pat, and the huddled pilots hastily finished their coffee and returned to their planes. Crossing the tarmac, Barb sidled up to Ron and announced in a low, no-nonsense tone of voice, “Ron, I don’t want you to ever, ever, say that again. Not even as a joke.” The Facts of the DB Cooper Case- Indeed, the DB Cooper case is no joking matter for it is the only unsolved airplane hijacking in the history of the United States. Not only is it unsolved, there is very little known about it. What is public knowledge, however, is that on the day before Thanksgiving, November 24, 1971, a man named Dan Cooper bought a one-way ticket in Portland, Oregon for a flight to Sea-Tac International Airport in Seattle. As his plane, Northwest Orient’s Flight 305, rolled down the runway, he handed a note to a stewardess that said he was hijacking the craft. He demanded $200,000 and four parachutes in exchange for the safe release of the 36 passengers at Sea-Tac. In addition, he wanted the plane, a Boeing 727, to be fully refueled. If these demands were unmet, Cooper wrote, he would blow-up the plane, and to prove his point he opened a cloth briefcase to show the stewardess what looked like sticks of dynamite, wiring and batteries. After circling Sea-Tac for several hours, Cooper received the message from the FBI that his money, in twenties, and parachutes awaited him. Cooper allowed the pilot to land; and upon receiving the money and chutes he released the passengers and two flight attendants, retaining only the three cockpit crew and one stewardess. Cooper then instructed the flight crew to take-off and head to Mexico City, but within extraordinary parameters: fly no higher than 10,000 feet, keep the landing gear down and locked, and set the wing flaps at 15 degrees - all condition suitable for a parachute jump. When the plane reached 10,000 feet and leveled off, Cooper asked the one flight attendant on board to help him lower the aft stairs on the 727, one of the few commercial aircraft that has such as feature. Once the stairs deployed, Cooper ordered the flight attendant to re-join the crew in the cockpit. As she left, she caught a glimpse of Cooper tying a parachute cord around his waist that appeared to be attached to the money bag, a parachuting trick used by savvy combat paratroopers jumping at night - get your heavy stuff in a bag and off your knees, and tether it long enough so it’ll signal when you’re about to hit the ground. That was the last anyone has ever seen of DB Cooper. Although the FBI now proclaims to the public that DB Cooper was a fool and probably died in the jump - it did take place on a rainy November night - no trace of DB Cooper has ever been found. According to one FBI official, “We never even found so much as a belt buckle.” The 10,000 twenty-dollar bills vanished, too; not a single one has ever showed up in circulation even though the FBI had recorded each serial number. However, in 1980, a neat stack of bills totaling $5,800 was discovered by an eight-year old boy under a bit of sand in a Columbia River mud bank. Since the rubber bands were still intact and most of the bills were in good condition, the FBI says that the money was buried on the river bank several years after the skyjacking. How did they get there? The Formans say they have an answer. The Formans tell Barb Dayton’s Story- Ron and Pat say that around 1978, when the statute of limitations on the hijacking had supposedly expired and Barb felt free of criminal prosecution, she began sharing the details of the caper and finally admitted that she was “Dan Cooper,” the name the hijacker actually used when he/she bought his/her ticket. It is very telling that she called herself Dan and not DB, because the DB part of this legendary moniker was created by a mistaken newspaper reporter in the early hours of the hijacking. In those days, a passenger manifest only had first-initial, last-name recorded, so when the FBI was scratching names off their list as passengers de-planed at Sea-Tac, they were left looking for a D. Cooper in seat 18-C. The Feds quickly alerted Portland police for information on any D. Coopers. In turn, Portland PD told the FBI they had a petty criminal by the name of DB Cooper. An eaves-dropping Associated Press journalist over-heard the conversation and reported to the world that DB Cooper was the skyjacker. Obviously, the name stuck. Dayton said she very easily survived the jump because she parachuted – not over the rugged terrain of Washington’s Cascade Mountains where the FBI says DB jumped - but nine minutes later above the flat, muddy hazelnut groves of Woodburn, Oregon. The discrepancy derives from how to assess the floppy behavior of the aft stairs in flight. The FBI says the biggest bounce occurred over Ariel, Washington, presumably caused by DB Cooper jumping off the bottom step. However, the Formans say Barb descended to the bottom step over Ariel to ascertain where the glow of Portland’s lights was in the cloud cover. That glaze of light became her primary beacon. Then, she climbed back up the stairs to await Woodburn. After passing over Portland, Dayton looked next for the strobing lights of Aurora State Airport, waited until she got slightly south, and then, from the safety of the top step she dove into a rain-soaked night sky. After a free-fall of 9,000 feet to minimize detection, she pulled the rip cord at 1,000 feet, guided herself by the now-visible lights on Interstate-5, and made a soft landing just off the highway in the farming environs of Woodburn, about 30 miles south of Portland. This story is so huge the Formans say they never completely believed their friend, but they believed enough to take notes surreptitiously once the flying was over for the day and they returned to the privacy of their home. Their notes contain nuggets of information from Barb, including a full telling of how she stashed the money in an irrigation cistern in a hazelnut grove where she had once worked years before. She then moved the money in 1980 after having a dream in which the ink on the money began to “float away.” She retrieved it all and re-deposited $5,800 of it in a mud bank along the Columbia to “keep the story going.” Dayton said that the FBI never found the remainder of the money because she never spent any. In fact, the skyjacking was not done for the money at all, but rather, was done for therapeutic reasons. The Formans says that Barb Dayton’s sex-change operation did not go well in the early stages. Initially, it was physically painful and she had to sit on special cushions for the first couple of months. Then, the agitation she had felt all her life, that she was more a woman than man and thus needed a woman’s body to properly experience herself, was only partially lifted. Clinical records from the period just before the skyjacking indicated that Barb Dayton was suicidal, unemployed and broke. Yet, her psychiatrist, with whom she was seeing regularly for several years after the operation, reported a few months after the date of the hijacking that Barb Dayton had had an inexplicable mood shift, that she was noticeably happier and content with her situation. In fact, a month after the skyjacking Barb Dayton landed a job at the University of Washington as a research librarian, a position she held for many years. This notion of skyjacking a plane to lift a suicidal depression, as bizarre as it sounds actuality fits the larger personality profile of Bobby/Barb Dayton. The information the Formans have been able to collect from family re-enforces their own observations that Barb Dayton was an individual who constantly needed to challenge herself, as if in an epic search for self-worth. She indulged in high speed car races down country roads, challenged authority relentlessly, and flew fearlessly – even to the point of recklessness. Jumping out of a plane at night while wearing loafers was the kind of dare-devil stunt Barb thrived upon. In fact, the Formans say that when Barb Dayton’s father heard about the skyjacking on TV the night of the crime, he remarked, “That’s the kind of thing Bobby would do.” Then, after this period of self-disclosure to her friends, Barb Dayton learned the Department of Justice, literally at the last hour, obtained a “John Doe” indictment for the DB Cooper skyjacking. This meant Barb would remain on a legal hook forever, and she quickly refuted her claims of being Dan Cooper. Nevertheless, Dayton had plenty of other wild stories to tell, such as being a guerilla fighter against the Japanese in the jungles of the Philippines during WWII, working as an explosive expert for logging companies, and surviving eight days without food in the Yukon while being chased by a grizzly bear. Do you really believe this stuff? Barb’s friends would ask each other. Is Barb really DB Cooper? Jungle fighting with Moro tribesmen? Grizzlies? So, on one hand they never fully believed her, but on the other they were also paralyzed with fear – what if Barb was telling the truth? Would the FBI consider them accomplices in the skyjacking if they didn’t turn her in? As a result, the Formans and the several other pilots who received Barb’s confession remained silent. So, when Barb Dayton died of cardiac and pulmonary disease in 2002, Ron and Pat decided to investigate these tall tales. Through extensive research that included military records and numerous conversations with Barb’s family, the Formans have been able to prove all of Barb Dayton’s stories are true, except for one, and for that they need the FBI to release the DNA profile of DB Cooper. For reasons that are unclear to me, the FBI has not publically revealed the DNA analysis of Cooper that they have been able to gather with the advent of new technology. Further confounding the Formans, the FBI official currently in charge of the Cooper case, Larry Carr, has never met with them, nor returned a single phone call or email. End of Part I. © Bruce A. Smith 2009 PO Box 1676 Yelm, Washington 98597

I's here, too. I stop by at least once a day. I was quite surprised to see that no one posted for what appears to be a 23-hour period yeterday. Bruce

On the quick take, I would say another Gentleman Bandit has struck again! Going a little deeper, I think there is an enormous difference between a bomb and a gun, psychodynamically. With a gun, you gotta look directly at the indivudal you're shooting. That's intimate, albeit violent. With a bomb however, the intimacy is diffused. It's like the differnce between a group hug (like we do here, verbally) and a kiss. It's hard to kiss 36 people all at the same time, but it's easy to kill them simultaneouly at 10,000 feet with the loaded briefcase. The core relationship, its supporting emotions, and the overall psychological structure of the action are really quite different. I've had people shoot at me, and once a knife into my throat. Never a bomb under my nose, though. Hmmm. Not sure I have a preference. That siad, I do prefer guys who make their killing personal, over corporations and bureaucracies who do so in more subtle ways. I'll take DB over the Federal Reserve any day. Hell, I probably would have helped Danny put his chute on, and bummed the full ride to Mexico.

Jo, please write your life story. Just like you tell it here. Bitten on the neck after Hurricane Ivan and now you call it Duane the Bat, and you're taking rabies shots, too. It's all so good. So fresh, unique and authentic. "Vampire Love Lasts Forever" - that's your title!!!! Okay, so you can't place Duane on the plane or in a chute, just yet. So what! You've got a great story, and you're part of it, and so is your telling of it. Will Ckret love it? Hardly. Will he revamp the FBI because of it. Well, miracles do happen.... C'mon, take your book deals and your movie deals and buy us all a plane tix to celebrate with you in Hawaii, or Florida, etc. Or hell - Clark County, Washington. But not Ariel; their Tavern gives me the creeps. .....in the meantime, pass me another pina colada, will you sweetie.

Just a thought. Some species of wasps have "tongues" proboscus, (whatever), that are up to one-inch long. They are present in the PNW and feed on larvae and such. Here in WA they bore into the wooden tubes that Mason bees plant their eggs. I've seen the holes. They are the diameter of a very fine needle and can penetrate the hardest of woods. I don't know if these long-tongued wasps scavenge in the earth, but over half the bees and wasps in WA live in the earth, so.....

I concur.

so, he was a chain smoker., nervous internalising type, calm exterior, inner tourmoil depressive personality disorder near the end of his rope. Decided it was worth the risk. So he did target the flight. Planned ahead. Saw an opportunity. No narcissist. Desperate. Might as well draw up a profile of half the people working in WA at the time. Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them. Georger, remember, half the people in WA have someone waiting for them when they come home, or call the cops if they don't. DB didn't have that.

Georger- Vat! You rootin' for da Nedderelanz basaboll team, too! You rock!