Hooknswoop

I think what everyone is saying is that they don't know of a fix for the Vector II reserve flap. The only thing I have seen done is a rubber band placed around the two upper flaps to keep the reserve flap from coming open. I don't know how much I like that option. Some rigs simply were not made w/ freeflying in mind, or were made before freeflying became so popular. You might want to consider belly flying until the means to obtaining a more free-fly friendly rig become available. Hook

1300 jumps in 11 years, is 118 jumps/year under an elliptical at 1.26 wingloading. How many jumps in the last 6 months? How many jumps on the Stiletto? How many cutaways? There are different types of experience that numbers just don't express. The recommended minimum decision altitude is 1800 ft. Deploying a Stiletto at 2000, makes an 1800 ft decision altitude impossible. By the time the canopy opens 1400 ft +/- and begins to spiral in line twists, there is little time to take action. I had a cutaway Saturday. Normal deployment, stowed slider and released my brakes. Only one brake released, the other had the finger trap for setting the brakes locked on the toggle. Yanked once, twice, dropped everything, grabbed my handles, cutaway, pointed my reserve PC skyward and fired off the reserve. Pro-Track reads 3200 ft deployment altitude. We broke off the 3 way at 5,000 ft. I pulled after tracking at about 4,200 ft. I intended to pull a little extra high (than my normal 3,000-3,500ft) because it was my first jump at a new DZ, and yes, I bought beer. Pro-tracs round off Deployment altitudes on the display, but will give the exact speed and altitude that it stopped recording when down-loaded to Jump-Track. So an indicated 100 ft deployment altitude could be as low as 51 ft. I have a jump that indicates 100 ft deployment, but on Jump-Track shows a 57 ft deployment altitude. I wasn't in free-fall, my pro-tack can't tell the difference between my canopy ride and free-fall. Glad he made it. Hook

“I started learning under an old sabre 170. I'll tell you that a few time that is what saved my ass (god did i hit hard).” I believe that had you waited until you were a better/more experienced canopy pilot under a canopy more suitable to high performance landings, you wouldn’t have hit at all. Yes, a low turn under a 170 is painful and even worse under a smaller canopy, but not hitting the ground doesn’t hurt at all. "A longer recovery arc is not necessarily a "forgiving" feature. If we're talking about being able to build up speed at a higher altitude and maintain it, then yeah, I guess so. But a longer recovery arc requires input if you initiate a little low; it doesn't "pull you out" on it's own as quick" The shorter recovery arc "doesn't "pull you out" on it's own as quick" meaning in order to hook it, you have to initiate the turn lower. A longer or _shorter_ recovery arc requires input if you initiate it a little low. I looked up some stats and 4 PPPB competitors have almost completely “High Performance Canopy” jumps (# Jumps/# High Performance Canopy Jumps): 3700/3500 7000/6900 3000/2800 7000/6900 These guys are very aggressive and got started on high performance canopies early in their skydiving career. Only 100-200 non-high performance canopy jumps each. They have also suffered injuries. My personal standard is, ”If you don’t stand it up, it didn’t count”. Anybody can go buy a tiny canopy and hook it downwind in 60-mph winds and set a new world record for the longest swoop. So the record goes to guy willing to take the biggest risk of getting injured. I can’t compete with that attitude. I am not willing to accept a high degree of risk in my landings. I don’t wear moto-cross pants to protect myself on landing, because I don’t fall down. This thread has developed into 2 discussions: 1) Is it better to “snap” hook or carve? My opinion: Do what works best for you and you can do consistently. Be safe. 2) Is it a good idea for the average skydiver to start hook turning, either carves or snaps, large canopies? My opinion: No. I have jumped large and small canopies. I have hooked, snap and carve, large and small canopies. I feel that the short recovery arc of larger, lightly loaded canopies is simply too short and a small mistake will result in hitting the ground or planing out too high and having an “ankle burner” of a landing. Large canopies can teach a jumper a lot about how to fly canopies that can be applied to smaller, higher performance canopies later. The vast majority of hook turners do not wear moto-cross pants and hook it downwind in medium+ winds for more distance, landing on their butts intentionally for that extra few feet. They do not pop up their canopies 20+ feet in the air to come down on a target for points. The majority of high performance canopy pilots swoop at their DZ’s on weekends and have fun. They swoop for the pure thrill of surfing across the ground at high speed. Can canopy pilots learn from pilots that attend competitions, especially the ones that do well? Yes, of course. The same as a 4 way team can watch AZ Airspeed’s videos and learn. But a new or even experienced 4 way team will probably turn more points if they don’t attempt some of the incredible moves Airspeed pulls off. There are a bunch of outstanding canopy pilots out there, not all of them go to competitions. Hook

Sink- What has been your canopy progession (the canopies you have jumped, the number of jumps on each canopy and your performance under those canopies). What training canopy training have you recieved? Hook

When you are a full time instructor, want you want isn't one of your two options, jump or quit. Did I like taking bug passengers? No. Did I have a choice? Not really. I have never had a student injured though, AFF or tandem. I would always picture "Master Blaster" from Mad Max and laugh. Hook

I've taken some BIG passengers on tandems using the eclispe tandem system. I weigh 160lbs. The gear weighs about 45 lbs, so that leaves about 320 lbs of student. Hook

"nooo....he meant take the slider off and put a diaper on it." Oops, my fault. I cut a hole in the slider, I'll try that first. Then I'll try reading posts slower :-) Hook

"???? c'mon...try it " I did. Check out, "No Top Skin; Results" Hook

">I don't know of any big canopies that have a long recovery arc, especially at a light wing loading I think part of this is also confusing the meaning of "big". A large canopy to me is something like a 190, not a 288 Manta. We have some jumpers with a couple of thousand skydives that have proven to me that a 190 can have as long of a revocery arc then a 150 with the same person under it if it is flown properly. Thats the key.. properly. Most jumpers never use the full arc, they cut it off buy doing too fast/quick of a turn. A Carving/diving turn can recover longer on a biger canopy then a fast snap riser on a smaller canopy." Me under a Safire 149 has a longer recovery arc than me under a Safire 189 all other things being equal. Being flown properly the recovery arc will be longer on the same type of canopy if a person downsizes. If I fly a 190 then a 150, the 150 will have the longer recovery arc of the two. >VX is a good canopy to start learning hook turns on I know of a few people that if they want to load a canopy to the 1.4-1.6 you want them to, they are limited to crossbraced or a limited selection of canopies. So they might be starting out on a FX..... I didn't say a VX is a good canopy to learn on BTW. I don't understand how in order to get a 1.4 to 1.6 wing loading someone would have to jump a cross braced canopy. If some one is very small, I would recommend a lighter windgloading, say 1.2 to 1.4 to learn hook turns at. Hook

Thanks Zen, but isn't that what i said? :-) Hook

"Heres the thing... If I was to get a canopy at a 1.6 wing loading, we are talking I'd need something 107-120ish sized. Thats a little pocket rocket around our area. With winter and the shortend jumping season I could'nt stay current enough on it to stay alive and uninjured. " Then don't get one. If someone can't jump often enough to learn enough to downsize, then they shouldn't be learning hook turns. Hook turns are not for everyone. "Living where the climate allows for a more constant temperature and favorible weather allows people to beable to progress to a smaller canopy in theory faster since they see similar conditions every time. In the course of a week I went from jumping in 75-85 degrees and no wind to 48-50 degrees and a 5-12 wind and sleet. Under a new smaller canopy thats a lot to learn with the increased airspeed from the canopy." I think it has more to do w/ currency, conditions change quite a bit, even in TX FL and SC. "I know people that are loading the same sized canopy as my 1.2:1 on a 150 at up to 1.7:1 on the same sized canopy. They have plenty of recovery arc and any modern canopy, square or rectangular, should have enough recovery arc to keep a heads up jumper in control of the situation. Advanced Diablo pilots do 180-270's sub 200 feet sometimes. Its the design of the canopy. Some canopies have a short recovery arc no matter the loading and other have a Long arc even at light loadings. The Vengence comes to mind here..." I think a 270 degree hook at sub 200ft is asking for trouble. Too little margin for error. Like I said, recovery arc is determined by the canopy and the wingloading. Long and short recovery arcs is subject to interpretation. "Point being, big and light is'nt a bad thing if the canopy is designed with an arc, and if its not thats still not a bad thing. It just means you have to learn the canopy better then the rest of the pilots on the doubles before moving up to 15's then 30's then 45's then 90's over the course of dozens and dozens amd dozens of jumps." Big and light is a good thing. Big, light, and hook turns is a bad thing. I don't know of any big canopies that have a long recovery arc, especially at a light wing loading. By that logic, you could say a VX is a good canopy to start learning hook turns on, it "just means you have to learn the canopy better then the rest of the pilots". I disagree. Hook

...smaller canopies are less forgiving, but they have a longer recovery arc and that makes them safer. “The truth of this concept is dependent on perspective. It would be a very dangerous for someone with 200 jumps that wants to get into high performance landings to read that and think, "well, I guess I should downsize 'cause that'll make me even safer." That mentality was wrong for me when I was at that point, and I still don't completely agree with it. You have to see it from the eyes of a jumper that's just finally fine tuning his basic landing skills and is now interested in high performance landings. He doesn't yet have the timing and skill necessary to start a given speed building turn within 10% of the optimum altitude. “ Like I said, “I believe that if some one can't handle the faster speeds of a 1.4-1.6 (elliptical) wing-loading, they shouldn't be hooking it. Get very comfortable with the canopy, then move to double front risers approaches, then carving 90's, etc.” If someone is just fine tuning their basic landing skills, they shouldn’t be at a 1.4:1 wing-loading, much less thinking about hook turns. I didn’t say “50 jump wonders should buy canopies that put them at a 1.4-1.6 wing-loading and start hooking and they will be safe because of the long recovery arc.” To quote your last statement, “By the time you've progressed enough to be jumping the pocket rocket, your timing and skill should be such that you don't need the large recovery arc for safety purposes (though it's a great to have that buffer, nobody's perfect).” “He probably doesn't even know what the optimum altitude is, for a given turn, for a given turn-rate, for a given density, etc., etc.. This doesn't mean that he can't start building speed for landing. And the fact that his canopy is lightly loaded and has a short recovery arc should be a small concern. A person definitely doesn't have to have a high wing loading to start learning to go fast. And any canopy progression that requires you to have a high wing loading and a large recovery arc to begin with, is dangerous.” Again, agreed. I never suggested a canopy progression requiring a high wing loading and a long recovery arc. A large percentage of jumpers under high performance, loaded up canopies are in over their head. I think jumpers should learn good canopy skills from jump #1 (believe me, most don’t). I think skills learned under a Manta 288 trying to go fast don’t translate well to smaller canopies. I think hook turning a Manta 288 isn’t very safe. “But you're right, if you're going to do tight, steep turns that require absolutely perfect timing, “ If they required absolutely perfect timing, I would have been dead long ago. “you'd better have a canopy with a long recovery arc to save your ass.” The long recovery arc doesn’t save my ass, it increases my safety margin (because I can handle the canopy in the first place) and allows me to land the canopy the way I do. At those speeds, if I had to hook it at 75 ft (like a Manta) I couldn’t react and make small adjustments in time. “But that logic is so fucked up that it pisses me off! Building speed for a swoop landing is not about cranking out a 270 as fast as you can then laying on the double fronts and relying on the recovery arc to keep you safe.” Again. I do not rely on the recovery arc to keep me safe, it does increase MY safety margin. “I'd make a wager that you can nearly achieve the maximum attainable speed on, say a Spectre 190 loaded at 1.2:1, with no more than a 90 degree turn and with creative use of double front risers.” I would take that bet. I can make my Safire dive harder and generate more speed w/ a hard front riser turn to the double fronts. It is all about trading altitude for airspeed. The more altitude I can trade (longer dive) the more airspeed I can generate. Swing out from under the canopy allows for a longer dive. At some point, the “G” force created in the turn elimintate the advantage of swinging out from under the canopy, but that is from a pretty hard turn. Again, I do not recommend someone go buy a canopy and just “Go Big”. Those words I have too often seen take the place of “Hey ya’ll, watch this”, followed closely by “Call 911!”. “A canopy control student could work up to that under supervision in X jumps and have an awesome background to start bigger, faster things on smaller canopies. I wouldn't recommend for anyone to try low turns, precisely timed to the recovery arc of a big canopy; it's too dangerous.” We are in complete agreement here. “I would recommend a turn in which you are constantly capable of changing the rate of turn and the rate of dive e.g. asymmetrical double front risers throughout the entire turn. After perfecting strait in double fronts, of course. Then you can work towards the perfect the timing for using mostly one front riser and doing steeper turns to increase speed, working from smaller turns to larger turns (90 being the most you'd probably need on a larger canopy, if done correctly).” And again here. “You should start with small turns and a big canopy. Many jumps..” I disagree. Anything more than double fronts on a big canopy is too risky, in my opinion. “By the time you're ready to jump something smaller, you should already know how to fly that canopy safely, and land it perfectly, using many inputs in a variety of conditions.” I agree. “And if you're downsizing to get a larger recovery arc, that's great if you're doing it because you want a canopy that's capable of building more speed, but if you're doing it because it's "safer" then you're already in way over your head.” If you can handle the speed and recovery arc, it is safer. Indy 500 cars are incredibly fast and difficult to drive, at least it seems that way to me. But for a professional driver that can handle it, they are very safe cars. Is an Indy car safer than my For Ranger, not for me it isn’t, but for someone that can handle it, it is. Same for canopies, if someone can handle the canopy, a longer recovery arc gives more margin for error. “A person can be taught to do safe, high performance landings, on almost any modern parachute, regardless of size.” Try to teach someone to perform high performance landings on a Manta. I would never do this. Or a Sabre 230. The recovery is just too small. If someone wants to do double front riser approaches under these types of canopies, have at it, but any sort of turning approach is a bad idea in my opinion. “Fast low turns are not necessary and they're dangerous. Small, heavily loaded canopies are dangerous.” Jumping out of airplanes is dangerous and completely un-necessary. Kind of the pot calling the keddle black here. Small canopies and hook turns have the appearance of being dangerous because of the easy access to small canopies by un-prepared jumpers. The argument that most low-turn fatalites are made by “D” licensed, and therefore “experienced” holders is bogus. I’ve seen jumpers w/ 1000+ jumps on 150 ish canopies decide to get a 100is X-braced and hammer in. 1000+ jumps didn’t give them the experience to handle the small canopy. “When you start out, you need to fabricate the large recovery arc by using both front risers.” The recovery arc is what it is. You can get the most dive out of a canopy with the front risers, but recovery arc is set by the canopy and wing-loading. “By the time you've progressed enough to be jumping the pocket rocket, your timing and skill should be such that you don't need the large recovery arc for safety purposes (though it's a great to have that buffer, nobody's perfect).” I can (and have) hooked large canopies, but it is definitely more dangerous than hooking a small canopy. You made my point for me, the longer recovery arc of smaller canopies affords the jumper a “buffer”, or safety margin. I think you mis-understood my previous post. I recommend that if someone wants do learn hook turns, learn everything they can and get very, very comfortable under an elliptical at a 1.4-1.6 wing-loading before getting into hook turns. Hook

It looked like a sniveling canopy, but I couldn't see very much fabris outside of the slider. 4 distinct line groups and a rectangular slider. As for slower openings on canopies w/ the nose cloased off, ya makes sense to me. I've never (unitl I jumped a Crossfire II, best opeing I have ever had) had a canopy open as nice as my FX did, or as bad as my FX did. Hook

"Seems we are having this discussion the 2 of us....No problem, I dont't have discussions every day with someone from the States. " No, a bunch of people are reading, learning and making desicions based on this conversation, information is power. I have landed a Fury 220, twice, on rear risers, at night (don't ask). Stood up the landing both times. A broken steering line may or may not be landable, more than likely, landable. If I had a steering line break on my Safire 189, I would land it. No big deal. It is open, flying, controllable , and landable, why temp fate by cutting it away and using my reserve? I am not afraid to use my reserve, in fact on a couple off recent test jumps I expected to have to use my reserve (turned out I only needed once of the two jumps). I have used my reserve 11 times in 2801 jumps. As for teaching students to land with rear risers, why not? If I can teach someone how to land a Sabre 230 with toggles, then I can teach them how to land it w/ rear risers. I have them practice rear riser turns and flares after a few jumps. Hook

"How small did it pack? How did you deploy it? Also, how did you pack it?" Packed very small, 100ish. Deployed out of a chest mount. Pro-packed it, as much as you can pro-pack it anyway. Hook

"And be careful catching the cutaway stuff under canopy. People have died catching cutaway mains that entangled with their open main." I'm always careful :-) Hook

"Ummm...how about cutting a hole in the slider?" I already did, and will jump it again. Hook

Got out at about 5,000 ft and deployed the no top skin/ribs canopy. It never opened. It didn't even slow me down much. I deployed back to the wind (chest mount) and was in a sort of sit with my legs straight out in front of me while it just sat up there, sniveling away. I rode it for about 2,000 ft, chopped it, deployed my main, caught the mess and headed for the landing area. My best guess is that w/o the nose to catch air and provide inflation/pressurization, the relative wind is blown around the bottom skin by the slider. This would mean that a canopy snivels until the nose catches air and begins to inflate and once it is larger than the slider, bottom skin inflation along w/ pressurization can occur. This would explain some canopies opening w/ snivel, snivel, whack. Hook

" It's a decision that each jumper will have to make when it happens." I suggest making the decision before it happens. Hook

"my bets on an explosive lower surface inflation. " How does the top skin and ribs slow the opening of a canopy? Hook

"I still think it is. They finnish with toggles but there is no reason that you could not slide it out instead. He is also talking about canopies loaded over 2 to 1. For most jumpers it is possible to have a stand up landing on rear risers." Could I land my VX-60 loaded at 3.1:1 with only rear risers? Yes. Would I? Not if I could help it. If I can't make a stand up landing on what I have, time to go to my reserve. Personal choice. I have watched several people attempting rear riser swoops, land on their backs, hard. Straight in under a highly loaded canopy with only rear risers is not going to be a nice landing. Hook

"How will it land? Hopefully without you under it. I wouldn't try landing it, even if it displayed stable flaight characteristics. You have very little lift and much less drag than a round would give...that means hard landing. Maybe too hard." From the origanl post: 4. How will it land? Just kidding on the landing part :-) Hook

"It takes more skill to fly a larger canopy to these extremes then it does to strap your self to a small elliptical canopy that when things goes good flies its self almost, but when one thing is bad... there goes your whole summer in a cast or worse." I have hooked large canopies and small canopies, the smaller the canopy, the easier it is for me to hook it safely. Your'e right that smaller canopies are less forgiving, but they have a longer recovery arc and that makes them safer. It is difficult for me to hook my Safire 189 correctly, i have to start the turn very close to the ground and I have a very small window to start the turn at. The larger the canopy, the slower you fly, and therefore gives you more time to react, but larger canopies also have shorter recovery arcs. Let's say, for easy numbers, you have to start the hook w/ in 10% of the ideal alitude, any lower and you crash, any higher and the canopy planes out too high/loses all it's speed. Let's also say I have to hook my Safire at 150 ft, that gives me from 135 ft to 165 ft, 30 ft of target window. My VX 60 I hook from around 800 ft, that gives me from 680 to 920 ft, 240 ft of target window. 30 ft vs. 240 ft of target window. So it is a trade-off between slow enough to give the pilot time and a large enough target window to give the pilot a chance at hitting it. I believe that if some one can't handle the faster speeds of a 1.4-1.6 (elliptical) wingloading, they shouldn't be hooking it. Get very comfortable with the canopy, then move to double front risers approaches, then carving 90's, etc. Like almost everything in skydiving, it is a trade-off. BTW, I don't hook my Safire anymore, too dangerous at that wingloading. This isn't gospel, but just what I believe, subject to change. Hook

"2) 2000 jumps - highly loaded Velocity - I've never jumped that fast a canopy. In that situation, I would cut the other line, see how the canopy reacted to a rear riser flare, then make my choice." Depending on your altitude, you might not have time for all that, it is amazing how fast you can lose altitude under a small, loaded up X-brace, just a full flight. I teach students how to turn and flare with the rear risers. And I also teach them that each time they jump a new canopy, they should go through all the drills with the new canopy, flat turns, front risers, rear risers, stall, etc. A better time to make a descion on landing a canopy on rear risers is when both steering lines are still intact and you can calmly evaluate how the canopy flares on rear risers. Hook

I just got packing a Clipper 195 (F-111, 9 cell) after cutting off the ribs and top skin. Any predictions on: 1. How will it open? 2. How will it fly? 3. How will it turn? 4. How will it land? Just kidding on the landing part :-) Hook