masterrig

It's just another one of the great myths told about the country. This bit of indoctrination usually come sometime around Thanksgiving. If anything, the country was mostly founded for profit motives. Weren't the first settlers in this country persecuted back in their 'native' country for religious beliefs? As for the 'profit' part... I don't think they had any idea what they were in for. They were on the run. Chuck

I just mumbled through 'indivisible' till one day I got it right and really blurted it out. The whole class looked at me like 'what the heck'. I turned down the volume after that. You just had to remind me of that! Chuck I think I said indivisidable til I was in second grade. Chuck

Thank you! You really went all-out and I appreciate it. I understand much better, now. I just wanted to add... In grade and high school and even in some of my college classes, we were told that the founding fathers, had a real struggle getting things set-up for our country. They saw the necessity for keeping church and state separate yet, they based laws on the ten commandments and etc. We were told too that the founding fathers did not want anyone to get the idea that this was some kind of religous settlement but rather, a place where all could, if they chose, practice their religous beliefs without penalty or persecution. On the other hand, people didn't have to believe in a supreme being if, they didn't want to. Since then, I've learned of a 'strong' Masonic influence due to the fact that many of the founding fathers were Free Masons. Some of those influences show-up on our currency as well as the lay-out of our nations capitol. Pretty interesting stuff. Chuck

Well, every couple of years somebody does bring it up. It's usually one of the 10% of people in the US that doesn't believe in god and thinks the phrase has no place in an official government "oath". Personally, I kind of think they're right. I'm not certain Reagan is quite as responsible for the fall of the Soviet Union as some folks in the US make him out to be. I think a lot of it had to do with the amazing restraint Gorby showed in dealing with the fall of the fall. Contrast and compare that with how Tiananmen Square went down. Good point! As for the 'under God' part... if, I'm not mistaken, our nation, it's laws, constitution and etc., are based on Christianity. Probably some Masonic thinking thrown-in for good measure. I don't have a problem with God being mentioned. The way I see it, it's like anything else... one doesn't have to go along with it. What about the 'rights' for those who chose to recognise the 'under God' part? Chuck

We dove under our desks when the sirens went off during the cold war. We used that fun experience as a segway to learning about the red scare, communism, and the changes to the pledge. I'm a bit surprised that someone hasn't tried to take the 'under God' part out of our Pledge!? Thanks to Ronald Reagan, kids today don't have to dive under their desks... unless, it's because of a 'drive-by'! Chuck

I just mumbled through 'indivisible' till one day I got it right and really blurted it out. The whole class looked at me like 'what the heck'. I turned down the volume after that. You just had to remind me of that! Chuck

It was just about the time that 'one nation under God' was added that we started to recite the pledge. A couple years later, Russia invaded Hungary and the threat of 'atomic war' was quite real. We'd have 'air raid drills' and have to crawl under our desks. I have no idea how many times I banged my head on that desk! I hated those drills! Chuck

I do think that children should be exposed to some of the reasoning behind the pledge throughout elementary school, to give them exposure to it, as well as the tools to think about it in age-appropriate ways. If they always have a choice, they probably won't say it. Most kids won't go to church if not forced as well. That's fine with some folks

I really admire the way you've been able to think about the topic on this thread. It's a rare occurrence in this Forum when a person comes into a topic with one idea, states it and then not only rethinks his position, but actually states that publicly. A lot of times there is far more to a story or idea than what people initially see in it. The headlines grab people in a way that is emotional, but if they can stop and think about what's really going on, sometimes they can see the weirdness of the position to begin with. I appreciate what you said. I was just raised-up to keep an open mind. This just got me to thinking. Some things we just take for granted and our Pledge of allegiance shouldn't be. Just like our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. We have a tendency to take things for granted and that's not a good thing. At some point in time, you just might not have it any more. Chuck

First, I think kids should say the PoA at the beginning of the school day because it binds them together in the spirit of nationalism. I really believe that kids should be exposed to the Pledge, learn it and break it down and understand it. I really wonder if, reciting the Pledge on a daily basis, doesn't get like eating bacon and eggs every day for breakfast. Eventually, a kid is going to want a bowl of Fruit Loops. Make sense? Second, I believe that nationalism is anachronistic and is being discouraged at every political opportunity. I think, the idea of nationalism has been left-up to us as individuals. I believe, I's seen more nationalism since 9-11. We may not like the idea of Iraq and Afghanistan but, we are supporting our troops. Not like the Viet Nam era. Third, I believe the goal of our government is to create the North American Union with Canada and Mexico. I tend to agree with you on this one. That's just the 'almighty dollar' rearing it's ugly head. I see the effects of NAFTA here in my area. I just think, the politicians are just going about it wrong. Some states are welcoming the 'super highways' through their state. Here, we don't want them. Fourth, as a former Taoseno and NM resident, I recall the state motto from one of their first senators, Chuck

As an adult, I feel quite strongly about our Pledge. An organization I belong to, opens each monthly meeting by saying the Pledge and a short prayer. That really means something to me. As an adult, I've realized that as a kid... I didn't understand it and I didn't 'feel' it. I would imagine, it's not much different for kids today. We have a freedom of choice. I can see where kids should have the right to choose whether or not to say the pledge. I doubt, they'll grow-up any less patriotic. Chuck

When you understand what it is that you are pledging and mean what you are saying? That makes sense. Wouldn't mean anything if one's heart wasn't in it. I got to thinking about something else in regard to reciting the Pledge. As far back as I can remember, this country has been involved in some kind of war or conflict, somewhere in this world. Could it be, our politicians were going to see to it that our children were going to be patriotic, by golly? All school children would recite the Pledge of Allegiance and it's just not been questioned!? That we would recite it with 'vigah'! Chuck

Does it? (I'm not being funny, its a genuine question) I can understand as a adult who has a choice then it would be a display of patriotism, but as a child if you have to do it every day is it not simply something that you have to say and do in a mindless fashion. After all didn't Lind, Mc Veigh and others of their ilk say the pledge five days a week for years? I later posted that, after thinking about it and for basically the same reasons you cited... what's the sense? I questioned the fact that my initial response was probably 'knee-jerk'. When is the right time? Is there a right time to recite the Pledge? Chuck

Kids have always had that choice. I've never heard of a school that makes kids recite the pledge - especially in today's pc society. Freedom works both ways. If a kid is being taught that he/she shouldn't take the pledge, so be it. Like it or not, that's what America is about. Patriotism is an option that comes with freedom, not a requirerent of it. I've been thinking about this as I read responses and I've realized that we started our school day reciting the pledge. Did we really understand what we were saying? Did we really 'feel' it? Probably not. I think we looked at it as something we 'had' to do. Why do it at all? It's probably a good thing to know as being a part of being a citizen but, why recite it every day? After a short time, it becomes redundant. My initial reaction when I first heard the news story was... WHAT? Possibly, I just made a 'knee-jerk' reaction. Maybe, it should'nt be recited at all. When is the right time to say the Pledge? Chuck

Quade brought-up a good point in regard to reciting the Pledge being just a rote process. Come to think about it, that's about the way it got for me in grade school. I didn't really think about what I was saying. I just joined-in. Hmmmmm... Chuck

I never said you did. I was simply pointing out the fact that many of the greatest patriots this country ever had lived well before "The Pledge" was even conceived. There are many ways to be patriotic without having to put on a show. Most elementary school children have no idea what they're even saying when they recite it. How is that being patriotic? It's not. It's simply reciting words by rote like a parrot. And that's why I gave you mine. O.K. I understand and see your point. I appreciate it. Ya' really got me thinking, now! Chuck

So, what you're saying is that before the "Pledge" people weren't patriotic or unable to show it? I'm also curious if you think during the revisions it became more or less patriotic? I also find it fascinating that somehow people think pledging allegiance to a symbol of a country is somehow more patriotic than respecting the the Constitution which actually defines the country. The students already have the right to not recite if they choose. That's guaranteed by the Constitution. I re-read what I wrote and I'm having a hard time finding where I said that before the pledge that people were un-patriotic. You sure read an awful lot in what little I said. I just feel what I said. If, someone doesn't want to say the pledge, so be it. As you said, they have that right. The purpose of my post was to get 'opinions'. Chuck

I just heard on our local news, where the Secretary of Education in New Mexico wants to leave reciting the Pledge of Allegiance up to students. Students would have a choice as to whether or not, they wish to recite 'The Pledge.' I'm just curious what those of you out there think of this idea. Personally, I'm not in favor. Simply because, reciting the Pledge of Allegiance shows patriotism to our country and pride in these United States. Chuck

I'm... speechless! Chuck

subtitled... 'Here... hold my beer and watch this!' Bwa-hahahahahahaha... Chuck

I sure hope, they had a good time. Such tranquil surroundings. Chuck

Looks like one o' them Corona commercials. I'll be honest... I read all the previous posts before I opened the pix! Hey! We know you! Chuck

The "I don't need no stinkin' coffee mug!" was a dead give-away. Chuck

Where ever you are, Happy Birthday! Whatever you you do... have fun! Chuck

Now you're talkin! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Chuck