georger

so, he was a chain smoker., nervous internalising type, calm exterior, inner tourmoil depressive personality disorder near the end of his rope. Decided it was worth the risk. So he did target the flight. Planned ahead. Saw an opportunity. No narcissist. Desperate. Might as well draw up a profile of half the people working in WA at the time. Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them.

Quotenice photo work georger. you're always good with the photoshop. it really does make you see things that aren't as obvious in the original photo. (edit) wrt "clay" there's a whole spectrum of sand to clay the soil guys use. I remember looking at this cause I had a soil guy out here drilling cores for a project. Paid thru the nose for boilerplate report. They have "sandy clay" "clayey sand" all sorts of bizarro terms across the spectrum. Reply> True. Like Eskimows and 97 kinds of snow. Palmer had a huge reputation as a specialist in beach sediments. So when he came to Tina Bar he had been researching Columbia beach sediments and beach and river front sediments for 30+ years. He was in fact one of the foremost researchers in this area in the US and the world. That I know. If he said something was "over" the dredge layer you almost have to take that as gospel, however combined with other facts it is difficult (maybe very difficult) to reconcile, for me at least. I confess to being trully mystified. Maybe others understand it but I don't. For me, something is missing. The money cannot be at Tina Bar and not moving, and not be at Tina Bar and moving, to still have fragile rubber bands in place, and fragments lazily sifting around over a remnant of $5800 left which you know was more money ... it just does not hang together. ... all coming down river just before the find during a dry year.

Hat tip to Orange1, too. So, vat kind o’ disorda do I t’ink ol’ DB had? Vell, it certainly vasn’t a narcissistic personality disorder, which is perhaps da most common form. T’ose folks need an audience to be narcissistic in front of, although they often do quite well without one, and thereby create one – although it’s rarely the one they hope for, as it’s usually composed of policemen, ambulance drivers and psych ER technicians. If MKULTRA is involved, DB may have had a very singular kind, unique to the program where his personality was fractured. Also, a lot of pathology might have been overridden by hypnosis, surgery or medications, eg: messages of “you’re doing this for your country, Dan, etc. Maybe his amygdala was surgically de-stim’d – that could get rid of a lot of fear. This is wholly conjecturous on my part. I’m developing contacts with the folks who were part of the big MKULTRA studies at the Allen Institute in Montreal, and perhaps some inkling about the kinds of personality disorders that MK produced will come from this. I have one person here locally in Pierce County, WA to interview, and I’ll be reaching out again, shortly, to Cathy O’Brien, perhaps the most famous, or best known, survivor of MKULTRA. But I suspect DB was in a special place, like Fort Detrich. I’m just in the early stages of stirring this pot. Where did smokejumpers and Air America guys go for medical care? That might be a place to look. But back to the man on the plane. What kinds of clues are there, and what kinds of clinical observations came be made? For me, a few things stand out. One, his courteousness, ie: “Excuse me, Miss, but you ought to take a look at that note.” Two, he didn’t sweat. Tosaw says DB exploded briefly with rage when the fueling trucks didn’t get the job done in a timely fashion, but other than that, there was really no anxiety or nervousness displayed in any reports I’ve read. That tells me he was very much “at one” with what he was doing. Possibly confident and secure, little evidence of doubt, and no apparent fear shown as to what awaited him beyond the bottom step of the aft stairs. It could also mean he was detached from his emotions, or didn’t even have any to be detached from. Three, he was a nice guy, even as Tina probed him for hints of his identity. He seemed in control of the conversation and didn’t reveal anything. He had a high level of mindfulness, I would say. I think Tosaw says that he waved as Tina left. Four. I sense a dependency in DB. No one thing points to this, but his needing Tina to keep lighting cigarettes comes to mind as a form of neediness. Five. Would he have blown the plane if he had to? I haven’t heard any commentary that the folks aboard the plane were going to rush him, there was no “Let’s roll,” moment aboard Flight 305, so I would guess that the crew and the FBI at Sea-Tac were at least 50% sure DB needed to be taken seriously. So, DB effectively conveyed that he was willing to kill 40 people in pursuit of his mission? Whew, that’s antisocial. So, if I had to make a diagnosis, I’d say it was a mix of avoidant, antisocial and dependant. ja boot, vas das Coopernik hapt dos nicotene stains onder his undt fingerz, or vas hist fingerz free from nicotene blemish@!? Ja? Makes big difference in psychotropic gestalt, ja?

Now we get to the nik of it - there is clay vs "clay". Likewise bottom sediment including bottom heavy sand, (black sand), other dense elemental stuff, and there is lighter washed sand which virtually floats in a flood and settles 'over' things on a bar. The dredging must fit into a geological sequence already in place. Then the softer uncompacted materials erode leaving ...... what was there before.

(d) The geologist that worked the site stated that it would be of a certain impossibility that on its own the money could have broke through the clay deposits from the dredging and the dig showed no signs of disturbance in the clay layer. The photo attached shows settling-slumping of dredge debris ( first south pile). Dont have a measurment of the distance involved but the date seems to indicate this photo was after the tractor spreading and compaction work was finished. The slump looks like a mini landslide. What interests me is the word clay because after the dredging project there will be two clay layers, one hard compacted clay layer under the original beach (strata), and a second far less compacted clay layer which settles out and works its way to the bottom from the dreding silts being pump on to the beach rise. Which clay layer was the money found over in 1980? How much of the less dense dredging material had eroded away between 9-74 and 2-80 and what beach did we have in 1980? Was there enough erosion to have given us back the 1974 beach plus a few recent layers of sands from flooding and melts? Is that the clay layer the money was found above? Because if that is the case then the money was there in 74 before dredge layers were applied and conceivably the money might have been there since 71 and the 71 flood. There were floods in 71, 74?, 76,-77, and 78-79 were dry years. Furthermore, bands which begin to turn brittle after 6mos-3 years were perfectly in place around two bundles. The money probably had not moved in some time since 1971. There were other fragments of money on site so we know this money was more than $5800 when first deposited. This is why I wanted core samples taken at Tina Bar, to confirm the actual stratigraphy thatis in place there now, today. My reasoning was, perhaps something of all of these layers going clear down to what must be a hard compacted aluvial clay undergirding the whole beach, must still be present today, post dredging in 74, and something of the original dredging must still be there today somewhere at Tina Bar. Otherwise, we must take Palmer's word that the money was found above the clay layer of the dredging deposit, which puits the money at Tina Bar there some time after 1974, perhaps in 76-77 if 78-80 were dry years.

Thanks Tom. I don't know why you would post that there wasn't a Clay Report, if you didn't know if there was a Clay Report. By now, you must be sensitive to how myths get created with Cooper, and I'm surprised you create them so easily. You created the SR-71 myth. There is no data than anything happened with the SR-71, except that one line you provided. But you fell into the trap of implying something. It's really easy to see how people get sucked into creating myths. Everyone thinks they know stuff, or can digest stuff, better than others. And that secret data makes sense. Good luck with your plan. Ckret already referred to the Palmer report in prior posts. Those comments are open to discussion.

Agree - so Snow we simply cannot talk about it. Sorry. Tom is going a long way discussing as much as he has. .... Jerry I havent called because Im up to my ears in things but will try tomorrow night if all goes well tomorrow - Thanks

QuoteTom K said "From what I understand the dredge spill is not very efficient at keeping sand up on the beach. It forms its own river that flows back to the Columbia and takes a bunch of sand with it. Hence half the sand ends back up in the water along the shore and you get the bump you see in the pics. " When we were looking for alternative transports, we were looking at things like storm drainage etc. It's interesting that this dredge slurry formed a temporary "river" draining back down. The money could have been deposited somewhere way up shore in '71, then eroded down by the slurry in '74 What's bizarre is I can't understand this clay layer theory. Reply> The original aluvial clay in there, usually covered by one or more sand layers. The whole purpose of the dredging was to replensih the beach. That is, to add sand above the clay layer probably becoming exposed at the waterline. Once the deeper compacted clay layer which supports the beach is undercut then then the whole beach can drop and wash away. The '74 photos show the amount of material which settled down from the dredge deposits higher on the beach. (A tractor was also used to move material around and compact it higher on the beach.) It is possible the money had already been at Tina Bar since '71, covered over by an original deposit of sand layed down by the same event that brought the money to T-Bar, in 71. The realtively deep but lose dredge waste slumps and covers this area (good protection for the money), erosion between 74-79 reduces this layer, and the money is finally exposed in 80 - Ingrams finds some. If there were money fragments above and below the bundles found that adds up to a vertical placement, vs horizontal.

Jerry, take a look at the attached photo. This shows where dredge debris was put in 74. What do you think?

How does Safe resolve all this? He must pick and choose. What does he pick? Sounds to me like he thinks we are trying to manipulate things to get Coop into the Columbia - not true. Just seems that way if it gets discussed. I always return to Safe's early posts about how money could have been conveyed to T-Bar. He starts with the standard accepted FBI data set and flight path map, and works within those bounds - if I understand him. It sounds like he is reminding us of the same thing all over again? (something I have always taken at face value) It is this very logic that drove Sluggo to finally say (in effect to Safe) 'I dont see it. There must be a missing link'. In other words, I think Sluggo has been working from Safe' script also - ???

How does the skyjack make NWA look unsafe or negligent??? They did a GREAT job if you look at the outcome as the grade. No injuries, no deaths of crew or pax. Not much property damage (ramp strike on landing) and a cash loss covered by insurance. I'd give them an A-. Now if NWA thought it was an insider, then the situation totally changes. I haven't seen any indication that NWA had a clue about Cooper's ID. Employees gossip. Word gets out. 377 How does it make NWA look bad? Guilt by association. (a) NWA makes planes - well flies and maintains planes, offers rides for a fee. (b) people get on planes. (c) something goes wrong. (d) NWA screwed up to allow it. Again, the airline industry = national pride. A vital part of the economy. Drives technology. National security issues. Some guy gets on a plane and hijacks it - its almost treason. And in corporate circles it is treason. It strikes at the heart of everything sacred and important, from the corporate perspective. Hijackings cause a huge backwash through many institutions, agencies, and corporations. Just that simple. You're the lawyer! (2) It looks like a targeted situation requiring information. The flight was newly added since August. (as per Snow's flight skeds). This was either a coincidence or someone keeping track or looking for an opportunity, or an inside job. somebody

I think Safe is saying: 'take the facts we have at face value - dont change anything, they are within allowable deviation to draw a valid conclusion'. That would not hurt a thing. But a few more solid facts wouldnt hurt either -

Beautiful.

Georger. Just what do you speculate that they were covering up or manipulating and why? You do think there was a skyjacker on the plane, right? Or... do you have some doubts? Reply> Their reputations. Corporations are people. People's reputations. The reputation of the company (Safety first!). Here's one way it works: 'Hi Wayne. It's the 10th. Can we roll over 20 million until Sept 8th? Sure no problem. Wayne I need 30 mil in the PR account. We got hit by a hijacking. Yes I know. I heard about that, was all over the news. Well let me see. I will have to go to the Board about that, and you know how the Board is about scandals? We liketo think that things likethis cant happen. Yes, well Wayne we need the extra money this month;. I could call Chase. ... well let me talk to the Board. Im sure it will float...' and there are a million other issues. Airlines are a very competitive business and it also happens to cross with National Security! No good employee is going to flip off to a reporter or to some "amateur sleuth" and risk saying the wrong thing. Social IQ is at least 90% of being a good corporate employee, and a good CEO. Now, where did the PI Transcript come from exactly. Who leaked it to the Post Intelligencer? And if NWA thought for a second the hijacking was in inside job then that closes thedoor even tighter... I think Safe is reading this either raising an eyebrow or laughing his ass off .. I dont know which.

Quote(edit) Also remember there were rocky corporate issues for NWA then that we've discussed. Pilots were on no-contract for a year I think it was? Still, on 11/24/71. The records of NWA (corporate) that exist publicly are at this library 55.5 cu. ft (59 boxes) http://www.mnhs.org/library/findaids/00110.html Cooper hijack files (don't know what) are in this box. It looks like PR stuff? Could be random goodies in any boxes from '71-'73 though? Note they have files on all their hijacks (I listed them before) Reply: That is interesting - didnt know about this archive. Hmmm how do you know Cooper files are "in this box"? If you went to this archive and there are no transcripts or anything vital, well then you know... Geof?

But: his family might still have his records. Only been 8-1/2 years since his death. (or he may have given them to some place, since he was an historic figure...inducted into aviation hall of fame somewhere) (edit) Question: Why didn't Soderlind ever speak up over the years to talk about how he calculated the flight path, if he was the main driver of the data calculations. Were there other people? Did he just not care? Was he told it was secret? (probably) Its NWA work product and evidence. Wont ever see the light of day - until the Feds give up the case and some media outfit pays NWA or whoever a hefty user fee - $1mil or more. then with that not as much as people had hoped for may be there! I tried to get NOVA interested in the Cooper case years ago. They did some poking around and dropped it. Too difficult and not enough hard data. One producer talked to NWA people and that is where things stalled. It is a sure bet people talked to Soderlind or tried to but you never saw newspaper interviews with him. Or any media interview for that matter.

One thing of note - goes to how and by WHO the investigation proceeded following the hijacking: We have been focusing on the FBI here. Several reasons: presence of Ckret, influence of Jo. Bruce now arrives and questions investigation, even says flaws in investigation itself could lead to Cooper! One thing has been apparent to me for months - NWA played a LARGE ROLE. I think NWA played the leading role with everyone else following. Nyrop ran NWA and told the FBI what to do! Everyone else played an inferior role. THE DATA IS WITH NWA! THE FBI DOESNT HAVE THE DATA AND NEVER DID! All the FBI did was 'criminal investigation' after the fact. NWA may never release their data, just as Continental seems unwilling to confirm or elaborate on Thomas E? Bohan. The FBI is not the key to anything of deep value perhaps. I have been suspicious of this all along. Bruce & Jo etal may be wasting their time focusing on the FBI. Ckret as much as said this once when he expressed exasperation here almost saying 'the FBI doesnt know or have all things... I dont know!' If Ckret doesnt even have access to NWA corporate documents then how would Ckret know or be able to answer some questions? (Jo says the FBI knows and is hiding everything! Bruce now says the FBi had Cooper but didnt know it! ) SafecrackingPLFrsvp says: "Follow the evidence". He never specifies "the evidence". My question to Safe is: "What's your resume with NWA that allows you to KNOW THE EVIDENCE!"? Let's assume Safe sees or has something the rest of us have missed. I think Safe is saying the money could have arrived at Tina Bar except by means of Cooper or an associate, personally. Someone who knew the Fazios? In other words, money transported by legs. Because no DZ and no hydrological route and dredging scenario brings money to T_Bar. And where would NWA fit into this scenario sidestepping the FBI? I have said this before. There is an OBVIOUS gap in communications 8:12-8:20 in ALL of the transcripts. Scott went to private communication with NWA and others - a large untranscribed part of reality that night. Why? What was discussed? NWA knows. Somewhere there is a transcript of those key communications and NWA has it. NWA transcribed it and it was left out of the public version of the transcripts, and perhaps left out of the version NWA gave the FBI! In my opinion, the transcripts from 8:20 to the landing at Reno reads like a mix of routine communications mixed with bad comedy, soap opera, reality being manipulated and covered up. (They did go back to look for Cooper! Any idea they didnt is nonsense) Finally, they almost reluctantly, casually, say or admit they have looked, and he isnt there. That is an anti-climax to what had already happened 8:12- 8;20 and intense ground communications never published. NWA was calling ALL of the shots at every point in this hijacking. Hijackings are a serious matter for a corporation for all kinds of reasons, all of them financial in nature. When push comes to shove in such matters the govt serves corporate interests, not the reverse, and I believe that was how it was on 11-24-71. The FBI was cooperating, perhaps even taking orders, from Nyrop. It was NOT that the FBI and H etal were stupid or incompetent or anything else so much as they were cooperating in their traditional role, assisting corporate needs. NWA was in charge. The insurance company would have had a full report. A detailed report. That is how it works. The FBI may have been filled in last. When Tina gives her report about the bomb it is very clear they are already trying to decide if the bomb is real or not, what the odds are. That is why they asked Tina to describe the bomb. The Senior officer Scott was doing the communicating. 2nd Officer Rat is flying the plane, by hand. This alone tells you where priorities were. Scott is handling the hijacker and the communications because of the threat of a bomb and Nyrop participating personally. Scott knows what happened and what was said and done. Scott walks in to H years later and says, "oh by the way, we were east of that flight map of yours!' That shows the pecking order. NWA first. FBI last. Imagine what must have gone through Ralph's mind at that moment! I think this perspective is correct.

Tom/Snow: I assume this is all about trying to clarify the oscillations vs bump via other data on the tape ... Might also be productive to talk to old 727 pilots familiar with all of the nuances of the 727 or former crew members. Might find that on a Boeing forum vs here or even on the old Piedmont forum which is still alive. 'Skydivejack' was very clear: the FDR will not have cabin pressure data on it. So you have to look for one or more indirect concomitants of cabin pressure and even then it may not tell you exactly when he jumped. If the jets trailing did see 305's light blink but did not see a flare, would they have noticed a flare dropping if Cooper did that? The next step is to interview every bear between Merwin Lake and Woodburn OR and see if some clan of bears has a legend about a guy jumping into their pantry on thge night of 11-24-71 ! Jo probably has something on that.

Why dont you contact Skydivejack Reg July 18 2003 here. ? Sounds like he has firsthand experience and might be able to direct you . . .

Our embedded journalist draws one personality related conclusion from the fact that Cooper was apparently never reported missing. I think the more likely explanation is simply that he didn't die in the jump. 377 or people he knew had no awareness of anything happening, he had no family and few friends, Cooper was never associated with the hijacking dead or alive, he was part of a group that had reason not to report anything, he was missed but not reported or connected, ......... endless permutations here. example: Barb confessed and boasted she was Cooper and not one person reported that to the FBI! We know nothing about the human group he might have belonged to (dna mtdna) and until we know that we know nothing - in the meantime we have all these people confessing and conjecturing which only diverts attention away from where attention might focus and turn something up .... If you could do one thing on this side of the case to improve chances of finding something it would be to DISALLOW any time spent and any discussion of confessors, promoters of confessors, etc etc etc. It's like having drunks in bulldozers going through the crime scene!

The note I just posted about Calibration I think is important. We need to know what the error bounds for the data was at the time. I don't know how we can find this. Maybe anecdotal. Im to bed... good luck.

QuoteAs a fer-instance of what the 727 might have had. Still looking. 5 parameter analog Lockheed LAS-109C Recorded Pressure altitude, indicated airspeed, magnetic heading, vertical acceleration (load factor) and microphone (radio) keying versus time. Davall Wire FDR with digital was used on some later models two pics attached. 707 was 60's era. Reply- The poster I found said no wire - tape.

Tom we had the following post here - may be significant" SkydiveJack United States JumpsLicenseIn sport : 7100: D 6486: 34 years Jan 21, 2008, 8:39 PM Post #1260 of 1694 (922 views) Registered: Jul 18, 2003Posts: 539 Re: [awsee1] 2000 trip [In reply to] In Reply To Ok. I found it hard to believe that the flight recorder wouldn't have been accurate. No GPS back then, but the WAAS beacons that existed still correct GPS signals for accuracy from about 100 meters to about 3, even today. Not sure they were that accurate back then with all the upgrades, but we're certainly not dealing with mash. Bren Flight Data Recorders back then did not record navigation data. They only recorded somewhere between 6 to 9 parameters. Things like altitude, airspeed, thrust, maybe flap and gear position. I don't remember all of them but I do know that cabin pressure was not a parameter. Therefore there is no navigation/flight path recorded from the actual airplane. (BTW, there would be no record of the pressure bump and it's time other than the pilots.) Back in 1971 the recorders used a big spool of tape and it had to be replaced when it was full. The cockpit voice recorder is a separate system that recorded only a 30 minute loop then re-recorded over itself. So there would be no record of the pilots conversation except the last 30 minutes into Reno. You are correct that there was no GPS back in that day, then mention "the WAAS beacons that existed". I'm not sure what you mean by this but the WAAS system I am familiar with is only just starting to be put in place. The beacons that existed back then (VOR's) worked well but were nowhere near as accurate as GPS is today. The only record of the flight path would be from ground based radar. I hope the FBI saved the tape records of this, not just the diagrams that were drawn up at the time!

Ok Snow, I have made good with the data. Now the forum can do something for me. There was a black box on 305 and it was used somehow in the data analysis. The FAA has no record of it. Ckret spent a LOT of time looking for it in the files and came up empty. I need an example of the RAW black box data from that era, preferably from a 727. Reply> Tom there was something on this here way back - Sluggo finally posted on it as I recall ?

If there was an SR-71 spy plane overflight of the US, as part of a domestic criminal investigation in 1971, that would be huge interesting news. (CIA -> domestic) Reply> Hi altitude IR scanning perhaps? Even if used it didnt find him?