georger

First off, they didnt confess. Others confessed for them or alleged they were ..... this n' that. Write about the facts(for a change).

Some of the old barnstormers were fearless and stupid. I ran into a number of these in AK one summer/fall (lake jumpers who thought they were flying submarines). I saw one guy collapse three sets of landing gear in three weeks (until he got fired). He was flying the next day for another company. I have often wondered if one of this type was Cooper. These guys will do anything ! But this type isnt on Ckret's list, which may be a mistake. (It could also account for the person not having any family in WA?) This type wouldnt even hesitate to bail into the woods...

It puzzles me too SKYWHUFFO. I made over 100 round jumps and two of them were VERY hard pulls on rental gear, a 28 ft sleeved C9 crammed into a very tight unextended surplus container. Scary as hell and unlike Cooper, I had a reserve. Back in the day there was no AFF. They tossed you out and it was up to you to teach yourself freefall stability. I tumbled wildly in every axis before I finally got the knack. It was so discouraging and frightening. Trying to manage a hard pull while tumbling and screaming past your hard deck is something you never forget. You become obessed with pulling, making the damned thing work. You focus on it with incredible intensity, shutting out all other thoughts. I should have just gone to my reserve but there is something about the situation that erases rational assessment. Many jumpers without AADs have gone in as no pulls, fighting a balky main deployment system right into the ground. Sometimes in their panic, they fixate on the wrong item to pull and go in pulling wildly at webbing rather than a ripcord handle or pilot chute hackey. Why anyone would pack a really hard pull on a bailout rig baffles me. Maybe the rigger was the typical jumpship owner hiring a kid pilot for peanuts who is trying to build time. I think your description above is pretty good. Now if Cooper had experience how did he fare? If he didnt have experience?!! But the old posts I posted covered these issues. Cossey told Ckret he packed as he did "because I can". Remember it was for his own personal use. And Guru did a good job of explaining it, as he sees it. Cossey is right handed.

Again: the two front reserves came from the flight school off a shelf. Cossey provided the two back packs from his home including a hard pull nb8/nb6 "which he had packed for his own personal use". Ckret posted as follows: Ckret Jun 12, 2008, 9:28 PM Post #2512 of 2519 (53 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 350 Sluggo, The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey's chutes, he had them at his house, they weren't at Seattle Skysports. I asked Cossey why he packed a 28 foot canopy in the NB6 and he just shrugged. Kind of like, "it was my chute, I did it because I can." I like that guy, I could have talked to him all day but he grew tired of me in about an hour. Ckret and: Ckret Jun 13, 2008, 9:56 AM Post #2532 of 2672 (263 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 371 Question about the NB6, now that we have an NB6 expert here. When I talked with Cossey he explained how he configured the chute but did so as if I knew what he was talking about. (you ever talk to someone with so much expertise they don't have the time or desire to take it down a notch) He talked about a two phase pull because of where he placed the handle. (it would have been under the right armpit) He said Cooper would have had to pull fully out and then up to deploy the chute. If he only pulled the handle out the chute would not have delopyed. Can someone tell me if this is normal? Why would there have been a two directional pull? Nitrochute then posted as follows: nitrochute PM Friend JumpsLicenseIn sport : 3500: D : 42 years Jun 13, 2008, 11:00 AM Post #2549 of 2672 (176 views) Registered: Apr 7, 2004Posts: 216 Re: [Ckret] Skydivers, I need your HELP! - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply i have never seen an nb6/8 with the ripcord located on the right side mai n liftweb(unless it was a military rig modified for use as a sport main parchute).it is designed (as all military pilot rigs are) with the ripcord on the left main liftweb.for the reasons that guru stated, it would be dangerous to have moved the r/c to the right side main liftweb (what we call an outboard pull)it exposes the r/c to a greater risk of snagging or getting grabbed by a student who is panicking.i think maybe cossey is either mistaken or getting senile. it DOES NOT make sense that he would have configured it that way. as to the 2 stage pull.yes most any ripcord deployed system requires a 2 stage pull, the 1st stage is to remove the handle from its pocket, the second stage is actually to pull on the handle to extract the pins and open the container.the direction of pull to extract the pins depends on the type of rig. a backpack you pull down and out toward your feet .that is because the metal r/c housing(,the metal tube that the ripcord cable travels in to go from the front of the harness to the top of the parachute container,)travels up and over your left shoulder on a back type parachute.[right shoulder if outboard pull].if you pull sideways ,there is so much friction between the r/c cable and the housing that you may not be able to pull it.the pull that cossey suggested is for a seat type parchute where the r/c housing comes up from the left side of the seat pack (on your butt) to the left side main lift web.i have never seen a stock military harness backpack(from that era) where the r/c housing comes off the bottom of the container and then upwards toward the main liftweb. Nirochute again: nitrochute JumpsLicenseIn sport : 3500: D : 42 years Jun 13, 2008, 4:03 PM Post #2560 of 2673 (299 views) Registered: Apr 7, 2004 Posts: 216 Re: [Ckret] money - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply hmmmm....it appears that cossey modified the location of the ripcord.but i still am unclear on why he would do that. i have in 40+ years never seen somone do such an odd mod to a pilot emergency chute. was cossey a pilot as well as a rigger /jumper? and the chute was used strictly by him when he flew jumpers?. it seems such an odd set up from your description. does cossey have any interest in joining us on this forum?if it was set up that way i can almost guarantee that cooper bounced because it is such an odd configuration. and Guri312 replied to the above: Guru312 JumpsLicenseIn sport : 900: C 6814: 48 years Jun 13, 2008, 6:37 PM Post #2565 of 2673 (241 views) Registered: Sep 3, 2003 Posts: 247 Re: [Ckret] money - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply In Reply To Does this make sense? or did he just demonstrate right handed and he really meant left? Yes! It certainly does make sense. It is brilliant, actually. I have 2000 hours flying jumpers with about 1000 hours flying for a heavily first jump oriented DZ on the Eastern Shore of Maryland known as Pelicanland. I was always expecting a student to freak-out and grab onto me screaming, "I'm not leaving this airplane!" As I've written, I put a 28 into an NB-6 because I didn't want a potentially hard landing under a 26. The more difficult hard pull was a bonus for protecting me from the nutty first time grabbers. I would guess that Cossy or the pilot for whom he packed the rig would want the larger, easier landing canopy for the same reason I would. His idea for the rip cord under the right arm is brilliant! Only under the left arm would be better than under the right. Second reason for the ripcord postion as described under the right arm allows for the best possible body position when diving out the door. Your right hand can easily grab the handle and push out, Superman style with the right thumb hooked inside the handle, as the pilot jumps out. My hat's off to Cossey. I wish I had thought of it. OK...what's next? Guru. Ckret replied: Ckret Jun 13, 2008, 10:13 PM Post #2575 of 2673 (127 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 371 Re: [snowmman] virtual knapsack? - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply Snowmman, The problem is the witnesses saw the bag attached around his waist. So I don't think your chest theory would work out. Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it's owner. One more thing that just hit me, Cooper was given an instruction sheet on the chutes, wonder if it was Cossey trying to tell Cooper, "there's something you should know about one of these chutes...." Regardless, all the pieces matter and only by running them into the ground (as painful as it is) can we be sure we are getting it right. and ... Ckret Jun 14, 2008, 3:13 PM Post #2600 of 2675 (123 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007 Posts: 371 Re: [happythoughts] money - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply I want to make sure everyone understands that the instruction sheet offered to Cooper may or may not have come from Cossey. I think it was a bit odd to offer instructions to Cooper when he made no request for them. And from what we now know the NB6 was altered to the point that even an experienced skydiver may have had difficulty with it. From this, I think that maybe Cossey knew this and wanted to warn anyone who my try to use it. Total guess on my part, but the two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey's house. i don't think he had a manufactures instruction sheet laying around that he sent with them. Let's just say that a parachute dedicated to emergency use (a pilot rig) might be considered more reliable than a sport main. The emergency rig has to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, while a sport main may be packed by the person making the jump. If Cooper had experience walking around the back of a plane dropping objects, he would have been wearing a pilot emergency rig, not a sport rig. The sport rig would have modifications unfamiliar to a load master. It makes sense to stick with something familiar. ..............................

The question in my mind is when "carabiners" would have become fashionable or a standard implement for people trained or coming out of the 30s and 40s, which is Cooper's generation? What group of people were using carabiners as a standard device by 1971? Tina saw no evidence of carabiners. What she saw was Cooper cutting shock chords and tying ... after Cooper had already tried using the reserve bag as a container which proved too small . . . Would the average person in 1971 even have known what a carabiner was? It would be generations before they would hit the open market at places like K-Mart, Target, and then later Walmart and Tru Value or Ace Hardware stories (to be used by every kid with a school back pack). My concern is that cultural goggles now are affecting what reality was in 1971 ?

Cossey said he packed it for his own personal use and basically selected it by mistake in a rush, if I have the story correct. If what I have been told is correct (by people who know Cossey), Cossey is still perturbed to this day over how the chutes got selected, the rushed conditions, the poor communications at the time, and he feels mistakes were made that did not need to be made which resulted in a hasty selection of the chutes that were delivered and then whisked away without due consideration. That is the version I have been given by people who know Cossey personally. I will not reveal their names in order to protect Cossey and these sources. If what I am saying in not correct then I accept full responsibility for having published an untruth. If Cossey or the FBI want to issue a statement on this that is their prerogative. But, I am NOT the only person who has spoken to these people who has been given this story. (I know this sounds almost like something Jo Weber would weave, but this is what I have been told ...) In addition, others who know Cossey posted similar versions of the above many months ago at this forum... anyone can look those posts up. What I am saying comes directly from people in Washington who know Cossey personally who I talked with directly many months ago as the science panel was being formed. Basically Cossey is saying the selection of the hard pull NB6 and the sewn reserve were both mistakes done in haste because Cossey had not been given the full story on what the chutes were for, or these chutes would not have been selected. There may be more to this story. Whatever the case is, I think it is fortunate Cossey has been forthcoming enough to state what he has about the chutes in question. My personal inclination is not to press this any further because ultimately the FBI and Cossey can speak for themselves if and when they chose to do so at their own pleasure - I have never spoken to Cossey myself, personally. I decided a long time ago not to bug the man or infringe on his privacy.

I thought it was remarkable (and unexpected) that virtually every diver here went straight to the issue of stability and rope tying around waste of the money bag (21lbs) ... this seemed to stand out for divers here in spite of what else was being discussed, and in spite of everyone knowing that paratroopers carry auxiliary loads, etc. Maybe implicit in the thoughts of divers here was or is: 'that Cooper is a novice' ? People didnt say that openly but maybe they were all thinking it? Ckret has always been convinced Cooper was a novice, after Ckret got the opinions of dozens of people including military experts. That said, I think it is the "rope tie" people here saw as the vulnerable issue? Now if D rings and clips had been used or were available, then opinions change. But Cooper actually asked for a back pack to take the money in. He never got the back pack. But how was he going to secure any back pack? And did he ask for a back pack at all because he knew other standard containers he might get, had flaws for securing them? Does the fact he wanted a back pack make him more or less knowledgeable in this whole matter? Maybe he just assumed whatever rigs he would get would have D-rings? (An assumption like that would point to an amateur?). But it is totally obvious the divers here know their stuff! Pages 0-50 prove that hands down. Its a tribute to everyone who posted in that section.

They are if you want to have the majority of your troops being able to walk after they land. All you have to do is look at the injury rates on D-Day landings to see that. And for the most part, they had very specific drop zones already established. A far cry from what Cooper would have been potentially dealing with. Isn't that the point though Quade - the military is prepared to suffer high injury rates to get something done? At least as far as I understand. In one of the extracts I posted a long time ago, I think while we were talking about Christiansen or Gossett, there was a paragraph describing how they would jump in bad weather over uncertain terrain. By the way, am I missing something, or would weather/terrain have any bearing on whether you used SL or freefall to exit? interesting article here: http://www.historynet.com/leonard-rosen-82nd-airborne-paratrooper-in-word-war-ii.htm some extracts: (this is re the invasion of Sicily) (it is unclear what % of this was during the drop and what was in fighting on the ground) I don't know how to get this properly http://books.google.co.za/books?id=QFZ8G-SmVk0C&pg=RA1-PA12&lpg=RA1-PA12&dq=injury+rate+paratrooper+d-day&source=bl&ots=6B6SxU3ssg&sig=pAJejRrprbbI5gXzr3PGnkY4MF4&hl=en&ei=E1UZSvX4I5vMMvTd7YsP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#PRA1-PA12,M1 but on the page re June 6 it notes that "the parachute jump as a method of mass deployment rose and fell with World War II, since high attrition rates from injury and scattering of forces made it a liability". A couple of pages later on the book describes how many of the intended DZs were unidentified by the pathfinders because of cloud cover etc interfering with their own drops. It later talks about one colonel ending up with only 150 out of an expected 600 men because most of the drops had gone astray. And more recently: http://d.wanfangdata.com.cn/NSTLQK_NSTL_QK8234115.aspx Looks like a very high load to me; and these guys probably had somewhat better control than the WW2 jumpers? In any case; we have no idea where Cooper's DZ was, or whether it was intended, unintended (jumping later than expected) or if he simply had no idea where he would end up landing...! Ive been reviewing all the old posts (taken me days). Several things stand out. (1) very high quality of skydivers responding, generally. These people know their stuff. (2) Survived-Not Survived split almost 50- 50%. Injured-Not Injured split almost 50%. Most common point of uncertainty in all opinions: "the terrain he landed in". Skill level of Cooper does not seem to play as large a role in people's minds as "the terrain he landed in". (3) Primary skill issue cited: Hard pull and stability. Opinions seemed splintered and uncertain on these issues. No consensus. (4) Issue of greatest unanimity (which surprised me!): "The way Cooper tied the money off around his waste". Almost every skydiver who posted brought this issue up independently as something that posed the most vulnerable link, in Cooper's bailout scenario. Almost every skydiver who posted felt Cooper tying the money bag off around his waste was a mistake and posed serious problems for stability and losing the money bag! Almost every skydiver who posted brought this matter up independent of what was being discussed at the time. The unintended consensus of skydivers here is there is a very good chance Cooper got separated from the money bag, whatever happened to Cooper himself. And by extension, the fact the money turned up at Tina Bar almost assures Cooper bailed in the lower quadrant of Washington somewhere before Portland. If there is a consensus on this point by the skydivers who have posted it is that all other considerations of flight path et cetera are secondary to the money turning up at Tina Bar, and the money at Tina Bar relates directly in some manner to the area Cooper jumped into (whether that be in the Washougal, LaCamas, or further west more toward Vancouver).

I don't see you as naive, but as one of those (rare?) people who always look for the positive side in other people. It's a good trait

Thats the kind of expression I appreciate and its well-taken here. Actually I do kind of marvel at Jo's flexibility, given her age. Her mental ability (agility) is far over the curve, as these things go. Jo would be my number-1 candidate for metabolic and neurological tests in her age class. She must have damned good genes! On the other hand, we all see signs of breakage (entropy) now and then. In spite of this Jo forges ahead and few can match her. Most people justs give up after severtal tries, probably a bit mystified and pissed they have been outdone by a 70+ year old woman. So I actually agree with you on your own perceptions along these lines. I also see Jo as ruthless, stubborn, and slightly demented. If Jo actually had a case she would be her own worst enemy. If Jo had a case I would have backed her 100%; she probably senses that. The sorry part is it will all go nowhere. But, it will go further than most of the rest of us will stay with! Jo is completely transparent but also a riddle, all at the same time. It's no wonder people get fascinated...

Jo faults the FBI for its dna evidence then turns around and says: "They retrived DNA from me in March of 2003, but I have not heard anything and they never returned the item. I was not foolish enough to give them all that I had. " (Nov 14 2006) It is 100% obvious through all of Jo Weber's posts she has been playing games with everyone since the very start of this thread ... claiming things she does not have, then witholding things she says but turns out she doesnt have .... even screwing around with the FBI, by her own words! That is NOT the sign of somebody anxious to find the truth and know the truth, but somebody manufacturing truth (alleged), and screwing with everyone in the process including YOU! And she damns the FBI telling everyone they werent serious? Jo has been feeding a frenzy in her Jerry Springer style.

Jo, Do you have info that smoke jumpers made free fall ripcord pull jumps in the 1940s or at any time? That is something I did not know. I though all their jumps were S/L. 377 Does this help? One of Jo's old posts... ................................................................ skyjack71 Send a Private MessagePM Add to FriendsFriend Jumps License In sport : : : Nov 12, 2006, 10:40 PM Post #1 of 6 (3254 views) Registered: Nov 12, 2006 Posts: 1399 Re: [BIGUN] Skydiving History - by Dr. Eco Quote | Reply In Reply To By Dr. Eco Bob Buquor, first 6 man star, early D-License Holders with comments, Up date from the Pacific Northwest. I had about 50 jumps with Bob Buquor at the Arvin DZ. With most of them, Bob was taking photo's with his motorized 35 mm Nikon mounted on his helmet. I knew Bob from San Antonio, Texas before we both ended up in California. Bob had a low C license number C-150 but never got around to applying for his D license because he thought that C-150 would look better than a higher number D license (ahhh, vanity). Bob was trying to make it in the movie business. He shot freefall sequences for part of the "Rip Cord" series and for several movies. At that time, I was a 1st Lieutenant in the USAF at the Flight Research Center at Edward's AFB Calif. I had applied for my D license earlier while still at the University of Texas working on my PhD. I did most of my California sport jumping at the Lancaster DZ which was close to Edwards AFB. However, Bob and I would get together at Arvin to jump. Bob shot the photo's when we made the "First Six Man Star in the World" September 6, 1964, at Arvin, California." The photo of the Six Man Star was the centerfold of Skydiver Magazine. Another Skydiver Magazine centerfold showed the same group of jumpers leaving the Twin Beach. After 1965, I did more flying than jumping and got my commercial, instrument, multi-engine and flight instructor pilot ratings. Richard Economy D-115 See List of Early D license holders below. The Bob Buquor Memorial Star Crest The Bob Buquor Memorial Star Crest (BBMSC) is a perpetual memorial to commemorate the efforts of the late Robert H. Buquor who played a major role in the origin of star formation relative work. Bob Buquor initiated and photographed the majority of the star attempts at Arvin, California in the early 1960's and was successful in capturing the first 8-way star there on film on October 17, 1965. Bob drowned off Malibu Beach, California in 1966, while filming a dangerous movie sequence for a major studio. It is to his driving enthusiasm in this aspect of the sport that this membership is dedicated. Note: Bob was a good swimmer and would not have drowned if he would have dumped his helmet with a large 35mm movie camera mounted on it and the large heavy battery pack attached to his waist. But good jumpers never dropped ripcords handles or dump large expensive cameras in the ocean. The camera and battery pack were recovered along with Bob's body. http://www.scr-awards.com/ Star Crest Awards See below for all Star Crest Awards http://www.scr-awards.com/bbmsc_the_beginning.html The was no Accelerated Freefall program, no AAD's, no Dytters, no altimeters and no packers. Your main canopy was a 28-foot round. Your reserve was a 24-foot flat circular canopy. All of which were purchased as "military surplus." And then, you had to convince some pilot that it was a good idea to take you up to five thousand feet, open the door, fling yourself out and learn... See below for all Star Crest Awards First 6 Man Star Photo by B Buquor September 6, 1964. Arvin, California John DePorter Mitch Proteet -Black on left Richard Economy -Yellow Lou Paproski Don Henderson -Purple Al Paradowski List of Early D License Holders Note: I do not have all of the comments from other jumpers entered into the list. You could update the list with the additional comments from other jumpers. DrEco Dear Dr. Economy: It good to hear for an early D license holder. We are working on the electronic version of the "A", "B", "C" and "D" License holders. I was able to complete the list for D License numbers 1 through 400 for your use. Please see list attached. If you should have any further questions, please feel free to contact us. Blue Safe Skies, April 20, 2003 Michelle Garvin Director of Membership Services USPA Alexandria, VA Note on D-License numbers: By December 1961, I had over 200 free fall jumps (I had no static line jumps) but had never applied for PCA (later called USPA) membership or for an PCA: A, B or C Licenses (Note: In Central Texas in early 1960's, no one paid much attention to the PCA, their safety rules, or their license) I had all the requirements for my D-License and applied to the PCA for membership and my D-License in late 1961 when the D-License numbers were in the 50's. I got my D-License over six months later in May 1962 with a D-License Number of 115 over 60 numbers higher. I talked to a guy who had been at Orange, Mass. (the old PCA headquarters) and he told me that Istel and the other officers at the PCA had given priority for low D-Licenses to 1) their long term PCA members with A, B, C License, 2) jumpers from the major PCA approved DZ's i.e. California; 3) their buddies at Orange and other New England DZ's; and 4) to the Army jumpers e.g., Golden Knights. Based on my application date, he said my D-License should have been in the 70 to 80 range (oh well!!) Note:I had between 20 to 50+ relative work jumps with the following Bold Underlined D license holder. List of Early D License Holders: No. - Location - Name 1 MA Lewis B Sanborn 2 MA Jacques A Istel 3 MA Dana Paul Smith 4 MA Darius Vakharia 5 PA Steve Snyder 6 MO George P Taylor 7 AK Heisel Christian 8 VA Verlin Glenn 9 CA Lt. James P Pearson 10 NY Robert M McDonnell 11 GA Danny Byard 12 NC Loy Brydon 13 NY Jim Arender 14 Ernest Lynn Pyland 15 NC Merrill L Shepard 16 MA Edward F Strong 17 Ray Love 18 KY Michael Kremar 19 Jack Helms 20 NC Herry E Arter 21 MA Mark Schmidt 22 NC Gerald F Bourquin 23 PA William C Edge 24 PA Robert Spatola 25 NC Harold R Lewis 26 MA William G Jolly 27 Lee Ray K Smith 28 GA Elfers, William 29 KY Kirtley, Thomas 30 NY MacPherson, Allan 31 MA Straus, Bradford 32 Unziker, William J. 33 CA Hulick, Gerald W. 34 PA Bahor, Erick M. 35 KY Meyers, Lee A 36 OH Reed/Sherman Wilson 37 TX Duncan/Edmond C 38 NC Fortenberry, Richard T 39 NC Jorgensen, Keith C 40 NC Dunphry, Richard 41 NC Martin, Roy D 42 TX Jacks, Clyde E. I had about 50 Jumps with Clyde who had Gold Wings 1 or 2. With about 1500 jumps he was killed doing low altitude rolls in his stunt plane near Houston, Texas in Nov., 1962. 43 CA Pol, James E. 44 OH Harding, Daniel E 45 CA Skinner, Robert W. 46 IN MacPherson, Dennis H 47 FL Poppenhager, Paul J. 48 VA Hale, Roger, C. 49 MA Moge, Maurice R. 50 NJ Guilfoyle, Lee 51 CA Stevens, Perry D. 52 CA Murry, robert A. 53 CA Duncan, Edmond C. 54 CA Williams, Verne 55 CA Kilsow, Arthur 56 FL Brezin, Ben 57 MN Mathwig/Jerry E 58 MO Williams, Douglas E 59 CA Kochenberg, Dale R. 60 IL Stoyas, James C. Creamed In 1982 61 APO NY Chace, John P. 62 NC Ward, Richard F. 63 CA Simbro, Henry L. Jumped with Hank and Muriel at Lancaster, Taft and Arvin DZ's 64 CA Percival/John Moring 65 WI Goetsch/Phillip L 66 APO NY Charland, Normand E. 67 GA Edwards, Roy L.D. 68 OH Beyan, Dennis P. 69 VT Pond/Nathan 70 KY McDonald/Coy O 71 NC Letbetter, Bobby W. 72 SD Smith/Richard Nelson 73 NC Hollis/John T 74 AZ Hirschberg/Kenneth Allen 75 NC Perry, James M 76 CA Buckner, Robert H, Jr. 77 NC Norman, Joe 78 CA Muriel, Jean Simbro Wife of Henry Simbro D-63 79 NJ O'Reilly, James J. 80 NC Yost, Charles E. 81 FL Benoit, Chritten P. 82 NC Cole, Ray S., Jr. 83 CO McCarthy/William E 84 CA Cupp, Jack M. Jumps with Cupp at Lancaster, Taft and Arvin DZ's. 85 OH McLean, Howard 86 CA McClellan, Haynes, F. 87 NC Mills, Wesley G., Jr. 88 FL Horvath, Martin J. 89 TX Fitch, Edward D. Dr. Fitch (C-198), a friend of Clyde Jacks, was a Heart Surgeon in Houston. Had about 30 jumps with Fitch at Bee Line and Midway DZ's near Houston,Texas 90 NC Charette/Wja 91 OH Gates/Dale V/ Jr 92 NC Webber, Claude A 93 OR Scott, John A 94 MO Garrison, James W. 95 CA Molitar, Don Jumps with Molitar at Taft and Arvin DZ's. 96 SC Coleman/Maurice C 97 OH Draper, John D. 97-A NC Palmer, Ralph K. 98 PA Pasquale, John F. 99 NC Williford, Sherman H. 100 FL Shuford, Richard H. 101 PA Yurchison, John 102 NY Markhoff, William C. 103 WA Ady, Jack 104 NY Feeney/Gene F 105 NC McCusker, James 106 MI Allen, Fred L. 107 MI Raddick, Robert A. 108 OH Baron, Mark 109 CA Sellers, John M. 110 CA Haring, Robert 111 CA Carpenter, Frank Jumps with Carpenter at Taft and Arvin DZ's 112 FL Wright, Harold L. 113 CA McDonald, James P. 114 TX Anagnostis/Constantine B 115 TX Economy, Richard First Jump: a jump/pull from J3 Cub April 1960 at Casterville, Texas. Third Jump:12 second delay freefall from 3500 ft from J3 Cub with no sleeve (hard opening). Fourth jump:15 second delay freefall from 4000 ft from J3 Cub. Used a sleeve for the first time (big difference). Jump 7: Landed in Mitchell lake. Jump 8: a night jump. Spotted for myself the first 10 jumps. 116 CA Sewell, Ronald D. Jumps with Ron Sewell at Lancaster 117 JAPAN Adair, Willie (Duke) 118 FL Mathews/Robert Anthony/Jr 119 APO NY Lanier, Robert H. 120 WA Peterson, Cal 121 FL Kruse, Edward P. 122 FL Picard, Harold W. 123 NM Mulcalry, George R. 124 CA Martin, Coy D. 125 AZ Jenkins/Steve 126 FL Godwin/Jimmy F 127 FL Gaffney, John D. 128 VA Waugh, Leonard A 129 CO Smith/N Ray 130 CA Flick, Leslie L. 131 Johnson, Howard R. 132 CA McRae, Monte J. 133 TX Lewis, James E. 134 WA Johnston, Howard r. 135 FL Wenk, Peter, J. 136 CA Gividen, George M. 137 CA David, Harold L. 138 WA Gainor/Denny Bear 139 KY Howard, Michael 140 KY Allsopp, Leonard E. 141 SC Selby, Edward B. Jr. 142 TX Fowler/James Floyd/Jr 143 CA Freeze, Ronald S. 144 NC Baker, Alton, W. 145 FL Dupuis, Lawrence 146 CA Lizzio, James R. 147 MA Soutter, Nicholas B. 148 NC Duffy, Ray 149 APO NY Stroughbaugh, Donald 150 NC VanderWeg, Phillip J. 151 KS Passailaigne, Edward P. Jr. 152 TX Wallace, Carlos, G. 153 VA Jones, Sonny 154 HI Gough, Harold W. Jr. 155 NC Saunders, Joseph G. 156 NY Wild, Frederick W 157 AK Sisler, G. Ken 158 IL Morrow, Don 159 FL Addison, Wilbert E. 160 MA Doolittle, Lewis E. 161 NV Evans, Hal 162 CO Driver, William K. 163 KY Kidwell, Jerry G 164 HI Galbraith, Lachlan, N. 165 CA Rinder, James, E. 166 NC Pronier/Robert Anthony 167 NC Thacker/Gene P 168 NC Larry Schell 169 NJ Charles Seymour 170 FL Thomas Rudder 171 CA Padayhag/Stan 172 MS Jerry Price 173 CA Joe Tiago Jr 174 TX Max Schetter 175 KY Lyon/Michael E 176 MI McTaggart/Robert E 177 OH Nininger/Paul W 178 NB Clarence C. Peters 179 IN Jonn Findley 180 AL Buddy L. McCoy 181 CA Doyle Fields 182 FA Ronald G. Diebold 183 NJ Hugh M. Hilden 184 185 PA Fritz A. Muller 186 FL Bob Collinsgru 187 PA Carl E. Blessing 188 PA Owen M. Curran 189 CA Walter C. Scherar 190 NY Philip F. Flynn 191 WA Jim Jacobs 192 FL Norman Roy Johnson 193 TX John Miller 194 MA David B. Jansen 195 NV Robert Archuleta 196 CA Carlyn Olsen ~20 Jumps with Carlyn Olsen at Lancaster, Taft and Arvin DZ's. 197 CA Albert R. Barry 198 WA Ledbetter/William R 199 TX Malcom Thompson 200 NJ Thomas Murray 201 CA Forrest D Castle 202 CA Tyson/Jerome P 203 NB Jay O. Emery 204 CA Denny M. Manning 205 CA Roy A. Fryman 206 TN Dennis T Rhodes 207 NJ William W Bohringer 208 NC Charles L Mullins 209 TX Bobby Dean Crump 210 WI Falconer/Robert Davis 211 OH Raymond M. Starnes 212 NB Stanley Searles 213 CT Ed Vickery 214 NC Paul S Newman 215 NC James C. Lane 216 NJ Theodore O. Taylor 217 FL Gutshall/George A 218 OH Joseph J. Giel 219 FL Charles McSwain 220 FL Potts/Len 221 MI Kim Emmons 222 NB Lowell A Ham 223 NB John Timothy MacFerrin 224 MD Jimmy Grant Roberts 225 TN Bud Sellick 226 CA Enarson/Richard L 227 FL Anthony C Riek 228 FL De La Mar/Donald R 229 NC Zacher/George A 230 NY James E Garvey 231 CA Binford/Frank L 232 DC Richard L Myron 233 WA George F. Mitchell 234 CA Lance S. Haserot 235 NV Ridenour Jr/Whitley A 236 PA Joseph A. Nichols 237 KY Henry Nehrbass 238 NY Thomas E. Waldie 239 WA Buford W. Knight 240 CA Richard Pedley 241 MA Edward A Dorey 242 FL Gary J. Dupuis 243 ME Donahue/Robert L 244 NC Robert L. Donahoe 245 MA Ellsworth H. Getchell 246 NY Robert J. Cathey 247 TX George H. Sage 248 CA Young/Ronald Leo 249 IA John H. Talbott 250 CA McNamara/Brian Michael 251 TX Jeannie McComba ~ 20 jumps with Jeannie (the jump mistress) McComba. Jeannie went in at Ellsinore. 252 CA Leigh R. Hunt 253 CA Dennis P. Moneymaker 254 MD Robert W. Hollar 255 NC Dennis N. McCarthy 256 TX William E. Ritchie 257 VA Sutherland/Thomas Ray 258 CA Joseph Mangine 259 NC Clark/David L 260 CA Ludlow O. Clements 261 NV Floyd A. Martin 262 UT Currie A. Harlacker 263 FL Kauffman/Warren 264 FL Christian K. Ebersole 265 FL Coppe/John Eugene 266 CA Lewis T. Vinson 267 WA Drumheller/Ed/II ~ 30 jumps with Ed at Lancaster DZ's. 268 TX Robert H. Sholly 269 WA Peter A. Goodwin 270 NC Patrick G. Murphy 271 AZ Al J. Hoffman 272 MI Sinclair/Bob Camera man for some of the Rip Cord series. (5) jumps with Sinclair at Califorina City and Lake Elsinor DZ's. Bob was a good camera-man but average at relative-work and did not participate in large relative work jumps. 273 NE Janousek/Marion L 274 MN Burg/Gerald L 275 FL Newton Neidig 276 NB John D. Wade 277 AL Sugg/Samuel E 278 CA James B. Cameron 279 NC Kevin F. Brady 280 AZ Jack Ely 281 MN Richard N. Christenson 282 GA Sims/Dave C 283 GA Edward A. Rector 284 NC Hal T. Baxter 285 IL Stephan J. Wilke 286 WI Herman W. Rockenbach 287 SC Mark T. Graham 288 IL Beverly/Elbert W 289 NC Louis Bell 290 NC Richard Derry 291 CA David Barlow, Jr. 292 FL Howard Curtis 293 NY Frank Richard 294 NC James Bailey 295 NC Jeffrey Dixon 296 PA Charles Murphy 297 NY Patrick Lawton 298 NY William Ottley 299 IL William Martin 300 CA Cornelius O'Rourke, Jr. Creamed in 1965 wearing a Santa Suit from bobfederman@centurytel.net 301 CA Bill Williams 302 NC Jerry Babb 303 MI Karl Brushaber 304 WA Jens Jorgensen 305 MD Robert Buscher, Jr. 306 OK Gerald Roth 307 IA James De Lap 308 CA David Becker 309 NC Robert McDermott 310 AL Dannie Smith 311 CA Lane Smith 312 CA Ronald Wright 313 CA Michael Clancy 314 NY David Lanzendorf 315 KY Robert Eves 316 VA Ronald Anderson 317 CA Burl Baxter 318 KY Larry Caid 319 NY Alva English 320 NC Paul Mac Lean 321 NC William Duncan, Jr. 322 NC William Lockward, Jr. 323 NC Billy Nolan 324 CA John Harrison 325 CA Anne Batterson 326 AK James E. Pullis 327 CA Larry L. Perkins 328 NC Warren E. Farrell 329 IL Oldrich Olichovik Killed Plane crash, Hinckley 1992 330 LA R.L. Ticer 331 MA William T. Hamilton 332 CA Ralph E. Weekly 333 OH Joseph W. Cooper 334 NY Judy Simpson 335 CA Arthur W. Jarrell 336 CA Arthur E. Armstrong 337 CA Donald P. Woerner 338 CA George I. Nicks 339 NY James W. Shaw 340 NC Robert B. Ferguson 341 NC Tod Smith 342 RI Richard D. Yessian 343 OH Andrew N. Starkey 344 CA Jack C. Smith. Jack was the area safety officer at Lancaster and creamed in circa 1966 while working with a freefall student. Had about 30 jumps with Jack. The safety officer was not too safe. 345 CT Roy Bertalovitz 346 NJ Richard C. Lee 347 CA David F. Perry 348 GA David L. Pride 349 CA Bob Allen 350 KA Lloyd Y. Jan 351 TN Jack Norman Jr. 352 PA Harry M. Burlin 353 CA Donald E. Myers 354 IL Walter Huninsky 355 MA David L. Eisner 356 MI Robert E. Tighe 357 MO Jon L. Bergman 358 IL Robert C. Kellen 359 MI Paul E. Yarnell 360 CA Frank M. Collison 361 AK Johnny M. Davis 362 TX Arthur A. Nelbach Jr. 363 UT Jamy M. Minnock Jr. 364 OR James L. Wright 365 OR Evan N. Hale 366 IL Leon Somers 367 TX Dennis A. Clark 368 OR Morton O. Gossett 369 KY Sherman K. Hawkins 370 NY Robert J. Busch 371 WA Charles S. Wallin 372 IL Wernet K. Roth 373 KY Clarence E. Nugent 374 OH Richard L. Bates 375 FL Charles F. Clifford 376 WA Donald M. Stone 377 ND Peter Gange 378 WA Gerald E. Helms 379 NJ David Wignef 380 NY Rudolph P. Ahlgren 381 NC Richard Stanton 382 NC Harold W. Ferguson 383 CA Daryl R. Galloway 384 PA Ed Marler 385 PA John Higgins 386 CA Charles O. Choate 387 MA Arthur P. Spilios 388 IL Michael Ditzig 389 IL Richard N. Roberts 390 MI Billie M. Dolley 391 WA Rudy Peterson 392 NY L. Stanley Zielinski 393 FL John B. Chamberlin 394 OR Ralph A. Hatley 395 OR Joseph M. Brockway 396 WA Richard W. Carlisle 397 NJ David P. Lithgow 398 AL Thomas W. Pritchard, Jr. 399 WA Frank W. Vogt 400 WA William M. Berg All Star Crest Awards http://www.scr-awards.com/bbmsc_the_beginning.html The was no Accelerated Freefall program, no AAD's, no Dytters, no altimeters and no packers. Your main canopy was a 28-foot round. Your reserve was a 24-foot flat circular canopy. All of which were purchased as "military surplus." And then, you had to convince some pilot that it was a good idea to take you up to five thousand feet, open the door, fling yourself out and learn... Updates on D license holder from other Skydivers Gerald Bourquin - D-22 - lives in CA still active jumping. Steve Snyder - D-5 - died in plane crash Denny Gainor - D-138 - Still active at Perris Richard Pedley - D-240 - died on a BASE jump in L.A. Jeannie McCombs - D-251- went in at Ellsinore Ed Vickery - D-213 - Retired from Irvin Aerospace, living in Big Bear, CA Ronald Wright - D-312 - went in CA on demo. Larry Perkins - D-327 - working in aviation, Ellsinore CA Art Armstrong - D-336 - died in Ca Up date from the Pacific Northwest to DrEco: Jerry Baumchen D-1543 (a newbie compared to this list) John Scott - D-93 - John died about 10 yrs ago from a sudden, massive heart attack. Jack Ady - D-103 - I was in the Snohomish area yesterday and decided to go to the airport for lunch and ran into Jack. He is retired, living right off of the airport and got married for the first time about 3 yrs ago; a real optimist. Rich Johnston D-134 - Rich had a stroke just after the first of the year and is now slightly disabled. Hi lives near me and we used to get together every month or so for breakfast or lunch; I hate to visit now in his condition, but I do need to. Jens Jorgeson - D-304 - I haven't seen Jens in over 20 yrs but a mutual friend saw him last summer and said that he is in good health. Jim Wright - D-364 - Jim was killed on a jump about 15-18 yrs ago. Evan Hale - D-365 - I last saw Evan at the memorial for Jim Wright; nothing since. Ralph Hatley - D-394 - Ralph still runs a drop zone and is one of the biggest gear distributors in the world. Joe Brockway - D-395 - Joe retired from the gov't about 15 yrs ago; I last talked to him about 10 yrs ago. I need to call him, also. Dick Carlisle - D-396 - I understand he was killed in a plane crash many, many years ago. Bill Berg - D-400 - Bill was killed flying a forest fire fighting aircraft when she came apart in mid-air. Update from Bob Federman To DrEco: Just in case anyone who knew them might be interested. It was fun going through all of the names; I started jumping in early '64 and a few months later joined PCA & subscribed to Skydiver Magazine. A lot of those names were in those mags many times. And I do remember your photos. Jerry Baumchen D-1543 (a newbie compared to this list) D-60 CREAMED IN 1982, D-300 CREAMED IN1965,WEARING A SANTA SUIT, MY FIRST JUMP INSTR.,D-329 PLANE CRASH,HINCKLEY 1992 bob federman FEDO C-2403,SCR-155 How can I contact this Mr Eco - regarding Claudia Webber. Urgent. This was an AKA used by my deceased spouse - can anyone provide a picture of this Claudia Webber? Does anyone or did anyone know this man? GrabGrass Send a Private MessagePM Add to FriendsFriend Jumps License In sport : 4400 : D 666999 : 25 years Nov 12, 2006, 11:07 PM Post #2 of 6 (3246 views) Registered: Aug 13, 2006 Posts: 349 Re: [skyjack71] Skydiving History - by Dr. Eco [In reply to] Quote | Reply Skyjack71 says: Folks, I need your help. I need to find out about skyjumpers in Georgia and S.C. and AL in 1968-1971. My handle tells the story - I am a 66 yrr old widow of a man who claimed he was D.B.Cooper or as he put it Dan Cooper. I have no knowledge of skyjumping, but when we were in Colorado we went into the mountains and there were jumpers jumping off of the cliffs - I don't remember what it was called, but that is not important. What is important is that he told me everything that they were doing and why they were doing it - this was in 1978 or 1979 and he was over a 50 yrs of age at that time. It was not until his deathbed confession that I understood why he knew all of this. Now after 12 yrs of research I hope I have found the place that can help me. I am not sure where he learned to skydive, but he did - he kept something called a D-ring which was bought off of me at a garage sale after he died and the man paid me a quarter for it and told me what it was...I didn't know the significance of the item because I did not understand what he was trying to tell me in 1996 when he die nor did I know who Dan Cooper was. The purpose of this post is HOW DO I FIND RECORDS OF JUMPERS FROM THAT TIME FRAME IN THOSE AREAS AND/OR PHOTOS OF JUMPERS FROM 1968 TO 1971? Can anyone help me? The FBI has not been of any help at all although they did take his DNA almost 4 yrs (MARCH OF 2003) ago after I had gone public, just to keep me quiet. My old puter crashed and I am having the photos pulled off next wk. I would like to circulate the photos of him from various times in his life to skyjumpers to see if anyone can recognize this man. My research of 10 feet deep is detailed and does everything except put him in a parachute. This is the one thing that will end this. This man I was married to for 17 yrs had been in 6 federal prisons in 7 states for a total of almost 17 yrs before I met and married him. I did not know of his criminal past and we had a good marriage. ANYONE WHO CAN HELP PLEASE CONTACT ME. How can I contact this Mr Eco - regarding Claudia Webber. Urgent. This was an AKA used by my deceased spouse - can anyone provide a picture of this Claudia Webber? Does anyone or did anyone know this man? Hopefull this stand alone will clear up the clutter and maybe help.

MoJo (Oswald) has sent me yet another PM. As promised it was flushed instantly. Here it is: " skyjack71 Date Sent: May 23, 2009, 3:17 PM There is no excuse in a one line reply lilke that. Can't you make with your education a contributory suggestion without bashing Weber - You do your damnest to make him sound sleazy. He did not come from a family that was sleazy - in fact Duane was an embarassment to them. Yes, he led a SLEAZY life - I don't need to be reminded of what I was married to for 17 yrs. I want to find out what made him tick and why he changed his life - I want to understand why he told me the things he did - please allow me that freedom without the heckling. Otherwise you seem like a nice person." In essence Jo is asking us to hold the truth in reserve and not mention or discuss it, so we may procede here at her politeness! Send me more PMs JO so I can flush them too!

Jo, Do you have info that smoke jumpers made free fall ripcord pull jumps in the 1940s or at any time? That is something I did not know. I though all their jumps were S/L. 377 Note the date of Orange's question below: Orange1 Aug 26, 2007, 12:58 PM Post #393 of 1694 (1360 views) Re: [flybounce] D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking [In reply to] I don't want to be part of all this finger pointing but to repeat an earlier question that went unanswered: Jo, in your first post you said you had done everything for the FBI but put Duane in a parachute. Have you yet managed to uncover any evidence that Duane knew how to skydive?" Does time have any meaning here?

Why are you being so ridiculous. I didn't even mention Weber, just making contributions from what I have learned.

Bad-boy Duane has very distinctive facial features. Wouldnt you agree? Note the angular displacement of his nose and lips (lip sag). Who broke his nose for him? And those elf ears! You could claim he had facial reconstruction (plastic surgery) after he hijacked 305 in 1971! Botched job? You could move to England and be well-received and meet the Queen as a celebrity? Got any Soviet secrets to share?

Have you consulted the experts at Static Line Magazine, in existence since 1947? http://www.staticlinemagazine.com/ I would take these true experts over you!

Little did he know at the time, but Hal Williams will never be allowed to forget the man all dressed in black he met 10 years ago on Thanksgiving Eve. Williams was the ticket agent at the gate for the Northwest Orient flight. The man dressed all in black – including a black attaché case – was Dan Cooper, the first hijacker to parachute from a plane. He hasn’t been seen or heard from since. “I couldn’t help but notice him,” said Williams, who operates Royal Oak Furniture Refinishing in Portland. “His clothing was all black, including his shoes and his attaché case. Even his hair was kind of Black” “It was about three in the afternoon, and the other 20 or thirty people waiting for the flight to Seattle were milling around – laughing and back-slapping. But he stood off to himself … very calm and quiet … and looking out the window most of the time.” “No, I didn’t suspect anything bad while observing him. He looked like a sharp businessman to me. But I noticed him quite a bit because his behavior was different from the others, and he was all in black during the day of polyesters and plaids.” And, later in the article: “The FBI talked with xxxxxxxxx years – after the xxxxxxxxx just kept coming back. xxxxxxxxx through my mind once xxxxxxxxx maybe they thought I xxxxxxxxx with Cooper,” Williams xxxxxxxxx “And the people I xxxxxxxxx were always teasing me xxxxxxxxx I was going to do with xxxxxxxxx money. All that talk xxxxxxxxx while, but then it got to xxxxxxxxx And later: It was Williams who xxxxxxxxx Cooper description from xxxxxxxxx drew facial pictures of xxxxxxxxx “The composite drawing xxxxxxxxx [remainder obliterated] It reads like a typical filler story to me, a newspaper would run. It's anecdotal and topical. Fact checking a short article like this will be difficult now. It makes sense Williams would have been among those used to build a physical description with facial composites for Cooper. But the exact history, only the FBI can provide if they even still know it. You might contact Larry Carr in this regard. This is an historical issue you bring up. Primary sources have the most value and only the FBI has those. In the beginning there was much confusion. Why would it be surprising to discover several composites from this period of uncertainty? (None of them remotely look like Duane Weber, for example.) I tend to agree with Ckret who basically said that as time went on descriptions tended to merge and become consistent. That is an equally important fact alongside any 'variance' you find and might think is somehow crucial. But Williams would have been a primary witness, in any event. In addition to balance things out, I do not recall Williams suddenly becoming a celebrity giving and seeking interviews, even in 1981. But whatever post-hoc interviews Williams may have given it must be balanced with his original FBI testimonies and you dont have access to those - One thing that does strike me a bit peculiar is the use of the word "gate" above. "Williams was the ticket agent at the gate for the Northwest Orient flight." I assume they are talking about the ticket counter vrs. boarding gate? Or was Williams in both places and dealt with Cooper personally, twice? Williams does describe watching Cooper along with the rest of the passengers, presumably from the time Cooper purchased his ticket until the passengers as a group boarded the plane. And William's description of Cooper is a bit inconsistent there - Wm's says: "“No, I didn’t suspect anything bad while observing him. He looked like a sharp businessman to me. But I noticed him quite a bit because his behavior was different from the others, and he was all in black during the day of polyesters and plaids.” So is Williams saying: 'I didnt suspect anything bad' .... "But I noticed him quite a bit because his behavior was different from the others..." So Cooper was "different" but that was not "bad". One can almost fill in the rest for the young Williams making such remarks: ie, '... and it was the afternoon just before Thanksgiving and I was anxious to get the hell out of here and get home to my Turkey, my ove interest, and get to Grandma's house!' hee=hee. The rest is Simmonsesque, just as Ckret warned.

This is actually pretty funny. Talk about 'gilding the lily'! So by applying the same logic, if "Ears Weber" had several degrees from prison, cases in the background being investigated, a cane, medication for Polycystic Kidney Disease, a congenital hip problem and that "funny walk" you have always described, a back brace, back support wraps, medication for pain, and whatever other devices and medications Duane had (a long list) .... ALL OF THESE now amount to the core requirements for employment a smoke jumper, spotter, cargo man, or whatever... as defined by you as a replacement for the Congressional-HUD Dictionary of Occupational Titles (HUD) ... because they were traits Duane had? That Duane was the example in the realm of occupational criteria, not the exception to the rule? That's pretty funny, if I may say so. Have you advised the Bureau of Standards that you are replacing them with the Jo Weber Bureau of Standards, all based on Duane-values? So, let's just ignore Duane's elf ears since you and others refuse to discuss that, in order to keep this thread consistent in avoidance-ignorance, but moving along ! So in summation, your case for Duane rests on NOT ONE FACT OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AT ALL. BUT SIMPLY ON STORIES ABOUT EVIDENCE - which conveniently change or do not exist or disappeared without a shred of witness testimony (only your testimony) except that you always claim to have more evidence but you will not show it until the appropriate time, when Venus is in conjunction with Messier-31 in the next century? Have you ever heard the expression: Put up or shut up? You make very powerful claims against the FBI and by extension the US Justice Dept, several Attorney Generals, several FBI Directors, etc etc etc etc. Do you find yourself entertaining? Pst: did Duane have a goiter? Any other growths or tumors consistent with PKD? Diabetes onset date?

As far as I know smoke jumper main chute rigs did not use ripcords. They were static line rigs. There was no need to pull anything with your hands. All this stuff about smoke jumpers and spotters is interesting, because I like aviation history, but I don't see any credible evidence linking Duane to ANY aspect of sport, military or fire fighting parachute operations. Put Duane under a chute or in a jumpship of any kind and I will pay attention. 377 Ah boat its how ya reads da tea leaves and the palms doncha know, down B'hama way. Dat Par Bey and di Sistr Stella. Off shore accounts? An Florida is a lot closer to Cuba than its is to Washignton State, doncha know. Enough for now on da Par Bey thing. But Sistr Stella may have some word of wisdom for ya all.

Darn tootin! Sheknee Canoe and Watty McGiver and Benny Amrbose, all famous hermits, were NEVER investigated by the FBI. Shame on the FBI! Lilly Tomlin was investigated so we can rule her out. Have you and Par Bey ever been investigated? (The Bahamas Par Bey, also spelled Par Beah). Photo attachmonte'. Sister Stella palm readers off shore bring back any memories?

I don't remember my reply and do not go back to look. As for Weber he was known to carry emory cloth in his pockets. Because Duane did commited other crimes after 1971 and the prints never came back to him...still leads me to believe there is a problem with the prints. He was a 6 time felon who was arrested 2 times afterwards - and his prints didn't come back reading Ex-Con. Both incidents involved a gun in his possession. Himmelsbach told me that the FBI did NOT know if any of the prints belonged to Cooper. The prints on the aftstairs could have been there since the plane was built. As far as Ckret revealing anything more to me about Duane's file...It did not happen. He also promised me copies of his files - remember! I never got those. I had a long discussion with Duane's friend and none of the things Jerry ranted about other than Duane mentioning McCoy ever took place. He did not remember more than one or two phone calls and was under the impression he was talking to the FBI. He said it had been too many yrs to remember anything else. I do not mean to tease about the interview with the night clerk - just somethings have to stay confidential until the time is right and definitely NOT in a thread. There are 2 crucial other interviews that need to take place - and they are being handled. As for Ckret - the article on the FBI site was not a very professional thing to do about the Dan Cooper Comics. And that was after he left the forum. Sorry - but review the places he went in his "theory" and then call me "crazy" or claim that I change my story. He is FBI and I am just a simple woman trying tell what I know. If he had done the things he promised to do in the forum - perhaps I might have some answers, but he chose NOT to do as he said he would. With those file I may have found things they didn't see or were unaware of, but it was the choice of the FBI NOT to send me Duane Weber's files. Did it occur to any of you that perhaps his statement was deliberate? Knowing he had NO intention of sharing Duane Weber's file with me. ... and all for a guy who may not even meet the physical description of Cooper. It boggles the antelope mind! MKULTRA agent photo atatched -

There were 2 incidents prior to 1982 - when Duane did somethings I found out about after the fact. I was packing to leave him and he promised never to do something like that again. I did NOT know that he had a 16 plus yr criminal background or I would have been gone. I am sure there were other incidents - but I was not aware of them. I believe I have stated all of this before. I set the stage for nothing. Is not any of my life with Duane private? Yes, I have left somethings out, but because of individuals such as yourself who take it upon themselves to twist and turn everything I say - I have had to leave things out. Do you not think that I have NO pride left? I guess not - I never told my own daughter some of the things I found out about the man I was married to. Perhaps you need to clarify what you mean by SOCIALLY MALAJUSTED. A socially malajusted person is not a leader and producer and friend to all. I saw this man give when he didn't have it to give - because he wanted to please others. He was very astute as hiding what needed to be and saying what had to be said...pehaps that is how one survives in prison. He was a person always in charge of the circumstances.