georger

He must have sewn it. He went to aeronautical school. So he wasn't a stupid idiot. I mean, Ckret had his ADD engineer theory. This guy had the combination of being able to get into aeronautical school, assemble a canopy that would survive a jet exit (unclear exit speed, probably pretty slow?). I think the robbery was besides the point. Sounds like he just really wanted to skydive. A dreamer. Quote As you know, there have been numerous studies based around some model of the "rational man". Turns out there is no such thing as a "rational man" no matter how you define it. Its not simply a matter of good vs bad vs middling decision making - it often comes down to whether 'any' decisions making process will occur at all. People very often just react, or leap, and quite often based on no thought process at all. And context matters. When people are treated as if 'anything' could happen, quite often 'anything' will and does happen. If you restrict context to a narrow stream of possible behaviors then you can do nice things like predict if certain types of people will graduate or not graduate, based on a number of factors. Tests can be contructed to measure people's potentials with this narrow stream - the field is called Ed Psych Measurement. As a rule, humans like to believe there are reasons behind every other human action, whether there are reasons or not. Humans are something more than mere reactive animals - the claim goes. Humans however are not always that rational, or stream- oriented. And sometimes the very fact humans can abstract so freely even widens the possibility of a human being less rational, than say a blind starving raccoon that has wandered out of the woods onto some playground. HL Menken said: "Humans are super- ficially rational" in an attempt to capture voting behavior. Sam Clemens said: "If you want to get a kid well educated, lock him in a barrel for 15 years and feed him through the bunghole in the barrel!". As long as Cooper rode the plane his stream of options remained wide. The moment he decided to parachute (his choice?) his options narrowed. Outside observers would basically split on their opinions about this: Cooper was either experienced, or a fool. In either event physics takes over and applies to Cooper from that point on. Very likely the stress on Cooper was accumulating through the whole event. This may or may not have affected his final decision to bail. He may slowly have arrived at a point where he felt he had no options, or was so determined there were never any options. (There is no outside evidence - yet - to decide what emotional state Cooper was in vis-a-vis what by most accounts we could call stress). eg. he didnt throw up on the plane? Or, this was all a simple flow of events for Cooper, sticking to a plan from beginning to end. That would be the sign of a trained man, a man with a mission, and man who subverts his personal emotions in lieu of the plan. And he jumps, like a robot acting. This leaves experts to ponder Cooper's background, personhood, and his rationality which may in reality have all been contained in "the plan" being conducted by a trained person, or a person self-trained.

I don't think Cooper was career military. What does georger think? I dont see anything which says one way or the other outside of the fact he did seem physically fit? He did make some very good judgements/choices about people, he did take control while staying in the background, he had an excellent plan which looks like a targeted situation ... but the parachuting in hostile conditions is a big weakness (maybe a risk he thought he could pull off and survive if he had training). BTW my uncle Glenn who was a paratrooper in WWII says the number one risk was bailing at night into hostile terrain, not the jump, not the chute, and not the weather per se, IF he was experienced. If Cooper was not an experienced jumper my uncle thinks this was an act risking suicide and a 50-50 proposition IFF he landed in flat terrain. BTW, my uncle says that if Cooper's shoes were the snug-fitting above ankle type especially with a zip on one side, then he probably kept his shoes in the jump, and Cooper may have even selected that type of shoe because of its snug fit.

I have a number of reasons to believe (from very credible witnesses) that the FBI and area law enforcement checked every conceivable hotel, motel, privy, and bush in a very wide thorough effort to uncover anyone who had stayed at a hotel, a YMCA, and you-name-it prior to and immediately after 11-24-71 ... from north of Seattle south below Portland, and areas east and west of V23. This effort continued for months, I am told. If Jo's hotel clerk was on duty its a little hard to believe he escaped notice or being interviewed. I have nothing more to offer on this than that. I know what Im saying in incomplete, but there was a huge effort to make a very wide comprehensive search that lasted months, on both the part of the FBI and every level of law enforcement throughout Washington.

I'm guessing that all georger is suggesting is that the age suggests some WWII involvement. i.e if Cooper was 45-50, then in 1945 (26 years earlier) he was 19-24, so he would likely have been drafted or more likely enlisted. If he was on the low side of the age, he may have still been in training but never deployed. (WWII ended 9/45)...i.e. if Cooper was 45, then in 44 he would have been 18. May never have been deployed. So there's a lot of possibilities. Minimally I was wondering why georger thought paratrooper. Because that gave him skills or the idea or ??? (it would be reaching back 26 years for skills?) Quote yes, its the age factor I focus on. I think paratrooper because I dont see Cooper as completely irrational. Jumping from an airplane is a very specific skill. He either had experience or he didnt - even minimal experience. If he had no experience then he is more irrational than I think. I could be completely wrong, but his age range does seem to place him in an age bracket, to me. On another note, many people generally portray Cooper as being calm, cool, and collected. Ckret poked a hole in that, I think. Cooper also spent time in the bathroom which is generally taken as hiding/evading as the passengers were deplaned. He could have also gone to the bathroom because he was sick (from stress). Its an option we never discussed ...

Gee Georger... that pretty much describes every guy over 40 who still skydives. I liked your back brace dry cell cold fusion reactor joke. Glad to see your sense of humor come out now and then. Didn't the cold fusion fiasco actually start in Salt Lake City? 377 I asked my uncle Glenn last Sunday if he was DB Cooper - a WWII paratrooper captured & escaped three times - he's also our only Mormon in the family. He's 88. He laughed and said, "hell no". And then he deliveed the lowest cut of all - he asked, "Are you still thinking about all of that? You do know you'r grandma was only pulling your leg dont you....." ........ we had him on a speaker phone, my son behind me roared with laughter. So we can scratch one WWII vet off the list. well Im sure nobody cares - I mentioned cold fusion because it was in the news again last week. A new article in Science pending. Announced by Navy researchers at a Portland conference of the American Chemical Soc. You can search the web for details -

I am getting adled! I forgot the most important part- which is to say: WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION? I mean is there a formal authorised discussion, somewhere? Anywhere? And who proclaimed that? I dont remember anything like that ever being announced by anyone anywhere? Did Jo Weber proclaim and announce it to the world? Did Snowmman? Did Sluggo? Did I? Did Quade? Did Larry, Jerry, or Mary, or 377, 483, 19693.14159, or Obama? I must have missed the announcement, which is "announ" + "cement" and the thy bone hooks to the hip bone so there must be some kind of kind-of moral certainty in that, somewhere by somebody? So if anyone feels they have been left out my question is: "left out of what?" Some people did this - some people did that - and against all of this there is the backdrop of the real FBI which Jo Weber says is irrelevant but also crucial! I have a hard time juggling all of these various juxtapositions permutated on top of the one real reality of the case itself, ie FBI and Cooper Hijacking. I guess what this comes down to is different people tried to fit in into different places and no single place ever was a place everyone and everything could fit in to. Ckret and the FBI included. My posting an invitation at Science Forum was a joke! I dont expect any responses there, never intended to start my own group, did it partly out of frustration, and if one single person ever replies there ten years from now I will be totally shocked and amazed, and even disappointed - mainly that I now have to answer and accomodate some innocent person who knows nothing about the background of things here, and on and on and on... as luck goes it would be Cooper himself finding that isolated post of mine in the middle of nowhere and makes a reply! Cooper's WOW signal. But Jo ad Snow would see that! Because I never go back to that forum to dsee if anyone has replied, for the very reasons I cite above - itwas a joke out of frustration expecting no replies or another "discussion". I guess some felt this forum was "thee discussion". Ckret would see his office as being "thee discussion". Tom was see his _________ as "thee discussion" that matters. Sluggo sees his website as "thee discussion". Snowmman sees the whole world as "thee discussion". Jo wanted this thread she founded to be "thee discussion". So many discussions - so little time. 19693545473936 has his ideas about what "thee discussion" should be. Quade is probably the only sane person here and wants to the whole thing to just go away - Labrys wants something better than mere outlines, and I very much agree, but I also think I understand the remote chance of that ........ anywhere. Jerry and Shelly are going to keep looking in any event. They are saints in my book, and friends with H, and part of the Washington family which in some small way intersects with my flesh-and-blood family who were in Vancouver and at Tacoma, some in law enforcement to finally answer one of Jo's persistent questions - I had one great aunt who with her Minster husband was saying prayers for Cooper & the FBI that nobody would get hurt! I had a grandmother in her eighties saying "lets go out a help git him!" and we all laughed. Dear people all in the Great State of Washington! But I confess I DO NOT know how to nail any of this down any better than what this forum and Tom's group have done in the past year or so, baring some miracle that would bring new evidence into the light of day. None of us can be in fifteen places at once, with 15 different perspectives and biases and goals/motives. And so the story goes on and it will go on... That's all I can say. Georger

Ok Jo, thanks. Georger

No force of will needed. If there's a question there about what I think/believe, I actually I have no opinion. Did I raise issues that I thought were worth exploring? Yes. If I shouted down some other viewpoints, I apologize. Let's explore them now, then. (edit) Hey georger, I can't help it. You can't really be claiming lack of "force of will". Your posts don't show that. Now, I can understand that you can't be bothered. But call a spade a spade. Don't put it on us. I did think your post on March 21 about radar and FDRs was interesting ...

Quotegeorger said "Has Jo ever considered her threats on the Internet can be reported to the Authorities, as well as any threats she has issued via email ? Reply: ---------------------------------------- what ever happened to Jo's hotel clerk who gave his deposition to the FBI ? That was a big story.

Thats kind of what I think too, and have said so before. If the age range is accurate then his training would overlap with those who trained for WWII vs Korea vs Vietnam... But Jo & Snow steared us off into smoke jumpers and Mormons and sky diving clubs. I see Cooper as an ordinary man driven to extra- ordinary acts, not confident, and off his game that he might have been better at when younger, and trained during the period leading up to WWII. I just dont have the force of will to direct things here that Jo/Snow/377/Sluggo have. So mine (ours) is the minority view. Cooper was surely a Mormon smokejumper with extensive serious criminal history whow rapped $100m bills around champaign bottles and gave them to women in airports ... and had a cold fusion reactor built from a back brace and a battery, in his basement while he hob-knobbed with his mafia buddies while wining and dinning as the FBi wore its shoe leather off looking for a transvestites in Virginia coal mines?

But heck, look at Larr Carr, and the whole team of Citizen Sleuths on TV recently with their 15 minutes. They've contributed zero to the discussion so far. Now maybe they will, maybe they won't. Who knows. Reply: The citizen sleuths didnt request tv time. Lets be clear about this - Some of the sleuths strictly forbid it as a condition of their being in the discussion at all! The sleuths have contrubuted to "the discussion". You assume this forum is "the discussion", but this forum is only one discussion. There are other discussions, in other places, at other times, .... just to clear up some of your misunderstandings -

No, you brought up Gen-X, by your actions/words. I merely put a label on what I saw/read happening. But the rest of your comments/sentiments, are on right on the money and I agree completely. Too bad it couldnt have come sooner.

Pretty low level stuff Snow. You can do better (with training). Pick up a course from a local community college. Hey! Did you hear Jo is leaving? Why did you ever respond to me at all, is what I would like to know! More evidence of deprivation I guess.

Near miss. I was born in 1959. Cousin Brucie will be happy to know it was Brooklyn! Gen-X is old news anyhow. Quote More distortion & smoke & mirrors. Deception you said is your specialty. The pride in being a deceiver (and the deceived) was evident. Now you need to segway into how Georger's perceptions and claims are always wrong... Your move.

I have this image of a drunk old guy, dribbling spittle out of the side of his mouth, trying to pick a fight in the parking lot with a younger guy. And everyone standing around all thinking the same thought "god, I hope that doesn't happen to me, when I get to be like that" Gen-Xers always did have systemic imaging problems. Turn yourself in and get fixed. By extension, that generation also seems to have a Castration Complex - often seeks out elderly women they think are mother figures only to discover these women are castration specialists! Selects women who will only associate with eunuchs.

Quotegeorger said: "I simply was looking for a chance to discuss DB Cooper with an FBI agent in charge of the case, but you would not even allow Sp Agent Larry Carr the freedom to talk, without hurling accusations and allegations at him and the FBI, and on and on and on and on. " The history of the thread is that it was started by Jo. Ckret was a johnny-come-lately who hopped on it after it had gone on for a while. Ckret had nothing to do with starting the thread. reply: I didnt say he did, you asshole. If you are going to play historian and judge and jury - at least get your facts straight. But this is just more distraction. Fact is, you have nothing to say, and all this thread is is words.

AND Ahhhh! Now my work is done. Sluggo takes a "deep bow". See 377, that’s how you do it. snowmman, Thanks, you played you hand straight as an arrow, just as I hoped you would. See what we can accomplish when we work together. whatever all of that means. The naive observer might comment as Ckret did once before: "WTF"! And I could add: "I think you're all crazy". Good luck.

Since I am wrapping things up in a nice little package tonight - Georger - explain that statement to everyone above. WHY would you come here because of Jo Weber? WHY did you come here to this forum to tell people to forget about Jo Weber?Has your rage revealed something to everyone with the above statement? WHAT are You afraid of ? Why do I upset you - unless you know something about this case no one else does? WHY would you come here to make people forget about Jo Weber or the story she was trying to tell. Remember I am taking statements you have made. Why when I mentioned Tina and the book did you get so riled? What have I jeopardized in your life unless you have a direct connection or knowledge of this crime or Weber, you want to keep hidden. Why am I the agenda or your purpose in being here? To whom do I pose a threat? If you have an interest in the "Smorgasbord" - and a good reason I shouldn't take what I have public now is the time to talk to me. I am not without conscience or compassion - I have sought only the truth. I am sure you will come back with Hogwash or Garbage - are you sure you want to do that? Did you enjoy your outing? Sure, I will be glad to explain. When I joined this forum you had been dominating everything in addition to quarreling with people and making wild accusations against the FBI and others. Prior to Ckret arriving you were commanding the center of attention, but then Ckret arrived and I thought you would at least grant him the space to speak freely, but you didn't. The FBI had already dismissed your Duane Weber years before, so in my mind Duane Weber and you were not even viable topics! I thought we would be able to discuss DB Cooper here unopposed, especially with Ckret here. I thought you would back off or wind down (or something) to allow free expression here, but you did not and you still have not, and I doubt you ever will . I tried to ignore you completely. After a very short time you began challenging "the new person" and questioning my credentials "to speak at all" ! You showed your true colors right there. I hadnt said one word to you or about you. I had not even wanted to engage you in any respect or manner at all, but you challenged ME openly, and you challenged "the new person" even being here.... as if you own this forum! I should have told you to FUCK OFF! right there. I did not do that out of respect for Ckret trying to keep some civility here in this forum. I simply was looking for a place to discuss DB Cooper, and you made that impossible. I simply was looking for a chance to discuss DB Cooper with an FBI agent in charge of the case, but you would not even allow Sp Agent Larry Carr the freedom to talk, without hurling accusations and allegations at him and the FBI, and on and on and on and on. That's my explanation. Now what's your explanation?

Georger I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Jo is correct. Why is she an idiot? Byron Brown was the son. James Brown was his father, who supposedly got the story from Coffelt. James Sheehan was the writer for the Las Vegan who wrote the story and toured around with Byron Brown at the time when Bryon Brown was telling it. (1983) The story was written after James Coffelt died. At 59 in 1975. press blitz was 11/23/83 Note the Coffelt story was that the back rig was faulty, and he "grabbed" for the chest rig. Implying he opened the chest rig? But that's not correct. (see attached) Snowmman: well I guess Sheehan was only the EDITOR of the articles apparently written by Byron Brown, as Sheehan himself describes paring Brown's words down to manageable size, in the article I posted. Jo is never clear about anything, except to make her threats against people. Has Jo ever considered her threats on the Internet can be reported to the Authorities, as well as any threats she has issued via email ? As Jo's caretaker maybe you need to advise her of that before she gets herself and you into hot water.

Thanks, G. I appreciate this link. All I knew prior of Coffelt was whatever was in H's book. [Reply] Jo said you already knew it all, had the links etc. Re-read her post which evidently was just another lie. Im not going to post further on this because anything I say will just be fodder for Weber and she will twist and misconstrue it all, and God only knows where that would lead. It's not worth the trouble - The Browns had no major outlet until they contacted Sheehan and Sheehan presented their story. Jo doesnt even know who Sheehan is!

Snowmman I have no idea what story they are talking about by Sheehan. The article I am talking about was written by Byron H. Brown son of James Brown and published in the Vegan Magazine in Oct and Nov of 1983. A total of 21 pages of print and pictures in two segments.. This is exactly what Iam talking about. You dont even know the history of this. You hear somebody say "cat" and you call everybody you know saying: "Cats are taking over the world". You are an IDIOT!

You probably already know my response. Quote Is this a Duane Weber/Jo Weber forum or a Cooper forum, or both? Make up your mind or get off the pot.

Don’t go asking for my help now. You have used up all your karma with me. As far back as January of 2008, I begged you to stop posting on this forum (or any forum). I tried to tell you tactfully that you were “pissing in the punchbowl” and ruining any hope you might have to get someone (anyone) to take your story seriously and to enlist the help of others knowledgeable in technology, law, law enforcement, or social sciences. I asked you, Ralph H suggested to you, and X (the guy you said: “He’s not a hydrologist, but he’s pretty close to one”) almost begged you to STOP POSTING! But you have continued to post. I offered to manage the information flow for you, X offered to manage the information flow for you, we both agreed to share those duties, not because we agreed with each other, but because we disagreed with each other (that’s intellectual honesty). But you wouldn’t have it, and now you are just a circus bear, peddling your unicycle, juggling your balls, dancing for a soda-pop, and having no idea where you are going, nor why. What’s really sad, is that you have a very interesting story, most of the posters here don’t know the story of Duane Weber. They only know the story of Duane Weber as told by an ex-wife who selectively accepts or rejects data in order to make it fit the story outcome as she sees it. That outcome being that Duane was the DB Cooper who was on the plane that night. An analogy would be: You want to prove that Duane was the quarterback on the Pleasantville College State Championship Football team in 1956. When people of whom you have requested help, say “Well, it appears he was on the 1956 Pleasantville team, and they DID win the 1956 State Championship, but Duane was a running-back NOT a quarterback” you reject all that info because it doesn’t fit the outcome you wanted. You then go on to blame the people who are trying to help you. You even say, the Line-judge, and the Referee were incompetent, just because the facts don’t support your desired outcome. So, the boat sank. Who caused the boat to sink? YOU did! 377 is right… using mystical, far-fetched, supernatural, way-out, conspiratorial, and fanciful explanations to explain a puzzle are almost always wrong. The explanations are usually based on natural principles (and sometimes natural phenomena) and real-world facts. You remember when I told you that you needed to understand that everyone who shits on you is not your enemy, and everyone who pulls you out of shit is not your friend? It is obvious that you have never learned that lesson. Just in case anyone cares (which I doubt), here’s my read on Duane Loren Weber (AKA John C. Collins): He was not a petty criminal as some have said. He was a master criminal (not necessarily more evil), who, like any good gambler, knew when to quit. In his final years, his only crimes were centered on covering his past and protecting his legitimate (lawful) life. He MAY have been involved in some covert operations at some time (probably in the sixties and probably in Florida). His association with the NORJAK hijacking was tangential at most, most likely he was involved in the post hijacking search, or possibly was just intrigued by Cooper’s actions, and as a result admired him. He may have even conducted his own investigation, and desired to contact him (out of admiration). But, in that sense, he WAS involved. I think if Jo would open-up the (considerable) records she has amassed (to others here), some of the “deeper thinkers” like snowmman, georger, 377, Orange1 who post here regularly, could put together Duane’s story. And, I think all would find it interesting. So Jo, are you going to continue the make the same statements, over and over (ad nauseam), shout louder and louder, become more and more indignant, make personal attacks on those who try to help you understand, write more unsolicited PMs, display and increasing degree of emotional intensity, deny and reject the facts that don’t fit your story, embrace the fictions that support your desired outcome, and invoke protection and pity because of your health? Or, or you going to open your hand and show everyone the cards you are holding, and let them do some legwork (those you haven’t totally alienated), and maybe see where Duane REALLY fits in the NORJAK puzzle? Just remember the hard-learned lesson that a wise old man once told you: “Everyone who shits on you is not your enemy, and everyone who pulls you out of shit is not your friend.” Sluggo_Monster From my perspective, these are all clinical issues re- Jo Weber. And have no linkage to DB Cooper except by Jo continually using the word/name: Cooper. From my perspective, it would be as if somebody showed up here wanting to talk about Mickey Mouse or Ronald Racoon ......... and did so endlessly, with Snow's support, even though the topic is: DB Cooper. And having eaten aluminum foil Ronny Racoon detected BTG VOR and was DB Cooper! Jo Weber's MRI's are the real story ..... but why would anyone care here, except for the social aspects of her coming here? It could be evidence she has about Jesus, or some Governor, or Abe Lincoln, or toxins in Hershey candy bars, or the Tobacco Industry. She could have taken on the tobacco industry and been famous for that. DB Cooper is real. Jo and Duane Weber are not! Jo and Duane Weber (for all Jo's records) are still phantoms set against something as real gulf which is Cooper. And without that void Jo Weber would never have been in this story, in the first place. It's all in Jo's MRI's. Jo Weber has status only because people have validated here along the way. That as you know I very much disagree with. I disagree with that because I have seen the damage Jo (and people like her) do along their path of destruction. So, I dont have much sympathy for 'enablers' here at this time, and that includes you, Snowjob, and others... you people seem eminently callous and uninfomed and selfish to me, if only to Jo's regardless as a first-fact in this reality. Jo is the Forum stooge with a dunce hat on, in the corner. Her enablers have put her there when what Jo really needs is help of a clinical nature, she probably has refused. Complaining about Jo's PMs at this late stage is a little like complaining about the snake striking when its poked! We knew it was a snake all along! Jo is just one in a long line of individuals who want to take on the DB Cooper story and make it their own personal story. The rest of that story is people actually believing they could solve it! That is almost as ridiculous as what Jo Weber does... think about it! Consider the audacity implicit in that. My recommendation is that people just forget about Jo Weber, which is exactly where (and part of why) I came into this Forum in the first place.

Cooper had no back brace. End of story. Shelly is not attacking Jo, so why invent that? You have no conscience in any event, one way or the other. You're just another frustrated reporter.

I have said NOTHING that prove Duane was NOT Cooper. End of Subject. And crazy sick people like you are not good witnesses to anything. Even the time of day. End of Subject! Your arrogance is evidence! Your arrogance suggests it was you (not Duane) who cooked up the whole story, years ago. I think you were only using Duane, just as you have been using people for the last 13+ years, and use people here. I think when you report Duane saying: "Let it end..." he was telling you to "shut the fuck up about the Cooper story..." because he knew you might try and associate him after his death. The things you told people when you first arrived in Washington confirm this interpretation. I think you have known all along Duane Weber was not only not DB Cooper, but has nothing to do with the DB Cooper case. Your arrogance is a tool you use to assuage your rank stupidity. You should leave people alone and send email only to yourself.