RhondaLea

Apart from the PA, you have two different issues here. One is that a fetus develops certain senses earlier than the 38th week of pregnancy. The other is that a creature that cannot see, feel or hear is human. How so? Because it was born of a human mother? Because it has a reasonable facsimile of a human body? There's a lot more to humanity than that or we would be establishing refuges for anencephalic babies right and left. What does it mean to be human? We kill animals that have the intelligence of a three-year old without a thought, and you want to protect something that doesn't even approach that capacity because it was produced by a human being? Are you going to start nurturing tumors too? But I guess since I'm an idiot too, none of this really matters, eh? rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

So now my rape victim is a coke addict? C'mon bill, you can do a lot better than that. That was downright lazy. I think women have an obligation to bring the healthiest possible baby into the world. I really did try not to smoke, I really did try to eat healthy, I really did try to take care of myself. Most women do the same, with varying results. A few women are too self-centered to care, and we end up with defective babies. I don't know if it's possible to legislate against self-centeredness (although sometimes I wish it were). How in the hell do you enforce it? And too, I was in a bad situation when I was pregnant, and although I did what I could to mitigate it as much as possible, Beck was routinely flooded with my stress hormones. So what do we do? Demand that pregnant women be given a specific type of environment in which to live for the duration? This whole pregnancy thing is getting awfully complicated. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

It has been a while since my logic and reason class, but I think fallacies are part of your argument for abortion rights. Tu quoque is also a fallacy. I'm not arguing for abortion rights. That's the point you missed earlier, and the one you continue to miss. The convolutedness (is that even a word?) of all this has to do with what I believe is the proper role of the government in the lives of the people, and what I believe one person has the right to decide for another person. Let me just tick off a couple of things in no particular order: I was once in the position of having to decide whether I was going to carry my pregnancy to term. To me, she was a baby, not a collection of cells. I made my choice, and it is evidenced by the fact that she has posted in one of these two threads. I would not presume to make this choice for another woman. That said, my gut feeling (having nothing to do with logic) is that a baby becomes a baby a whole lot sooner than 38 weeks. (But I wouldn't go to the great lengths we now go to keep a premature infant alive either. There are many good reasons for allowing nature to take its course.) Continuing with my feelings, the first trimester is the time for having an abortion, if an abortion is to be had. Given that some women don't even know they're pregnant until later (some of us do continue to bleed), I would probably say that if a woman has the stomach for it, five (or even six, depending on the situation--i.e., a defective baby) months might be a reasonable cut off. I couldn't do it unless the amnio came back bad (in which case, I would do it quickly), but I can see the need. Women who give birth 4 months early (20 weeks pregnant or less) are considered to have had a miscarriage. Later births are considered premature. That seems reasonable to me as a rule of thumb, but I still can see reasons to make exceptions. I think partial birth abortion is a neutral name for a heinous practice, although I might back off that if you told me the infant in question had certain abnormalities. I believe that the decision to have (or not have) an abortion is not subject to a general principle that is easily expressed, and to try to express it in the form of a law does a disservice to us all. To make it even more personal, in a choice between my daughter's health and well-being (mental, physical or both) and that of a prospective grandchild I do not even know, I would choose my daughter every time. I believe that the life-already-in-existence has priority, and that is why I believe that the government and all the busybodies who don't have enough to do need to butt the hell out once and for all. Now, you can reach whatever conclusion you'd like about where I stand on the issue. Just know that there are a lot of things I think people ought to do/not to do, but I would not presume to be the one to tell them they can't do the wrong thing (IMO) or must do the right thing (IMO). I have enough to do keeping true to my own set of ethics without minding yours. In other words, I do have an opinion on this issue, but I stop short of imposing it on anyone else. I think "the public" calls that pro-choice. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Then how come it keeps calling me? Obviously your phone is broken, Jef. Better get it fixed. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Well, I can imagine three possible scenarios that might apply to a rape victim who cannot obtain a legal abortion. One is that she might seek a backalley abortion, thus risking her life. Another is that she might simply kill herself. The final one is that some women who have apparently problem-free pregnancy die as the result of birth complications. Actually these apply to any pregnant woman who can't obtain a legal abortion, don't they? rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

My phone doesn't accept text from Michigan. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

One guy around here is in obvious need of a cucumber. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

What about the value of the life of the rape victim? Does the life that already exists have any priority over a cluster of cells? Or does her total value lie in the fact that she's the incubator for a life she did not want and did not ask for? Or...hmmm...how much of a limit do you want? When's the cutoff? And if you don't consider it murder for a rape victim at that point, do you also not consider it murder for someone who simply doesn't want to be pregnant? rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

You clearly don't belong here, then. No, no! Don't chase him away. I'm in love with what he just wrote. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

No one hates you, Sarah. Or at least, no one I know does. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I think you've just overcome my objection to vibrators. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

The fetus can have rights without saying the rights of the fetus supersede the rights of the mother. What those rights are remains to be seen. Let's stop talking about "what the public thinks" and "what other people think." If you speak for just yourself, that'll be fine. Well, only with the permission of the people, I thought. Goverment has started overreaching a little, IMO. The government also seems to have the right to mandate killing. After all, it's not murder if they give you a gun and ship you to Iraq. Words can get mighty slippery at times. It is killing by definition. The question is: is it murder? I think if you're going to be so cautious of one fallacy, you might want to consider giving at least passing thought to all the rest. I was trying for an analogy, not for the argument you tried to attribute to me. You missed the point. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I hope you remember this the next time the government threatens to control your rights in another area. What's near and dear to your heart? What happens when the government comes in and tells you what you can and cannot do relating to whatever that happens to be? rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

He can't separate the two arguments, John, even when the two parts are submitted as being separate. I mentioned something about there being more than one issue earlier in the thread, but it was ignored. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

You forgot to mention that you're not the only one who's poking at your being called "belligerent." I can think of several people who deserve that label, but you're not even in the Top 100. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

You're no fun any more Yes. I am. Hugs and kisses, rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Given the choice, I'd rather have real debate than fuck with my opponents. Fucking with my opponents is reserved for when I have lost hope of any real debate. I just enjoy the art of crafting an argument, but this forum makes me a little lazy because I'm dealing with so much that's just total bs. I can make some pretty good arguments against the issues I normally argue for, but I'm afraid that no one would see the point (although I may start doing that, just because what I'm doing now is kinda boring--at least it would give me some interesting opponents). rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I'm glad the news is good, Chris. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Why would they? This isn't about "gay," it's about taking money for sex. I can't see how these guys could've been any dumber. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Cocheese? Didn't see that coming. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Well, I guess I know what *not* to buy you next Christmas! I hope to settle on a vibrator substitute long before next Christmas. If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I don't like vibrators. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

Here's something less technical: http://www.neuroskills.com/whattoexpect-contents.shtml And this is the main page from whence it came: http://www.neuroskills.com/index.shtml If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

I don't really think that Jamil would buy PJ cheap beer as a peace offering, though. Does that make PJ a beer abuser? rl cc: PJ If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

That is wonderful. You've outdone yourself, 'Shell. rl If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb