georger

Sigh. so much for (March 22) and wherever the one was saying will only post to correct errors. I feel sorry for Jo, I really do, even though she doesn't want me too. But the sympathy does get eclipsed by irritation at these fanciful conspiracy theories, the number and subjects of which i have now lost track. ..mlk...bay of pigs...freemasons are just 3 that spring to mind immediately... i'm sure somewhere we can weave all this into a wonderful plot, ending in The Conspiracy that begets all other conspiracies. This time, Im just going to sit and watch the ballgame. Im not even sure which teams are playing or what sport it is? I think I see a goal line and a tie in play?

Even I have my limits. Duane as a Folsom prisoner smoke jumper pushed them. Duane having possession of the MLK assassination rifle stretched them beyond their breaking point. But this Jefferson MO Watergate tie deal is just too loopy for me to follow. Can you explain it to me? Please? How does it put Duane on the NORJACK plane?? 377 I dont know any more than you do.

Just received two PMs from Jo - both the same message as follows: "From: skyjack71 Date Sent: Apr 5, 2009, 11:27 PM Very tired tonight. I told the FBI about the tie but I was ignored yrs ago.. Today I decided to tell everything I know - to whoever will llisten because the FBI will not and did not. They and others I am sure are scoffing at that post - but it is just the first of more things to come. I noticed that the post did not get your usual monkey chatter (I say that affectionately) - so don't take offense. It may be because you realized that I was VERY serious. I don't have time to play games anymore. I need to get this done. I have tried to do this without disclosing things that might hurt others , but I can't do that anymore. I found out today that 2 individuals I thought where deceased are alive - not sure of their mental state - in their late 80's. Duane knew WA and he knew it well... " So... guess Jo is serious about this. (edit) Well... quite a development. I must say I appreciate Jo's straightforward communication. Perhaps now we can all act in a straightforward manner and handle this in an intelligent manner. I give Jo credit for her email to me tonight. We move forward. Georger

So 377? Where are you? You are usally quick to encourage Jo - seen Jo's latest post about the history of the tie!? In your opinion, is Jo's story reliable, subject to analysis or verification? Or is this a breakthrough and a link Jo has to something really BIG? Has Snow had a hand in this? Could radar help?

So let me see if I understand this using your own words: "In Jefferson in 1968 there was a tall round hotel - his hotel was resident to many politicians and in February or March of 1968 one of the politicians experiened a silent break-in to his room or one occupied by a member of his security team." ... "One item taken during this entry by an employee (or by an accomplice of the employee) was a "TIE" that the perpertator thought belonged to the politician."... The taking of this TIE has no known political overviews and probably does not connect to any covert or CIA action."... "The "TIE" was deliberately left on the plane by Cooper as a message to his family - a sort of "Good-Bye". " Those are large claims, Jo Weber. Jefferson? Missouri? Who is the politician? "His" is who? Maybe the NY Times, the FBI, and the CIA will be calling for a clarification; if the Associated Press is not already in possession of your post here. You do break news! [edit] where did Jo go? Wont she come back and clarify her assertions just made here, which I believe the Associated Press has received?

"TO ALL - NEW INFORMATION." ??? Is this another "baby photo of Tina Mucklow" story? Are you trying to provoke people all over again? This sounds a little crazy to me, given your history here. Did Snowmman put you up to this? What is the purpose of your post and what do you hope to accomplish with it?

Well as a proud Floridian and Virginian transplanted to the Midwest let me say Im glad you are alert and YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAW! As a proud SAR member a double YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAW!! As a proud former student of the Lexington Academy and a graduate of Wentworth which my ancestors helped found, a triple YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAW! And to quote General Lee: "Some people ortta know whereof and whomof they speak before ordering a mandate no Virginian can keep, and I could not keep that one given to me, especially with all these carpetbaggers whistling about lookin to steal everything that aint nailed down. So where does that bring us? It brings us right back to where our hearts begin. And in that vein I say what I must say!"

I think the distinction you are looking for is "prove causation" vs. "imply causation" - Try "The Philosophy of Science" by Gustav Bergmann. But none of that matters here.

[;) I have no idea what shoes he had on... Tina said ankle length but Im not even clear what that means. Loafers are ankle length? I guess we need a committee?

Thats a myth. It all depends on how the (tests) are being conducted and what the database and baselines are. Even a paranoid schizophrenic can be tested ... right in the middle of a delusional episode. Jo, for example, would never escape.

Pastures are sometimes hard to tell apart. Screaming isnt.

Thats a myth. It all depends on how the (tests) are being conducted and what the database and baselines are. Even a paranoid schizophrenic can be tested ... right in the middle of a delusional episode. Jo, for example, would never escape.

Thats a myth. It all depends on how the (tests) are being conducted and what the database and baselines are. Even a paranoid schizophrenic can be tested ... right in the middle of a delusional episode. The DB Cooper cases attracts liars who fit into a special catagory of liars who tell you right up front they are lying even as they talk. It doesnt matter to their audience who are also engaging in the joint lie. This system relies on some need or addiction among the participants, and the celebrated liars in this group can always fall back on: "you knew I was lying" and "you only fooled yourself". The assholes in this group deserve a special place in Hell because they are professional habitual liars who will revise history and send millions to their graves if necessary in order to preserve their own personal comfort. These people are called sociopathic liars and use conscience as a tool to gain their own shabby self satisfaction - which never lasts very long. These homeless vagrants always come back - to stir up more trouble.

here's a better blowup of the radar screen -

of interest. 377 here - attached have to run ...

I didnt say that at all. It is pretty obvious WE dont know who knew! No, we do know. Himmelsbach said there was no radar covering on the plane. We got this from Jerry. So the question is: Why did SAGE DC turn off their radar that night? Was it part of the planned coverup? Everything points to Jo being correct. The coverup that night (technology available for tracking. It was disabled) The coverup afterwards. Makes sense. Pretty funny.

I didnt say that at all. It is pretty obvious WE dont know who knew!

The language doesn't sound like anything ATC would say at all. My interpretation is, you are all making far more out of this than there is and very likely misinterpreting what ATC said and meant. The critical phrases are: " "Seattle Center told the military pilots that Flight 305 couldn't move; it had to stay where it was" (That seems to go against the theory of 305 flying whereever it wanted to.) "" There is absolutely nothing in the above which says ATC had imposed restrictions, and we generally know that wasn't true. Likewise, there is nothing in the above which imposes a restriction, or refers to a previously imposed ATC restriction. I think ATC is merely regurgitating 305's own self-imposed restriction based on what Sluggo says: (which is the altitude dictated by the hijacker). ATC is merely telling the T-33 what 305's current statis is, ie. 305's self imposed current ceiling. I read this as ATC trying to maintain 305's freedom. And protect 305. The unspoken but very obvious part of the message to T-33 is, "if you move in on top of 305 and 305 suddenly climbs for any reason, that would not be good!" While the motivation to move in and have a look at 305 is good (most tactical fighter pilots would want to do that!), all kinds of unintended negatives could result. Cooper could still be on the plane and seeing a tactical fighter move in, who knows what the hijacker might do... on top Cooper would not see or hear it, but there still remains a chance a close encounter could produce unintended results. ATC controlers are pretty finicky that way! Their whole business is safety and separation. (an F4 pilot I know pulled a stunt like this back in the 60s and got instantly sacked for it.) ATC isnt saying 305 is flying under a restriction. ATC is telling the T-33 'dont move in over 305 for any reason .... we dont know what 305 may do!' So, I dont see any conflict with any previous account because of this passage. I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's part, then 377's, etal. The passage as I read it is perfectly consistent with everything else we know, and with common sense logic under the circumstances which prevailed at that moment. Had the T-33 been allowed to maneuver on top of 305 for a look and 305 suddenly climbs for whatever reason, then we could have a real problem ... so ATC is telling T-33 "its not a good idea". I think that is all there is to this. Except for one thing! It tends to establish that ATC did not at that moment know for sure if Cooper had bailed? ATC's statement sure seems to imply that regardles of whatever was known on board 305 and possibly to others, ie Nyrop and NWA! I find that a little disturbing, Wouldnt ATC know? I find the passage interesting but not for the reasons yuall seem to think - I dont see any conlfict between these phrases and everything else we think we know - but I do see a problem that ATC at that moment does not seem to know that Cooper has bailed, if in fact he already had. That to my ind does need some explaining and it may point us in a direction some may not wish to go in... it may uphold my theory that only NWA knew critical facts, before others did.

OK, I must have missed something important here. I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the "document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I was asleep and missed it - Where is this document. ??? there is none. exactly. so 377 is just blowing smoke rings, again, and siting his "personal opinion" as fact! we do have the account of the 106's maneuvering to stay behind 305, and their seeing 305's light flashed ....... but the intercept failed according to 377 with nothing to suggest that. I think I have it now.

OK, I must have missed something important here. I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the "document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I was asleep and missed it - Where is this document. ???

So georger: you can try to explain how radar from McChord was able to provide a flight path to whoever created the '72 DZ map? Theories? Your anecdotal info might relate to who or how some '72 DZ map was constructed, or it might not. We could call up Mr. Clay and ask him, whoever Mr. Clay is! 377 knows Mr. Clay, in any event. And Bruce took care of Mr. Clay during his sex change. And Jo "knows" Mr. Clay was Duane, because C stands for Clay which stands for Collins, and the hip bone is connected to the thy bone when the ear bone was seen in Salt Lake City since Jo has a photo of Quade in Utah!

This radar operator anecdote stuff absolutely fascinates me Snow. Details like experienced ops being able to discriminate multiple targets beyond the theoretical limits imposed by pulse length are very interesting. Radar textbooks don't tell you everything apparently. If SAGE was really working well during NORJACK, the F 106 autopilots could have been controlled from the ground to fly an intercept using the F 106's MA1 fire control systems made by my old employer. Maybe the USAF thought the collision risk too great to use that mode in connection with a civil airliner? You have shown that the radar ops were always looking for tricks to see things at the limit of their system. Night after night boring boring boring, just airliners and routine USAF flights. A little excitement now and then from exercises. OK, NORJACK happens. HUGE F-ing deal. Right in the heart of SAGE country, plenty of coverage. Dontcha think every console operator at McChord is trying to see every tiny detail of the flight? I assume they know the hijacker has chutes. Correct? Who will be first to spot the exit? If F 106s were flying chase, wouldnt they kill the data block so that the F 106s could be seen on the scope if they were close to the NWA 727? The F 106 intercept failed. That must have been very very embarrassing to the USAF. If the SAGE guided F 106s couldnt find a transponder equipped 727 in their home turf what chance would they have intercepting a Russian intruder using ECM? Wish we knew what went on around all the McChord radar screens that night. 377 And in lieu of facts the best anyone can say is exactly what you said: "This radar operator anecdote stuff ..." which proves nothing. There is no proof it happened the way you outline it, just speculation based on speculative anecdotal material Snow finds. The intercept failed? I think your intercept fails.

(edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example. The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public. On the slim chance you are serious about this, we all know the issues, at least so far as the sand and clay layers are concerned, from what Ckret said. The money was found over vs under the dredge layer. Palmer thought he had identified the dredge layer. And to my knowledge (and over my advice) nobody has collected core samples of the area since Palmer did his original excavation, so we have only Palmer's report to rely on. Ckret gave us the basics of the Palmer report here. Snow: if you have done an independent assay at Tina Bar, present your evidence? The same goes for anyone else. It puzzles me that nobody did bother to do an independent study at Tina Bar, because it could have been a valuable piece of collateral evidence. Palmer was an expert in river beach sediments and so his report stands. I just dont think anyone is going to expend the resources that would be necessary in order to redo Palmer's work. Hopfully the scene will shift away from Tina Bar with some new discovery. One thing seems certain. This case will be argued at length for years to come. Snowman seems to be one of those. He obviously has a vested interest we know nothing about. As this thread continues we are learning more about the people in the thread than anything about Mr. Cooper!

only the crazy lady seems to be rational...it's just crazy! (edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example. The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public. Yea it is crazy and the craziness is yours. There is no Clay Report, as in Robt Clay phD who isued some report on the geology of ... blah blah blah. Next time Snow you capitalise letters know what you are doing. I see "Clay" I think Mr. Clay, not "clay". As best I can track this nonsense, it all began with the exchange below: Re: [TomKaye] man-made rivers [In reply to] Can't Post In Reply To Snow, Well did I not show the SR-71 data? Here, I will be a good guy on the clay layer. THERE IS NO REPORT ON THE CLAY LAYER. What you know is what I know. There were additional pics of the trench that showed sand layers, that's it. Tom Tom this cannot be true, and Safe knows it. There cannot be just pictures. There has to be words. The only words we have are in newspaper articles and Himmelsbach's Norjak book. Are you saying the theory about the clay layer was only printed in the newspapers and the Norjack book? there is no FBI report mentioning the clay layer? If so, this is good new data. Did the FBI pay the geologist, or was that volunteer work? Why didn't the geologist ever publish the work? (edit) So the theory is: Pictures were taken, the geologist talked to newspaper people, the FBI read the newspapers, and that's the whole clay layer story??? Is there anything else? (This post was edited by snowmman on Mar 10, 2009, 12:52 PM) snowmman Jumps License In sport : : : Mar 10, 2009, 12:58 PM Post #8745 of 9546 (245 views) Registered: Mar 30, 2008 Posts: 2423 The Clay Layer Report [In reply to] Can't Post Ckret is not a geologist, and can't come up with theories from pictures. Ckret posted here about the clay layer. Ckret must have read it in an FBI report. The Clay Layer Report is being destroyed, or hidden. Why? Is Himmelsbach involved? He's coming to the forefront at the same time the Clay Layer Report disappears? " Tom had said: " All, A lot has happened on this end this morning. I can no longer discuss FBI archive info with the public. We will be able to release info in the published paper. Before the window closes, I can tell you that there probably was a clay layer report, I am sure I must have seen it, but it was insignificant enough that I didn't bother to even photograph it. Tom " Tom was talking about clay. Not Dr Clay or Mr. Clay. The only mention of clay, ie strata, I am aware of in in Dr Palmer's report which we have discussed at length. Tom saw that report while in Seattle. Tom also looked for any other geological reports he could find and did not find anything significant, and he says this in his original post. When I said we had the clay report I meant excerpts from the Palmer report, which we all have via Ckret! That is all. That will be $19.99.

(edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example. The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public. Waoh Horsey! I said "clay" not "Clay"! I thought you were talijng about "clay' and meant excerpts from the Palmer report ... on "clay" (as in clay vs sand layers and sedimentary aluminium phyllosilicates found in river bed dredge deposits, ie. clay silt) .... not some Mister Clay, whoever or whatever he is. Sorry. I dont even know what the [Clay report] is. I will go back and check. You may know of something I dont even know about, which wouldnt surprise me. (edit) You have me curious now! You and Bruce and Jo seem to have special info none of the rest of us have! Why do I sense your sudden concern is more from envy than anything related to national security? You have never shown any concern for national security before in fact just the opposite, you or Bruce or Jo. Bruce has been lobbying hard for Cooper being a transvestite named Barb who had a sex change and now he wants to do biochemistry for the FBI at Quantico? I fail to see the connection ...... but what do I know! Bruce did say he was an orderly in an asylum for a number of years? I mean, guys! I know the difference between a light bulb and a Turkey vulture flying to Tibet! Ive been to town and seen the elephant. What species of jackolope am I looking at here?