georger

Things get rounded in nature ...

Exactly. Ships pass by all the time creating waves that break on the shoreline moving debris around. The direction of movement/flow is south to north, including during high tide. The whole upper active layer of the beach is creeping north. Presumably, depending on how the Ingram bills were deposited, the bundles were once on the surface then covered over - without being noticed! How could that happen with so many people always on that beach unless it happened quickly? The Fazios thought the money was brought up with the tide or because of the tide, then covered over in the same process ... the Fazios have always pointed out that the bills were found 'on the high tide line'. Where is the rest of the money? Why wasnt all of the money found on TBar?

Why dont you take this up with Tom Kaye ? Try fitting the Ingram parts back together ... what do you see ?

a tumbling end over end, This is simple stuff.. I wasnt there to see it.

Yes. The Ingrams could have damaged their find and probably did to some extent. However Pat said they were as careful as possible whatever that means. We just dont know. The overall condition of the bills looks good and well preserved. There is damage to some of the groups that is clearly natural vs human. This is why I URGED the FBI to send the money to the Treasury Forensic Lab for an EXPERT OPINION! Apparently the FBI Agents decided they saw no need for that ... who knows. The Treasury Forensic Lab has experts who have dealt with found money for generations. They have a vast data base. To have turned down their expertise was like asking a butcher to diagnose your heart problem and do your surgery, literally! So many claims and opinions have been stated about the dredge I cant even comment about that ... which may be lucky for me! That issue may have been destroyed beyond recovery or belief, by competing claims and competing interests so passionate and certain that ...... I cant even remember it all!

Finding Cooper does not depend on the money at Tena Bar be explained.

Yeah, simple physics suggests any abrasive force from rubbing along sand would take out the rubber bands along with the rotten edges of the bills. I don’t see how that could even be argued. It’s obvious. ... You saw this happening? The simplest explanation is someone buried it at Tena Bar. All it requires is a reason, there are no other obstacles. The other transport methods have so many contingencies, it strains the imagination. You obviously havent looked at the Ingram parts. Take a look at those groups of bills some day. No rush.

Things get rounded off in nature, especially where water flows. Its called erosion. Has nothing to do with bundles tumbling end over end. Look at rocks in a creek or river bed. Moreover the amount of material loss and the rate of erosion is a function of force and time. In Tom's early work he estimated 1/8th inch per year on one bill. Learn something about erosion. The image of bundles tumbling end over end is nonsense - laughable. In the case of the Ingram money there are other examples of abrasion, cuts, tears etc in addition to common erosive rounding. The loss of material around the ends and edges of these bills is not the whole story of this money.The Ingrams said the money was pulled out of the sand in 3-4 parts. The bills were not a single aligned evenly aligned mass of bills. Tom provides a graph showing the twisting of several bills on one axis ... Simple theories like 'end over end tumbling' does not begin to explain the history of this money. Damage apparent on the twelve groups of money suggests the money experienced several destructive events before the bills settled into one place and began eroding naturally. That is one of the reasons I favor a destructive dredging scenario prior to the bills settling as a group on the beach where they were found. But this theory could explain some of the damage seen in these groups of bills, in addition to the edge erosion and rounding of the bills. Keep in mind, the flow of water and sand at TBar is south to north! This money could have moved some distance from its original place of origin to finally be noticed just below the upper active sand layer identified by Palmer where the Ingram kids were digging. There is no credible account of Cooper money being seen at TBar prior to the Ingram incident. These bills tumbling end over end on the bottom of the river to wind up high on the beach at TBar is total nonsense, and a joke!

Cooper indicated that Minneapolis, MN was very nice country. You can twist this any way you will. When you twist this you place your own personal stamp on it casting whatever doubt or complication you wish to sow! This is a device you use to criticise others. All of which has nothing to do with what Cooper said or the dialogue that was going on between Cooper and Tina. Any discussion about this becomes impossible. I guess its a control device you have developed to take over discussion boards! I have things to do - in the real world...

Cooper said, "Minnesota is nice country" Cooper did not say: Hi! Thanks so much for having me. Tornadoes are not a common occurrence in Greenland. While Greenland experiences a variety of severe weather, including blizzards and strong winds, tornadoes are extremely rare. The island's climate and geography are not conducive to the formation of tornadoes, which typically require warm, moist air colliding with cooler, drier air, a condition more common in lower latitudes Some day people will figure this out ... with the help of their psychologists.

Nonsense. There was no 'other crime' involving Cooper bills. Today is Monday by consensus. Likewise the Ingrqam find is money given to Cooper.

Answer. The peanut disappears from under thimble #1, into your hand when no one is looking ?

No doubt there were company negotiations about this - no pilot wants a hijacking on his record! But the pilots could not possibly know everything that went on in the background. It took years for the crew to put it all together. Did any of the crew ever read the full Transcript? Probably not until years later if then. The crew would have been at a real disadvantage knowing what to say or not to say. Meanwhile Cooper is running around somewhere in the world. No guarantee that Cooper wont strike twice or even show up at someone's door some night! I imagine Rat was looking over his shoulder ... for years? Meanwhile the crew have their lives to try and live with the hijacking behind them? It is never behind them! Like a bad divorce... you are living the consequences every day for the rest of your life ? Something like that . . . Scott taciturn. Good description. Rat the opposite. I think Rat got put in a very bad position ... with constant demands on him. My sense is Rat never fully recovered! Likewise Tina ?

Rat has never struck me as being very bright, frankly. Highly conflicted. Emotional and maybe even an emotional basket case during part of the the hijacking was in progress. A true-blue company man through and through. Sworn to secrecy (by God!). An idiot about some things..... a damned fool at times. I base this not just on Rat's erratic behaviors during and after the hijacking, but in conversations he's had with people in the past. It doesnt even surprise me that he would overlook or even dismiss a 'bump'. Bump Shmump! Who cares! That is until the Flight Engineer drilled into Rat's consciousness. Then the argument about reporting it or not! Then more uncertainty and arguing on top of that before Rat finally radios it in. Rat has never taken any responsibility for that ... its below his pay level! It's not what Company guys do, on the premise: what good would it do ? Rat was very angry when a mere passenger hijacked HIS plane. Rat suggested taking the guy out over the ocean and . . . Rat asked ________ where the plane pistol was while the passenger was just settling into his seat. Rat was scared shitless that the guy would parachute and leave a live ticking bomb to blow everyone up. The FAA Psychiatrist may have had something to do with generating that fear. We have literally nothing about the conversation that passed back and forth between Scott and Rataczak. It is what it is.

And you are speculating ... we/you do not know! Read Dudeman's post.

Precisely.

Cooper agreed on Reno. They are headed toward Reno by some route. Cooper can look below the plane and know he is not over the ocean! Why complicate the obvious. Cooper did not complicate what the pilots were doing. He saw nothing to protest. He got ready and jumped. He never questioned where the plane was! Cooper has a bomb! He can ask for and get anything he wants ... Cooper is in full control. He is satisfied with what he is seeing/experiencing ... and they have yet to cross the Columbia!

He had zero foreknowledge of the location of the plane when he jumped. Nonsense. The crew flying the plane knew where it is. Whenever and wherever the hijacker jumps he will fit into that dynamic. Cooper has played a role setting that condition. The plane is flying south on V23 carrying Cooper as cargo! All other considerations are superfluous except as to the times and locations of Cooper's actions! Cooper will soon be on the ground and one of his needs will be to find out where he is ...

You certainly have a unique approach to the Cooper case. How did Cooper feel about onion rings ?

You may have Cooper's psychology wrong ? From your viewpoint he changed his mind. Are you saying he is not allowed to change his mind ? People say things then do something else all the time. Especially during crises. Cooper is under no compulsion to do as you say today! You are 50 years late. Next lets pipe you in to Cooper so he can follow your instructions based on your theory of him! Me? I prefer to let Cooper be Cooper. He can and will do whatever he wants.

Why would Cooper demand a flight to Mexico with no stops in US. To keep law enforcement off his back. The problem with that theory is "time" becomes a real factor. Anything can happen. The Air Force can even decide to shoot the plane down! Cooper's best strategy for escape is a quick in-and-out before LE can even organise. LE and the pilots wont have time to even know where or when Cooper has bailed! Instinctively Cooper takes that route. Its a good tactical decision. A flight to Mexico with no stops in US may be a strong political stance by a guy with a grudge to express, but it is not a sound tactical escape decision. If Cooper does not know where he is he does have a sense of time, and he can see he is over land. He knows he is somewhere over Washington or Oregon and he can see the lights of cities coming up ahead. By identifying Tacoma from the air he has already told us he knows the geography of Washington. That is a given. The lights he is seeing ahead in the air will give him bearings on the ground. The tactical issue for Cooper is time. Staying two steps ahead of anything LE can do. Cooper's decision to bail NOW has given him time, the most precious asset he needs right now. Cooper jumps and vanishes into history - literally! Cooper has used the opportunities available to him to write a page into the history books. Cooper knows. It is ourselves guessing fifty years later! By that standard Cooper escaped ... and won. Claims of a Bayesian analysis are superfluous. (not real) Cooper is a man with priorities. Escape is a higher priority to Cooper than the money. That's what the bomb is all about. I think Cooper would prefer destruction to being caught. That may be why money was ever found on a sandbar miles from his LZ years later.

When he jumps nobody at Portland knows where he is. Portland-Vancouver is a large area! LE is spread thin and looking for him up near Lake Merwin! What he has against him is: he is a lone traveler. If he is seen with a bag that might be suspicious.Moreover he has to cross the rail lines where there are hobos and other dangerous ilk. A curious hobo is his worst case encounter ... he has to get transportation back to somewhere asap. Cooper is no longer in control and is vulnerable. There really is no place he can hide for very long. Too many people and too much activity. Somehow he vanishes while a token of the money is left behind with its discovery a miracle! ? It all depends on who this guy is and what his resources are.

Go back to the timeline. From chutes delivered to, passengers depart plane, liftoff, Tina going forward saying he will jump soon he is working on a money container, Cooper negotiating with pilot to slow the plane, stair light goes on, jump 8:11-8:13 ... plane just north of the Columbia. If he had wanted or needed to bail at Seattle he could have but would have had to speed things up ... he took his time. He had the luxury of time to do whatever he wanted to do .. Amended: what is interesting to me is the moment he puts on a chute he is encumbered. That violates tactical military protocol! He isnt physically free to defend himself, move around easily, etc. He has complained about being concerned about sky marshals on board, "no funny stuff', people approaching or getting near him, etc. The minute you put on a chute you become vulnerable. It violates tactical training. Something doesn't add up ??? Or, it is exactly what it suggests. It suggests Cooper was not a career military person, lacked military or civilian training, and even lacked common sense! He's an interesting mix of personality traits based on his life experience - - - a dangerous guy potentially if his bomb was real!

Coop is definitely assessing his plan for escape with the money secured and not being apprehended. - that is his priority and feeds any decision on where and when to jump. What did he actually do after liftoff at Seattle. He immediately prepares for a jump. Whatever his psychology or whatever he thought or processed in his head, he prepares to jump asap! He gets the money tied to himself. Most importantly he begins negotiating through Tina with the pilot to slow and stabilise the plane ....to maximize his chances for a successful jump. And he jumps. This is not theoretical. He jumped and landed within walking distance of PDX ... everything else and all theories about his thought process and options are irrelevant. Our task is to grapple with what Cooper did, not what he might have done or his wish list! Under the circumstances as they developed his decision to jump is wise. He got away. He proved to be untraceable!! God only knows how some of the money got to Tena Bar. The world is missing part of the story after he landed with the money apparently intact and undamaged ... so far there is no evidence to fill in that gap! Fifty years later there apparently is no further evidence to be had. Based on his actions, Cooper wanted to place distance between himself and any ability of authorities to get to him quickly while allowing himself the freedom to travel safely. Years later the next evidence of Cooper is close to PDX on a sandbar north of PDX on the Washington side of the river. Based on that he didn't quite make it home ? And if Deputy Jones is correct, 'if the money is here, Cooper himself was here' ?

Carr had this wrong. Carr assumed Coop was ready to jump when as you say, he wasnt. Tina confirmed he wasnt ready ...