georger

Again, Archie thinks the Cooper Hijacking was a TEST. Like a school fire alarm drill. He says there had been hijackings, there was a hijacking one week before the Cooper event, and it was obvious there were going to be more hijackings, so the government and NWA decided to conduct a TEST. They picked the day before Thanksgiving. They sent a guy on a plane with a fake bomb and demands ... and he landed at Reno with the plane and was escorted off and given a steak dinner! Archie thinks the crew on 305 may never have been informed what was really going on. But he thinks NWA and some in the FBI, and some in the military knew. Archie says: "It's obvious" and that's a quote.

Perhaps Archie would find himself a username and explain the logic behind the NO-JAK argument. I don't mean tying up loose ends in the evidence - I mean that I just don't understand what the rationale behind such a "test" or experiment or whatever you want to call it, would be. What would it be trying to prove, and to whom -- what would the goal of the exercise be? Archie's arguement is simple: There is no evidence Cooper left the plane. (The FBI is not to be believed). Therefore the whole Cooper hijacking was a "put up job" (as we say it here). A fake hijacking. This man is 10000% serious. And he definitely represents how other people feel about the Cooper case ... after 37 long years. How many people or what percentage of the population he represents, I do not know. He does not seem inclined to come here and post because I think he would see that as "morally" caving in, to his point of view. I asked him to come here and post. I think there may be a religious tie to his line of thinking. He mentioned "God's work" several times, in his replies to me. But I really think now Archie represents a certain segment of the population, whatever their motives and reasoning is -

If Archie thinks Snowmman or Sluggo are part of an "Intelligence Community" cover up of NO-JACK (NORJACK with no jumper) I believe he is mistaken. I have good reason to believe that both are just working folks like us with an interest in the case, nothing more exotic than that. Occam's razor doesn't like NO-JACK, but it is a fun theory and is good stuff for conspiracy buffs. 377 Fun to us maybe (which is exactly what I thought most would say here) but I assure you, this is real. People do feel as Archie feels/think. Archie's is part stance but part rational, looking at the evidence on a large scale. I argued details with Archie but it made no difference. He has an explanation for everything, a distorted explanation, but an explanation nonetheless. What strikes me on an intuitive level, is Archie may represent something of the same logic, which Cooper took into the hijacking, himself.

Something strange has happened. Two weeks ago a lurker at this Forum began communicating with me. Let's call him/her Archie (he claims to be a bonafide Archaeologist but on inspection he runs a religious based counseling? operation and that is all I know). Archie thinks 'we' are all wasting our time. Archie says 'you (meaning we) have accomplished nothing that "was not already known in newspapers" '. And, 'There never will be anything new discovered because, he never left the plane'. Archie is expressing a point of view we have never addressed, quite frankly. I expressed the idea here months ago but only as a theoretical option. That is the view that: "Cooper never left the plane. There never was a real hijacking. The whole thing was a systems test, in response to an increased frequency of hijackings one of which had occurred just a week before the supposed Cooper hijacking of #305". And anyone who thinks otherwise is only revealing deep personal issues (in addition to being 'short between the ears'). Archie is not sure who-all was in on this test, but he is convinced it was a test, and he says the sum total of all evidence suggests it was a test, due mainly to the palpable lack of any evidence after the fact, and the fact no one was caught - because there was nobody to catch! In other words, There was no Moon Landing. The whole thing is a fake - and somebody knows this! Archie cites Snowmman's activity here as one proof. Archie evidently has been an avid reader of this forum. He says that Sluggo gave away one clue early in the forum stating that he knew Snowmman was linked to Intelligence activity, and a photo of the 'Skunk Works' was posted? (I do remember this). But in the long recitation of various other hijackings, Snowmman was basically telling everyone 'the Cooper hijacking must be taken in context. The context is hijackings in general. The time of the Cooper hijacking comes early in what became a whole syndrome of people hijacking airplanes. There had already been hijackings prior to 11-24-71 and one just a week before 11-24-71, and therefore people decided to conduct a system test, in order to prepare for the future real hijackings. The Cooper Hijacking was that test, and nothing more. Cooper was some employee of the CIA or someone else who participated in the test, landed at Reno, and was whisked off the plane in secrecy, in the dead of night when no one was watching. That in a nutshell is Archie's case. Archie even speculates Cooper could have been one of the candidates which has surfaced to date, perhaps even Weber! (I mention this only because Archie brings it up). Archie is absolutely convinced "Cooper never got off the plane". He thinks this is self-evident. And he thinks I am a moron (and morally bankrupt!) for spending time on this. Archie even says he has prayed about this! He says I am a liar and a fraud wasting people's time even talking about the Cooper case. Archie has a very low opinion of me, to put it mildly! Quade reminded us last night - it is difficult to prove a negative. Even though Archie's is just one point of view among many, I now believe his point of view is more pervassive than I had previously thought it was. I think Archie represents a lot of people and the conclusion they have come to in the Cooper case. So, I am finally presenting this here as a formal idea and where this may lead, I do not know - My speculation is nobody here will take this very seriously, but perhaps I am mistaken. Archie has basically said "proof" is the main issue. And there is no "proof" Cooper left the plane. The money at Tina's Bar could have been planted there in 1979.

You didn't pay much attention to the discussion did you? You claimed it was a girl, but most or all of the rest of us couldn't even see enough detail to figure out if it was a boy or a girl. If you want to play games and obscure text or talk about "the" girl, fine, but here's a lesson for you: if you play games, don't expect anyone to take you seriously. and two pediatricians here couldn't tell if it was male vs female ... just not enough details. I sometimes think Jo gives these things out as a Rorschach test for us, having nothing to do with anything else -

I am the one who is crazy here - yet I seem to remember the story about WHY she became the ANGEL Udell - because she vanished without a trace, So do we search motor vehicle records for the year under "Angel Udell". Did she give you her first name? Did she know the Fazio's? Did she know any other person and give any account of her history? I thought you said she was in trucking-hauling? Was she bigger than a bread box? For God's sake dont say she had wings. Ok., So the H2O stains on the photo indicate ... thephoto was in the Columbia? I made the leap given your clues. Confirm or deny.

This is a point that has been raised repeatedly here, yet Jo continues to insist it is up to the FBI to prove to her he wasn't Cooper (she has made countless posts to this effect). There are another, what, 200 million people we could ask them to "prove" were not Cooper, yet she still fails to see how ridiculous this assertion is and continues to say things like. Poor old Larry who went much further than he usually would to try find a Duane connection. Lack of fingerprints, lack of DNA, lack of anything except wild stories (and the mysterious disappearance of the one person who apparently "understood"... i think this is the first I saw that Jo had not been able to contact Udell on the numbe she was given.. yet she sees nothing strange in this the way I presume the rest of us do) Im still cogitating on the mathematics of Quade's 'cant prove a negative', if that is what it is, and Im not it is, actually. This is not a paradox. We place a mouse in a box and wait then release the mouse. We find no evidence of the mouse in the box - so the mouse was never in the box? What we found was evidence of at least 69 mice in the box, but was one of these our mouse? 0!x69 = 69. Good grief we put 69 mice inthe box!

I depended on the crew, but the quide was a college student who had only been in WA for 2 yrs. I didn't expect to need a camera but I should have borrowed one from one of the ladies - I just didnt think about it because my extra day in WA without the Crew was arranged on the last moment. You didn't wait for me to download the picture. Jo I have family photos too. Your photo could be a photo of Moses for all I know -

The problem is, it's nearly impossible to prove something didn't happen. For instance, not seeing fingerprints at a crime scene doesn't prove somebody wasn't there. However, seeing fingerprints proves somebody was. Matching fingerprints proves a specific person was there. There's no way to prove Duane wasn't on the plane by a lack of his fingerprints, however, if he had left some, well, we'd know for certain he was. THAT is what the FBI has never found and what Jo continues to fail to do, PROVE he was on the plane. The above is true. Plus we are all at a distinct disadvantage here because none of us has the data the FBI has, whatever it has but Ckret clearly stated there are 69 prints (at least) that were recovred none of which presumably matched with any aspect of Duane's prints which they have. There was an issue about these prints not being useful in the automated data sort system. Cooper handled things on the plane. He left prints or something. Its just extremely frustrating not having the data to make headway. Guess and mental exercises cant go very far, especially in the face of someone saying her husband was Cooper. Jo's last mission to Washington was crucial. You would expect as much documentation as possible, even bending over backwards to document everything. But Im only projecting what I would try and do. I would have camped out in ditches and eaten worms to do so, if required! But that's just me

I am very serious when I say the FBI missed somethings that are very important....This may have occured because the case was so old and there had been so many suspects. These are also things that would have been missed unless the FBI had an upclose and personal contact with Cooper. It is that little something that a witness sometimes remembers after the initial interview that can solve a crime or something that a family member recalls about things already discussed. You should have followed your own good advice and kept notes, taken photographs, noted license plate numbers, asked angel Udell her name and address, talked to other angels & saints to find out where in Heaven Udell could be reached since she was your savior and so vital to your case. You did not follow your own good advice but you dont mind holding others and the FBI responsible for something you did not do yourself. But, there is something else equally large and decisive - since you bring old-timers up. Jerry Thomas is not the only resident of the State of Washington involved in this case! Jerry Thomas is and was not, the single-sole searcher/sleuth/case worker/friend of the FBI, etc ... and none of the rest of the other people in Washington could make any sense of your stories either. That is just a fact. It cannot be Camus one day and Apple Park the next, or Orchards vs Camus, or smoke jumping vs military trained, etc etc etc. It cannot be geographical locations and markers so obscure (in the middle of the night) that no one in the whole State of Washington except for your angel Undell can identify these places - You say Duane knew Washington well. Well, better than who? Better than everyone else in Washington? Did Duane know my uncles' back yard better than he himself did? In addition to this, your story has changed and evolved over the years. How did all of this fall on Jerry Thomas' shoulders except through you targeting Jerry and blaming him of all people, and making Mr. Thomas personally responsible? You aren't telling the full story Jo .... You paint this simplistic picture of an FBI failing to do its job when in reality there have been many divisions of law enforcement and others involved in this case. As well as private citizens and forensic experts from all over the USA. You pose a simplistic solution through your story about Duane (who you were only married to on paper) and it doesnt even begin to mesh with the facts in the Cooper case, or with the greater body of facts about Duane Weber. How do account for the fact that Duane's finger or palm prints, or any other prints from Duane, were not found at the crime scene or anywhere else in the whole case? And you cannot even provide angel Udell's name or the license plate number from her truck? Nobody else can come up with a name or the business identity of Udell you claim. You go to Washington for a brief visit and wind up knowing more about Udell than Udell does about herself ... actually himself! You talk about the old-timers in and around lower Washington, but you cannot name one of them who can confirm or connect any part of your story. This is completely separate and independent of Jerry Thomas. Jerry Thomas is just one person you interacted wth briefly - others also live in Washington/Oregon. Jerry is not the only ground searcher familiar with lower Washington! The telling fact is, you and your Duane story are only one small facet of the entire DB Cooper story. It truly is that small, insignificant, and silly. Jerry Thomas and Ralph Himmelsbach know this. You do not or you refuse to acknowledge it. It's time for you & others to come up to speed in the Cooper case. That's my perspective on this and always has been -

However, I did say it was an "old saying". I think 600 years is pretty old.

Nigel99, Give me an e-mail address (not this site PM) to send them and I will send you he following hi-res USGS TOPOs that cover the FBI original DZ: Ariel Quadrangle North.jpg (1,867 KB) Ariel Quadrangle South.jpg (1,741 KB) Woodland Quadrangle North.jpg (1,929 KB) Woodland Quadrangle South.jpg (1,958 KB) Seamless Hot Zone North.jpg (2,698 KB) Seamless Hot Zone South.jpg (2,629 KB) The Ariel Quad is the East Part if the Hot Zone, The Woodland Quad is the West part of the hot zone. The seamless maps are the North and South parts of both quads. This way you can pick a spot and know the elevation (within 40 feet). These are all I have on my laptop (I’m on the road tonight). If you need other areas, I can get them for you when I get home (Monday). I have all the USGS 1:100,000 and 1:24,000 maps of Oregon and Washington. These are much better than the MapTech Topos. Send me an e-mail address by PM, e-mail, or post here and tell me which ones you want. I’ll send them immediately. My private e-mail is: walkertrain at hotmail dot com This offer is extended to all. Sluggo_Monster By the way Sluggo, I want to publically apologise for the KKK photo I posted in a reply to Jo - I realise now it offended you deeply even though my post and the photo had absolutely nothing to do with you. You werent even in my mind when I made that post. I will also apologise for any remarks I made afterwards when you surfaced saying you were upset. I certainly could not underdstand why you were upset since the posting and the photo had nothing to do with you, but some people are sensitive and I guess in this case I did the wrong thing, and Im sorry you were so upset. Thanks, Georger

Georger, throw a bone out there. I am willing to discuss any new topics. I have a lot of thoughts on the case, but I am always fearful of rehashing things your group has already discussed. Sorry - I have had other things going on so could not concentrate to address this specifically - - - State whatever ideas, questions, etc you have. People here will address them. That is all there is to this - no need to worry about anything, so far as I am concerned - - - Georger

That's actually from the Tao Te Ching, book number 56. http://www.terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap56 More or less 600 BC. extracted from the Wilhelm edition, forward by Karl Jung. http://www.iging.com/ Originally assembled as a book of wisdom from verbal traditions and symbols on tortoise shells going back several thousand years. Some of the symbols may have been numbers. Only later made into a system for divination linked to numbering because people thought there was something special in numbers themselves. A number of cultures spawned similar systems including the Norweagians. One of the people in the Terebess you cite is I believe an astrophysicist who helps edit a publication on variable stars for the IAU, at their Budapest office.

Georger, throw a bone out there. I am willing to discuss any new topics. I have a lot of thoughts on the case, but I am always fearful of rehashing things your group has already discussed. It must come from an unimpeachable source Jo has no access to, doesnt know exists, and cannot subvert.

Intelligence is as intelligence does!

What's unusual about that? Everyone knows he was a criminal. What is unusual about a thief coming back with stolen money? I seriously doubt Duane was competent at anything or had any important connections. A dreamer. Ckret said as much. Jo is an ad-man competing with real fact that the FBI has. That Jo was able to dominate this forum at all says more about this forum and the people in it, than anything else. That, and the voluminous lack of specific facts even available to the public to discuss, much less in the hands of anyone who has even been here. That is a strong statement on my part but absolutely true and self evident, from the thousands of posts since this forum started. It is not an excuse, just a fact. It is not Jo's fault since she doesnt have any facts that matter either. We all may know this including Jo, but nobody is willing to say so ... If it has been deception as Snow contended then it is only self-deception, with some being bigger deceivers here than others. But you Orange1 have been a constant light throughout.

Let me use your expression B'shit. I have told you that I never met Jerry, I was in WA in 2001 with the crew. I met Himmelsbach and one of the Fazio brothers - that is it . I cannot possilbly know what Tina and the others went thru and do NOT compare my journey to theirs. I will say this again as nice as I can. The way you and some others take my words and twist them so as to not resemble in anyway what I was trying to say - is why I do not think anyone would want to come forward regarding a suspect or with new evidence. This is an example of how they can expect to be treated. This whole conversation came about from (My voicing an opinion) about statements made by Bruce regarding Tina that others and I did not feel were appropriate and then suddenly it is about me again. Go figure! You are just misunderstood, but always get the first and last word.

How do you know what is in Tina's or anyone's mind today, or then!? You have no involvement. The problem is your trying to climb into or speak for the mind of Tina (or anyone!) when it is they involved, and not you. It can only be a guess on your part. Most of us have enough problems just speaking for ourselves, let alone others. And especially as it relates to matters of evidence in this case. Keep in mind nobody here that I know has read any of the transcripts or heard any of the recordings of testimony anyone gave in this case, and I doubt any of us ever will - This may also be a pretty good example of the kind of thing Jerry and others had to contend with when you arrived in 2001, in my estimation. But your task is in proving Duane was Cooper. Tina and others lived it! You did not live the event. At best you lived some piece of the aftermath, if that much is even true and it is only you who say it is true. That is a light- year away from what the actual participants went through. And to my mind, you show none of the symptoms of having been the spouse of someone who did the actual hijacking. (Did Duane live his life as if he expected the FBI to show up at his door any moment? You dont show the symptoms of having lived longterm with someone like that, and there are other symptoms and contradictions I wont even mention). So what is it you are in this for, compared to the survivors of flight #305 and what they did with their lives before and after the event? You will never be in the shoes of those who were aboard flight #305. Most people take that as a natural fact and just go on living.

Bullsh*t, Jo. Are you really comparing yourself to Tina? Your "facts" and "statements" insofar as they can be said to be such, have no provable link to the DB Cooper case whatsoever. Tina was there, she was a witness. Her statements and others are available. You show me where the media has taken any direct witness statements and "twisted" and "turned" them etc. you see this is the basic difference between a real fact with a demonstrable connection to the case, and a flight of fancy. She wouldn't have to make any "claims" at all; all she would have to do is simply state what she remembers (and admit what she doesn't). Most people would accept that. The only people I could think of that wouldn't, in fact, are people like you with agendas to prove that a particular person was Cooper. Tina by her actions appears to have made it clear she wants to be left in peace. I do hope that will be respected by others who claim to have respect & understanding for witnesses. Brilliant. Simply brilliant. And compassionate too!

Astounding! You talk like you are Tina Mucklow, were one of the principals on board flight #305, and have been struggling for years because YOU were hijacked on 11-24-71! Georger that is not fair. My life has been altered by his confession and what I have been thru the last few yrs. NO, I wasn't on that plane and I cannot even imagine the fear they must have felt. I am only talking about the media aftermath and how if affects lives. Fair or not, it is accurate. 100% accurate.

Astounding! You talk like you are Tina Mucklow, were one of the principals on board flight #305, and have been struggling for years because YOU were hijacked on 11-24-71! And you wonder WHY this forum has no credibility! And you aren't Greta Garbo or Eleanor Roosevelt either.

It has been reported that the case file is over 60 volumes thick! Over 1000 suspects! Back in 1971 we did not have super computers to bring all of the information together. All the FBI needs to do now is turn over everything they have to the DZ community and we can solve this thing! The kinds of questions you're raising would have been answered at the case-management level. Nobody here has ever addressed the issue. We dont even know who the case managers were. Sluggo did publish a list of sp agents in charge through the years, but not any case manager. Going back to Tina, I cant see that Tina deflected or changed in any way, what Cooper set out to do. Their relationship was temporary and passing. I think public attention has been more difficult to handle for some people, than the hijacking itself was.

This place just isn't the same without Snowmman. Come on, put in an appearance Snow. Sluggo squawked Mode C. Don't act like an F 117 or B 2. Let's see an echo. SAGE operators are standing by. 377 Snow may be busy chasing pirates. Sluggo may be busy negotiating with them?