dudeman17

Robert, I say this with all due respect as constructive criticism. But it shows a flaw in your thinking. You have this... Yet you still assert this... -------- That's exactly what they did.

Song related. Really. (Listen carefully.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmev6cSMOOw

Ha! Who's all old enough that the tune was firmly in your mind before finishing the line...

I'm not a rigger, and it's been a long time, but I had both a Viking and a 70's era belly-band Wonderhog. On the Viking, I seem to remember the two rings, and it also had those square bottom vents. I also remember that it had no outer label. Did the Clouds have one?

I was just referencing the earlier conversation. There was a good picture of a rigger's seal, just thought you might want to see it, that's all.

+ = ----------------------- I can see your joke, but seriously, many military veterans with PTSD find therapeutic value in skydiving. Many of my earliest instructors were Vietnam veterans, and one of them once told me, "Skydiving is the closest thing I can find to being shot at".

Flyjack, if you're interested, there's a good picture of a rigger's seal in this thread: https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/271157-seeking-experienced-opinions-on-an-older-parachute-rig-from-a-storage-unit-auction/

The container looks like a 70's era Wonderhog. Mark, what makes you think it's a copy? The main, the square vents on the bottom make me think Viking Superlite as well. Starfighter, this appears to be the second set of 'auction' gear that you've posted here. How, where, and why are you coming up with this stuff?

Yes it would need to be repacked by a rigger to be legal. In the 80's the repack cycle was 120 days, in the late 60's - early 70's it might have been 90 days. (They have to be inspected and repacked whether they're used or not to be 'in date'.) It was a few years before he got it back, I would imagine that he had replaced the rigs to keep flying. They weren't really all that expensive, especially for a guy with his own mfg. company who flies aerobatics for fun. For Cossey to have packed Hayden's rigs despite their never having met might not be that odd. Hayden might have just had his flight service people handle that for him. (The people who took care of his airplane.) When Haden did get it back... It might not be that odd that he didn't get it packed for a while. Whether it was opened or packed, he might have just put it in a closet until he figured out what he wanted to do with it. He probably already had other ones to fly with. And this rig was part of a notorious world famous caper, so he probably didn't want to use it and risk damaging it. So the question might not be why did it take so long to get it packed, but why did he get it packed twice? When did he donate it to the museum? If that was around '86, the date of the second repack, maybe the museum wanted it opened and repacked, just so they knew exactly what they were getting?

There are indeed a lot of conflicts... -- If the rig on the plane was the one that Hayden got back, the pictures of the card show that the pilot chute (?) numbers are not on it. So the only way they would know those numbers is if they looked at it, which would require them to open the rig. Why would they do that? I dunno, but I can see the FBI tearing into anything they got their hands on. The seal is nothing more than a piece of thread wrapped around one of the ripcord pins and the closing loop (or cone) with a little lead dealybob showing the rigger's ID. It gets easily broken if the ripcord is pulled. Otherwise it's just there to show that the container has not been opened since the rigger closed it. Robert, a very specific question, if you know the answer... Was the container open when Hayden got it back? Yes, when you pull a ripcord it is separate from the rig. Back when mains were ripcord operated, you would keep it (stuff it down your jumpsuit), unless you had a malfunction, then you would toss it to free your hands to perform emergency procedures. These days mains use hand deployed pilot chutes, so there is nothing to hang on to. But reserve ripcords (and these days cutaway handles)... Students are taught to toss them so their hands are free to deal with the reserve opening and get control of it. Experienced jumpers will usually keep them. As for ripcord stops... Having the ripcord smack you in the face would be the least of your concerns. Anything trailing you during a (reserve) deployment can have a nasty habit of snagging your (deploying) canopy. They did cause fatalities, which is why they were banned. I have a comical image in my mind of a pilot, with a rig on, strapped to nothing but a seat, in freefall, screaming "I CAN LAND THIS!!!"

You listed those two sets of numbers as indicating two different rigs. Did you see the conversation 'over there' not long ago, and can you log in to see posted documents? Shutter posted a document describing the rig left on the plane. It listed the '226' set of numbers as that rig, and listed the "60-XXXX' numbers as pertaining to that 'other canopy' in the same rig, the 'integral part' of it, that I surmise must be the pilot chute. If that document is correct, then it would appear that the rig Hayden got back might well be the one left on the plane. It will be interesting if/when the museum lets a rigger open that rig, and see if those numbers are indeed the pilot chute.

Part of my original error was seeing the location of Hayden's ripcord and thinking that it had been modified. If Cossey's statements about a modified ripcord pertained to his own rig, then so be it. In general theory, it would be possible, and not all that unusual, for a customer to ask his rigger for such a modification. Body type combined with the confines of his particular cockpit, and personal preference, might warrant a ripcord mod. Such a mod would have to be performed by a rigger to be legal. It sounds like Cossey made a lot of questionable, conflicting statements. It sounds like he didn't take a lot of people too seriously, and perhaps made off statements to jerk peoples' chains. It seems clear that the FBI got two back rigs from Hayden. It seems less clear, but possible, whether they got any from Cossey, and if so, which ones were actually given to Cooper. A modified ripcord location making for a difficult pull doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Most harnesses are of pretty similar construction. Ripcord handles are generally on the main lift web, that's the part of the harness that goes over your shoulder, down past your ribs, and into the hip juncture. Not really an alternative option for that, just higher or lower. They are all in a pocket, that's what holds them in place. Those pockets were elastic, at some point they became velcro-closed. Most ripcord housings go over the shoulder, and the ripcord is best pulled in a downward fashion. Not many, but some housings come from lower on the side, from about the bottom of your ribs, and the ripcord would be better pulled in an upwards direction. An experienced jumper would note the difference. Someone with no experience wouldn't KNOW the difference. In either case, the user would just note how it is and pull accordingly.

Seriously? I can NOT imagine a mainstream company having parachutes in any kind of coupon book. Skydiving is nowhere near a big enough market to even put a blip on their radar. However, I CAN imagine someone on a drop zone making a JOKE about saving enough coupons for a rig. Skydivers will joke about anything.

I dunno... You could be right, but I can see a scenario where the guy pulls out a pack of cigarettes to have a smoke, makes an offhand joke about the coupons, and the Elsinore guy thinks nothing of it, figures it's an inconsequential part of the conversation, until he learns that Cooper smoked Raleighs and thinks 'oh, yeah'...

So 'laughter is the best medicine', but fun and excitement might not be? Ha! They left out the one thing I've sometimes been curious about - whether there might be a cumulative effect on your innards from thousands of opening shocks.

That's because you jump at a badass drop zone, and Rom runs a great crew at the school. (Now if that old grey haired guy would just come back, but he's being a pussy about the virus or something...) -------- I would also stress tracking. Tracking is a survival skill. If you're about to get your A license and be released 'into the wild', jumping with people who are not instructors/coaches, then your ability to perform a quick, straight track to ensure separation before opening is essential. Also make sure you're doing a good wave-off, and have your coaches show you about 'clearing your airspace' before you pull. When you get your A, look into the Excel Camps that they run every month. They're meant for where you're at. About the hop n pop - Emergency exits are also a survival skill. You can practice it on any jump by making sure you can do a stable exit and quick practice touch. Also, be familiar with the areas you fly over during the climb to altitude, and know where your alternate landing areas are. There is nowhere you fly over that you cannot find a spot to land - a school, a park, a field, the top of a Wal-Mart... "Safety's a skill. Survival's an art." - JS

You don't need willpower or to stock up. If you have a Ralphs/Kroger/whatevertheycallitinyourarea, they make versions of thin mints and Samoa's that are great. They're cheaper, too.

Would there be DNA in somebody's shoe? ------- I wouldn't take those articles to imply that Cossey made, or actually manufactured the chutes. In the one article, it sounds like he made a repair on a pilot chute that he would recognize. In the other article, I would take that as perhaps he assembled the rigs. Generally, the harness/container is one part, and the canopy is another part. They are kind of 'mix & match', that is, you could put whatever canopy into whatever container, as long as the pack volume of the canopy is compatible with the size of the container.

And you have no reason not to. But Hayden wouldn't know what else the FBI was up to. Hayden's story and Cossey's aren't necessarily conflicting. It's possible that the FBI got Hayden's two rigs, and got two more (back rigs) from Cossey, and Cooper ended up with one of each. Just trying to figure a scenario why those numbers don't match. Is he still around? If so, maybe you could ask him if the other serial number matches his other rig. ----- Yeah, most pilots want nothing to do with parachutes. But the FAA requires them for aerobatic flying. I've always thought it was funny, that pilots want nothing to do with rigs, but everyone in any boat is required to have a floatation device. I bet most people can swim on their own better than they can land. He might have thought differently in the event of a structural failure or a fire.

(For the purposes of this conversation, forget the front chutes.) I don't think anyone is suggesting that Cooper was given more than two back chutes. The question is whether the FBI COLLECTED more than two back chutes before giving him two. There are reports that Cossey also gave back chutes, although I realize that his credibility with reporters and researchers is questionable. (In one of the magazine interviews that Flyjack posted a while back, Cossey claimed that he gave back chutes, one of which was a sport rig that would have the D-rings. That might allow Cooper to use the dummy reserve container to hold some of the money.) If one of Hayden's rigs was not actually given to Cooper, that might make it easier for him to get it back from the FBI. ----- Maybe you'll give one as a tip if you ever show up to Elsinore for a jump after your move. I refer to the title...

That's interesting. There is a part number, but no serial number. I would expect there to be a serial number for the whole harness/container assembly, I wonder if that is a part number for that piece of the container. How might you reconcile it? This subject comes up from time to time, and you always state that two rigs were furnished by Hayden, and two were given to Cooper. But Flyjack's info infers two rigs accounted for, so Cooper must have jumped with a third. Do you have a theory? Also... Considering the way the FBI deals with evidence, such as the Amboy chute, do you think the FBI would have given that back to him so easily if that was the one left on the plane? ------------ I'd love to read Ha Ha Ha. Any chance you'd part with one of your copies?

Somewhere on the container (often on the backpad, up against the wearer's back) is a little pocket where the packing card goes. Usually there's a little flap that folds out of it, and that is usually where the container info is. I was speculating 'over there' the possibility that someone might have written the container SN on one report, and someone else might have written the canopy SN on the other. But with the specificity of the info you provide, different size canopies and all, that would appear to not be the case.

Maybe, but... That particular label is for the harness itself. The rig consists of three* major components, the harness*, the container*, and the parachute canopy. They would have separate part #'s, serial #'s, and dates of manufacture. * The harness and container are separate components, but are then sewn together as one unit. They could make a batch of harnesses, then use the same harness type on different container types. That label seems to indicate that it's just for the harness. The other stamped number has a 'P', indicating a part #, and there doesn't seem to be a serial # for it. Somewhere on the container I believe would be another label for the harness/container assembly, and I would expect that to have the serial #. (The canopy is a separate component altogether, and any of a number of canopies could be installed in a rig, as long as the pack volume was compatible with the container size.) Also note that the DOM of the harness is APRIL of '57, while the canopy's DOM is SEPTEMBER of '57. -------- From your previous post... The information lists seem to be from the canopies themselves, and would indeed indicate different rigs. That they were both packed by Cossey on the same day might indicate that those are both of Hayden's rigs. If so, then that supports your original conclusion - If both of Hayden's rigs are accounted for, then what rig did Cooper jump and where did it come from? Also of note from the first post... That picture of the replica rig also shows the ripcord housing going to the left side, not the usual right side. And the ripcord is not routed through the housing, you can see the rc cable and handle stowed under the pack opening bands. Those bands had actual metal coiled springs in them. In early days before soft closing loops, one side flap of the container had metal cones, which would fit through grommets on the other side flap, then the ripcord pins would go through holes in the cones. Sometimes the cones and grommets would not want to separate, causing a 'total' malfunction, where the container did not open. Those spring loaded bands would pull the flaps apart, opening the container.

Do you (or anyone else) remember "Better a transient than me..."?

I always liked this one... The Gear Scaries. Sometimes my gear scares me It's a long way up To be hanging from strings and rags So I think really hard And figure it all out again And everything goes fine For a while And then I go do something Scary again Like watch someone open Do I really believe that? I better Because it's my turn now I just keep going through the process Because I started when I was too Young to know any better And now I can't stop. Skratch Garrison ,