georger

I'm going to have to think that 38 years after the fact there isn't much in the way of useable DNA left on any of the evidence that wouldn't be considered severally compromised and contaminated. I'm pretty sure that even if you had a pristine glass that Cooper would have left a thumb print smudge on it that would have been perfectly fine to use if it was fresh, the DNA has broken down by now. Lets just say its good they got samples when they did. The reconstructive-statistical side of dna analysis however may offer a lot in this case as time goes on. Without knowing what the FBI has its difficult to speculate.

Google isn't a secret.... Some people dont/wont use it. So I try to provide references where I can -

Tina’s compliance, Just to clear a few matters up on Tina's compliance/willingness. Here re a few notes from the Sluggo's timeline using the Transcripts: (1) "15:45 PST Tina called cockpit and requested that another girl be allowed to stay with him. Cooper said, “No” "" Pilot Time based on handwritten crew notes p.5 (2) """ 15:59 – 18:59 PST During this period a plane started taxing along the taxiway and was unaware the airport was closed. Flo and Alice were in a car and thought that if Cooper was told everything was going well he would let Tina go. Tena had been instructed to sit with Cooper and not go forward of the 1st Class Section. Pilot and SEA GRND Comm. between Pilot and SEA GRND Reel #4""" On the topic of the Lavatory: Here is the first remark about this in the PI Transcript - The plane landed at 5:47 PM. 5:47pm MSPFLTOPS: Any word yet? SEADD: The flight is on the ground and they are making preps to hook up the fueling truck. The hijacker is in the LAV (lavatory) and think will stay there for a while. The plane left at 3:07 so the passengers have been in the air approx 2:40 hrs on what would have been a routine 30min flight. This is illuminated by the following passage from T6 also at 5:47 : """~5:47pm t6 Cooper hiding in back lavatory as 305 lands. AL: You can stay there for just a half a (unintel) ..for just a moment until we get contact made with our friend in the back.. (unintel). P: OK, Thank you. P: Ok. He at the present time is in the Lavatory and apparently desires to Stay in there at the present time. We have the aircraft shut down and we have the APU on and we ask that the fuel truck come out first and initiate fueling. Al: Are you sure you want (unintel) or you want the fuel truck only? P: (unintel) we’ll stand by to get the next word from him. Al: And I’ll stay right here. I’ll go back and get the fuel truck started. P: Ok fine (Al). You’re on the first vehicle, is that correct? AL: Yes sir. They have a portable radio and a dialer here and we can answer your questions if you have any. P: OK fine. Ok. Be sure to get the fuel out here right now. P: Are you there? Al, or whomever? AL: (unintel … yes Im here muffled … truck is moving away further to let another fuel truck in. P: Ok, now you can send the air stair, or the stair. AL: (unintel) …to bring truck up and pull it into position and we’ll initiate the door and so forth and advise the individuals not to get out of the vehicles. AL: OK, is it OK if I positioned it at your (unintell) position or do you want it out here? P: Oh that’s fine. You can bring it up. Al: Ok. I’ll have to get out of the truck to get the pack out of the truck, the chutes that we took. P: OK. PLEASE WAIT until we request that you do so. (Cooper has not approved anyone approaching the plane.) Al Yep. I know …. (unintel) P: Ok, we’ll wait for the stairs now. Al: Ok, we’re bringing the stairs up now. P: Understand C: We’re going to position. Al: OK. C: I’ve already got 305 parked. P: The passengers will be coming out of the aircraft right now, Al, and after they have completely I might suggest that you come out of the automobile now if you will and direct the passengers to gather behind the automobile where they have been so directed (by Cooper) to go, just to make sure that they all stand clear and as far back as possible. The next direct mention of Cooper comes at: 6:21pm t1 305: WE HAVE INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE INDIVIDUAL. He wants Nr 305 to go to Mexico City with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees aft under way. All lights to be turned out in aircraft. Cannot land in USA for fuel or any other reason. No crew member is to go aft or class section curtain. MSPFLTOPS: Roger. Even if full tanks you cannot land in Mexico City. 305: Roger. Aft passenger loading door will be open and will remain in that position and aft stairs to be lowered after takeoff. MSPFLTOPS: The drag will be such that you cannot make Mexico border even with aft stairs up. 305: Roger. Will have to negotiate with him and will have to stop for fuel. 305: Girls are not off yet. Senior girl stationed on aft side of the cockpit in her seat remaining seated. 2nd girl in forward rear seat in C section told not to get up. 3rd girl (Mucklow) is intermediary and sitting with the individual. Mspfltops, the plane is operable with the aft stairs extended. 305. Roger? MSPFLTOPS: You just cannot make it with the flaps down. Our guess is you can only go for two and a half hours, as far as can go. That would be Frisco under that drag condition. 305: Roger. Will talk to him again.

Some more advanced departments will try using fluorescent and UV monochromatic illumination methods prior to a method which contaminates the prints chemically - in order to help preserve the pristine chemistry of the prints. The problem usually, is these techniques are just not ameanable to the crime scene at hand, or to time factors involved, and are not cost effective (yet) especially if further chemistry tests are mandated. Over the years finger printing has evolved more toward the chemistry side. The ideal technology would provide both high quality graphics and preserve chemistry & dna, with reliable results on both sides of the issue - Behind all techniques is the issue of statistical reliability. No method stands on its own without statistical validation.

ANYONE: Today I understand they can get DNA from a fingerprint - is that true or just TV talk. True. Its called contact dna. Here's a link or two:: http://dna-view.com/DNAtechID.htm http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/BA/Use_of_DNA_Identification.php http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforcement-Technology/DNA-from-Fingerprints/1$25197 Im not sure how old or how contaminated finger prints can be and still remove dna. Contact dna comes primarily from skin cells left at a crime scene, which may or maynot be mixed in with finger print residues.

btw Georger, I seem to recall that not being AFIS quality doesn't mean the prints are not usable, just that they are not suitable for checking automatically against the database. Maybe someone who knows a bit more about it can chime in. Here's a few links with info about AFIS - ttp://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/iafis.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Fingerprint_Identification_System http://www.onin.com/fp/ http://finger-prints.com/ A lot more on the web for anyone wanting more - Here's a few links about dusting for prints - http://www.cyberbee.com/whodunnit/dusting.html http://www.bxscience.edu/ourpages/users/villani/forensics/articles/fingerprinting/f-fing03.htm http://www.brazoria-county.com/sheriff/id/fingerprints/id~silver~nitrate.htm 1969 may want to look at this last link because it explains (in chemical terms) how latent prints were being processed back around 1971, using one of three primary methods, and one of these (silver nitrate dusting) was very common. I can say with some confidence that silver nitrate dusting was one of the techniques the FBi used - a common practice. Techniques vary depending on the porous nature of material being examined, ie paper, stone, glass, metal, etc. Latent prints may contain residues of fats (fatty acids)-amino acids, enzymes, sodium (Na), and other biological residues including dna. The primary methods in use since the 50s have been to chemically convert and stabilise the amino acid, or enzymes, or sodium found in finger print latents and then enhance those results through other techniques to make them more photogenic. There are guidelines for which process to use under different circumstances. Today, one can also test for something called 'contact dna' - that technique was not available in 1971. The link below is a very good link readers might want to take a look at: http://www.brazoria-county.com/sheriff/id/fingerprints/id~silver~nitrate.htm

June 19: No usable prints in that whole crime scene is a little hard to buy - I thought they had 69 prints they ran but no matches were found?

Sounds like Schaffner was convinced DB was wearing makeup. No Accent, makeup to make himself look darker...Must be a Midwesterner eh Georger! Maybe even Hungarian.

I agree. The bathroom journey is a departure. Presumably he went in there so as not to be noticed as the passengers were deboarding, but also to isolate himself from being tackled in the mix of people milling around? If you recall we discussed this months ago - If I understand this correctly the back stairs had not been lowered and they were using the front side door, so what's to prevent everyone from just filing off the plane leaving Cooper alone on the plane? Was he listening. Were stews nearby by command with Cooper communicating through the door? In addition we have never heard one word about forensic tests on the bathroom even though tests were done - Ckret said so. Was the toilet emptied at SEA or between SEA and Reno, or at Reno, or when? Same for sink water ? And it is the one period where Cooper leaves everything unattended. I assume he was relying on the bomb to keep people in line during his absence. (Did any of the hijacker's in Snowmman's samples hide in the bathroom?) And its not exactly clear to me from the transcripts when he came out. In fact the transcripts simply mention the fact and say nothing further about it, which to me is a little strange. Like 'our hijacker is going on vacation ......... and now he is back'. Resume scene 471 - take #7. All is normal. ??? Surely there is more to it? And when Cooper emerges from the bathroom does he take any special steps to see if people have been armed or something has changed, in the meantime? There is nothing to suggest that in the transcript. Something doesnt add up unless this is a factual account of Cooper lapsing (and others lapsing also literally waiting on Cooper), and part of what makes Ckret profile Cooper as an amateurish inexperienced idiot relying on others to do the heavy lifting? We need to nail down a timeline for the bathroom adventure -

Greetings Georger, Whew, G., you sure have gotten your knickers in a twist, here. As for the affinity I see between Tina and DB Cooper, here’s my thinking: One, she describes him in favorable terms, i.e.: gentlemanly, courteous, etc, while Himmelsback saw him as a filthy-mouthed sleaze ball. What is the truth, here? Two, she was his trusted courier. Three, she was able to sit next to him for long periods of time, light cigarettes for him, and tried to make small talk, albeit, elicit information for the FBI. How many women would do that? I know if my mother was in Tina’s shoes, she would have told Danny Boy straight up: “Light your own damn cigarettes, Mr. Hijack-and-Blow-Me-Up-Gangster-Man. If you’re such a Big Shot, light ‘em yourself, and I hope you choke on them. You shouldn’t be smoking anyway - its bad for your health, and it stinks, too!” (As far as I know, my mother has never missed an opportunity to educate anyone into proper virtue and behavior.) Was Tina just being wise, and complying with a terrorist’s threat? Probably. But, at the end, as I understand from written accounts, they waved to each other when she went back to the cockpit, and Danny headed towards destiny. Im going to go at this one more time and then probably give this up - there is no record of waving that I am aware of. In fact Cooper told Tina to go forward and not look back. As she went through and was closing the curtain from the other side she paused and looked back - that is the moment when she reports later she saw Cooper tying (something .. the money bag?) around his waste with a rope. There was no waving goodbye and good luck. I see a lot of "projection" is everything above including your choice of words (negative towards Cooper). You have to remain neutral in these matters and rely on facts alone, as best you can assemble the facts. You have to start with a few basic assumptions regarding human behavior. One of those is: most people know when they are in a dangerous confrontational situation and their lives are at risk. A few basic human emotions (autonomic) come into play at the moment (hormone driven). Fear. Alert. Panic (suppressed if trained). etc etc. On the basis of those basic emotions one can begin to imput what other behaviors or communications mean. That is one place to start. (One can start at several other levels also but the basic emotional response-to-threat level is usually a reliable base from which to interpret other behaviors). Again, Tina was not Cooper's trusted courier. Tina was behaving under orders fulfilling a role. Likewise Cooper was not trusting of Tina. Cooper watched her intently. He demanded she sit close to him so he could control her if need be. He demonstrated the bomb and said 'just touching these two wires and boom' - the message was obvious (no funny stuff). You seem to read into this options which never existed for either party. Not only was there not the time, but there wasn't enough reciprocal space based on experience, in order to build a trust. Overriding everything is the fact of the bomb and nobody knows if Cooper had other weapons - he did produce a knife. There might have been an element of Tina wanting to stay close to Cooper at certain times in order to intervene, if she thought she could. She knew he was a nutcase - she watched him flip out and turn childlike when the money was delivered and he opened the bag and saw $200,000. Tina stood there and unemotionally watched. Tina being in the back was also reassurance for the flight crew trying to focus on their duties. She was their eyes and ears. The most frightening time for everyone was perhaps when Tina went forward and contact with Cooper was lost. How could they know from that point what he was going to do? That is why Rat eventually called back to ask if everything was OK. But I am sure from the moment Tina went forward, everyone wanted Cooper off the plane and gone, asap, and the transcripts show they cooperated in every way to get that goal achieved. I think Ive said more than enough. I hope some of this will help your thoughts -

Actually, it kinda is. Let's say just for the sake of argument that we've NAILED the exit point and figured the winds all the way down to the ground in such a way that we have a circle of uncertainty 1 mile in radius. That is, I believe, WAY closer than is possible but just for the sake of argument let's say it is. Assume he went in with a no pull and impacted the ground belly first . . . you're looking for 2 square yards of evidence out of 3.1415 square miles. A needle in a haystack 38 years after the fact that may have been eroded over and washed away to nothingness. Assume he landed, was just fine and walked away. There's no reason to expect to find . . . anything . . . ever. I know. Then we have a beach party and say' goodbye.

Greetings Georger, Whew, G., you sure have gotten your knickers in a twist, here. As for the affinity I see between Tina and DB Cooper, here’s my thinking: One, she describes him in favorable terms, i.e.: gentlemanly, courteous, etc, while Himmelsback saw him as a filthy-mouthed sleaze ball. What is the truth, here? Two, she was his trusted courier. Three, she was able to sit next to him for long periods of time, light cigarettes for him, and tried to make small talk, albeit, elicit information for the FBI. How many women would do that? I know if my mother was in Tina’s shoes, she would have told Danny Boy straight up: “Light your own damn cigarettes, Mr. Hijack-and-Blow-Me-Up-Gangster-Man. If you’re such a Big Shot, light ‘em yourself, and I hope you choke on them. You shouldn’t be smoking anyway - its bad for your health, and it stinks, too!” (As far as I know, my mother has never missed an opportunity to educate anyone into proper virtue and behavior.) Was Tina just being wise, and complying with a terrorist’s threat? Probably. But, at the end, as I understand from written accounts, they waved to each other when she went back to the cockpit, and Danny headed towards destiny. In general, I see several basic emotional responses a flight attendant might have had in Tina’s position. Cold, neutral compliance would be one, and which would be typical of many f.a.’s and probably viewed as acceptable behavior by NWA and Danny. Veiled hostility, which would have been problematic. Outright defiance, also probably not welcomed by others or Danny. Gentle compliance, such as Tina’s, which I think would be the most preferred by anyone aboard 305. This sustained gentility in the face of enormous tension, with its effective non-threatening behavior and tone, I consider “affinity,” particularly when you add a wave, or any other form of social salutation. So, with that said, Georger, how would you describe the relationship between Tina and DB Cooper? I would describe Tina's behavior as completely professional toward Cooper and nothing more. She wasn't sitting with Cooper by choice - she was ordered to by chief pilot, Scott. They tried to get her off the plane, but the plan/ opportunity just didnt develop as hoped. Hancock, the senior stew, talkd to Cooper directly and tried to get Cooper to let Tina go. Hancock was almost successful then Cooper changed his mind at the last minute. Once outside Hancock and Schaffner and Al Lee tried again to get Tina freed, but it just didnt work. Finally Scott and Rat tried several more things to get Tina forward and that didnt work. The flight crew considered bailing enmasse at one point (they talked to Boeing about the method) but they decided to stay because of Tina being held against her will, in the back. Tina Mucklow is an American hero, whether you know it or not. It was far more complciated and dynamic than you describe or speculate it was. There was no psychological empathy or association between the two personalities - except for Tina obeying Scott's instructions and using her professionalism to create a facade of calm deliberation through which the hijacking could be processed and handled, as a tactical matter. Tina functioned in spite of the threat to her's and everyone's lives and at one point she even begged Cooper not to blow them up (after he left the plane). There was never any sense of affinity between Tina and the hijacker and Cooper himself undertstood that well, according to testimony. This was no family picnic! This was not a case of cousin Cooper showing up to simply pilfer the cookie jar. This was a real life and death struggle between total strangers which developed right at the end of the flight day during the last hours of flight (after a long day when people thought they would have Thanksgiving off). I think if Tina had had a pistol in her pocket, at some point Cooper would have been a dead corpse laying on the floor of the airplane. That is the level of affinity I see in this matter. By all accounts Cooper never patted Tina down or checked her pockets, that I know of. It was definately within Tina to do, if required. Larry Carr was here and spoke to these issues - its in the previous pages.

Greetings Georger: Cousin Brucie will do. Do I have any facts about Tina’s mental health and life? Nope. Just reading the tea leaves here. Observations from what is known behavior of the principals. Hence, Tina is an interesting gal. When I see good-looking women bringing bibles to work, or other talisman of support, i.e.: dolls, I think of patients I have known who do the same. Hence, I make an association to Tina and wonder if her reasons are the same, i.e.: recovering from sexual abuse. Regardless, the essential question is why talk about Tina's mental health at all. I do so, with great concern for her privacy and possible fragility, but also with great interest because she's the one who described the tie at her debriefing in Reno. Yet, the Reno FBI guys have no recollection of seeing the tie, nor recovering it. To me, that's a red flag. Now, Jerry Thomas has speculated to me in a phone call that he thinks the first federal guy on 305, or one of the first, such as Red Campbell, spotted the tie and instantly realized he had a diamond of a clue. Jerry thinks that individual kept it secret even from his fellow FBI agents to make sure he had an iron-clad "prove-it" clue to any wannabe confessing to the crime. That's one possibility, and knowing how the FBI worked under Hoover, very plausible*. Another possibility is that the tie was a plant, and placed – for reasons still unclear - into the evidentiary collection – another red flag here - four days after the hijacking, as Russ Calame writes in DB Cooper-The Real McCoy. If it's a plant, then how did Tina make her tie disclosure during her de-briefing? One possibility is that a hypnotic suggestion was placed into her consciousness prior to the hijacking by the folks who planted the tie. A stretch? You bet. However, it all comes back to Danny Boy. Why did he leave his tie on 305, if in fact he did? Absentminded? Hmmm, he was pretty sharp in all other facets of the caper. Forgetting a tie left in plain sight is also a stretch to believe. Tina snatched it for a souvenir and then gave it to the Feds, or was prompted in-flight by them to get evidence? Hmmm, also possibilities. Another one is that Danny left it as a "howdy" to family and friends, ala Duane Weber and Jo's hypothesis. But then, once identified to his family, he had to leave them totally – complete abandonment – in order to preserve his freedom. Whew, tough gig. But again, Duane seems uniquely capable of walking away from his past. Such behavior would require an enormously compartmentalized mind and emotional being that again, strongly suggests personality disorder. Never call your mom? Your kid? Not a goodbye kiss for your wife? Whew. If in fact that is what Duane did, post-November 24, 1971, and here I’m drawing upon Jo’s recent postings for some detail on this possibility. We all bring what we’ve got to this party. Some of you have extensive aviation backgrounds; most have sharp minds and expressive tongues, and all are fueled by dogged intent. Me, I have a familiarity with psychiatry, and I see a ton of behavioral clues that call for examination. Yet, with all this, what I most desire, and most hope to gain from this forum, is a better understanding of how the FBI functioned, and is functioning, in this case. Who called the shots? How were decisions made? What is the nitty–gritty of the FBI’s investigation of DB Cooper? In that pursuit, the utter silence of Ralph, Larry and others – not to tell me what they think of Barb Dayton or Tina’s mental health - but to remain silent on what they did, are doing, and why, raises an enormous red flag. As my mother would say, their silence speaks volumes. *Russ Calame, in his book DB Cooper, The Real McCoy, describes the Bureau as one where an agent could make an extra 200-300 bucks a month – direct from Hoover and in cash - by doing snazzy sleuthing, like picking up a tie on 305. This suggests two things – one, Hoover was intimately involved in the investigative work his agents were doing and begs the question of what his involvement was in the DBC case, and two, he bred a culture where FBI agents didn’t trust each other as robustly as one would think, or hope for, and how did that shape the Bureau’s investigation of DB Cooper? I.E.: did Campbell pick up a couple hundred extra for snatching the tie, but ultimately sabotaged the case? well the above, to my mind, is a more reasonable stance(s). I have several reactions: I think Carr and others could cut through the theoretical options you cite very quickly, with facts. You could chose to believe it or not. There were independent witnesses and records to the items found on board the plane at Reno. The custody chain is another matter. In that there may be a problem but I am not in a position to know. Somewhere on Sluggo's cite is a list of the agents who have been in charge of the Cooper case at one time or another. The list is long. The list might be something you want to digest... but once evidence is collected it usually sits in storage - damned near forver. The FBI has a number of system wide cross-checking protocols which you may not be aware of. You almost need to file a report to see a report or issue a report - redundancy. There is a great deal of redundancy in the FBI system. Once an item is seen it winds up in a report, and then more rrports referring to previous report numbers, ad infinitum. It would have been exceedingly difficult for anyone to hide anything found at Reno - from what I understand of the system and any issueof that kind probably would have been picked up internally in the FBI's own internal cross checking system, and people asked: "what about .............?" I dont know why Cooper left the tie on the plane. But after hours spent on the plane he left evidence. And evidence within evidence. Judged by current standards he could not help but leave evidence. He definately was there. And his evidence and Cooper definately were not elsewhere which includes some very specific places and connections later examined. I want to remind you that Jo Weber's claims for the tie are her claims. The FBI has its own story for the tie, and the FBI has the tie to know. There is the difference, and the FBI has no responsibility whatever to explain to Jo what the differences are, if she only knew.

I know a lot of places Osama bin Liden isn't. I don't think that means a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Funny. I love it! In Cooper's case however we know he didnt make it to Afghanistan, or Turkistan, or Outre Mongolia. In Cooper's case we have several fp options each with its own DZ options. It isnt a super large territory, as the crow flies. The variance in territories is stark and perhaps telling. If he or his artifacts dont turn up in some farmer's field or a pasture, and in all the more obvious places, then you have to grudgingly turn to the more difficult scenarios, and that involves the crestline break which spills eastward or westward (Lewis vs Washougal), and Jerry and others have been in both. And I havent even covered all the options - just considering some. Thanks, Georger up in some farmer;s field

What upset me with Jerry was his insistence the places didn't exist and he repeatedly told me I was lieing and I didn't find the places and I had no witnesses. I wasn't lieing and I am not now. Those places do exist. well places are often in the eye (or mind) of the beholder. I myself have been to places I thought existed, or should exist, only to be corrected by locals ........ and it always turned out the locals were correct. Jerry was looking for Cooper too. Had you described some place Jerry was unaware of I think Jerry would have been the first to say: "Oh my God!", and things would have progressed differently to everyone's mutual benefit. That did not happen. It is not uncommon at all to have outsiders come into an area with maps and even a few guides and miss vital locations in a search. In any event, except for the palcard and some money, no trace of Cooper has ever been found, so far as I know. Jerry has a spotless reputation. Jerry has never claimed any item he found, is connected to the Cooper case. In all of his years of searching Jerry has never claimed one item, as belonging to Cooper. To date, Jerry' story is 100% consistent with the rest of the known facts in this case. In addition, Jerry has helped countless others in conducting their search attempts based on ideas others had developed or thought they had (including you), above and beyond Jerry's own personal searches based on his own time, based on his own theories. Jerry may not have found Cooper but does know where Cooper isnt! That is a solid record of achievement which few in the FBI can even claim. I would think you would want to applaud Jerry for his efforts. That is a 100% success rate in my book.

I will say this just to set the record straight, about where I stand in this - I think you have done Jerry and Shelly a real diservice. Ralph likewise. Much of what you have you owe to them, in one way or another. When you arrived in WA in 2001 Jerry, Shelly, and Ralph were completely innocent parties. They only tried to be of service and had no agenda, but wound up being pulled into your affairs. without so much as a thank you. Its no wonder they are upset. And I support them as their friend. Make no mistake about that. Im just trying to illuminate the terrain on which we all find ourselves -

How do you know this, Jo? To play devil's advocate, how sure can you be that Bruce is wrong about her? Do you know all the details of her childhood? How sure can you be that an air hostess in 1971 would have been a "young and innocent child"? Would you be so defensive of Tina if you weren't trying to get something out of her? The carnival sideshow just gets worse and worse here. Does anyone remember that this thread is actually about a man who hijacked an aeroplane? Bruce seems to be dismissing or unaware of, large pieces of reality. For one thing, all NWA stews were required to go through an evaluation process as a part of their applications for employment with NWA. That may have included a psychological evaluation of some kind. (Airline stews as a rule were not selected for their physical beauty and charm, or innocence!) That is still true today. If you take Hancock, Mucklow, and Schaffner as a group, they had different personality traits but they also had many things in common. Let me simply say I have never seen Mucklow as the sad, vulnerable, indecisive, passive victim type Dr. Bruce seems to be saying she was! To me so far, Dr. Bruce's selection and typing process says more to me about Bruce, than it does anything related to the real Tina Mucklow ... In fact, I find all of this just a little bit laughable and perhaps sad, on Dr. Bruce's part. How much can we learn about Cooper by focusing on the crew? I am not even convinced Cooper 'selected' Tina at all so much as Tina just wound up in a position having to sit with Cooper, primarily because of Scott's instructions! It hasnt been highly publicised but Hancock also had exchanges with Cooper ... I doubt Dr. Bruce even knows about that.

We were told that Bruce is a writer and now he says he is a psychiartist. =================== Georger states I do not believe Cooper and Tina were "connected" in anyway =================== Georger states: I am not fascinated by Tina. I just need to talk to her and show her somethings. I obviously take her privacy into consideration and think the allegations made by Bruce are completely out of line and that such a supposition is harmful and should never have been stated. Those are damaging statements Bruce made. ================== Geprger states: Georger I was thinking the same thing but lack your ability to word it so well. =================== Geoger states: The things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971. =================== In Closing: Bruce's story made me ill. These statements regarding Tina are not statements any Dr. would or could or should make about someone he knows NOTHING about. By the way, Bruce has never said he is a psychiatrist. He says he has 16 years working "in" psychiatry whatever that means. Normally 10-12 years are required through Residency to finally begin working as an MD in Psychiatry. I could be wrong but I thought Bruce said early he was an orderly or something like that. A psychiatric nurse? (That takes 4-6 years through most programs - even community college programs). The only reason Im bringing this up is because of Bruce's sweeping claims. I want to be 100% clear. I do not know anyone nor have I ever spent 2 minutes trying of find out about the personal lives of those were were aboard 305. I do however get the feeling there has been a lot of stereo-typing of some of these people, especially Scott and Mucklow (because they played pivital roles and received a lot of press attention). Sterotypes usually turn out to be wrong!

We were told that Bruce is a writer and now he says he is a psychiartist. =================== Georger states I do not believe Cooper and Tina were "connected" in anyway =================== Georger states: I am not fascinated by Tina. I just need to talk to her and show her somethings. I obviously take her privacy into consideration and think the allegations made by Bruce are completely out of line and that such a supposition is harmful and should never have been stated. Those are damaging statements Bruce made. ================== Geprger states: Georger I was thinking the same thing but lack your ability to word it so well. =================== Geoger states: The things Bruce has stated are deplorable and totally disrespectfully of what was a young and innocent child in 1971. =================== In Closing: Bruce's story made me ill. These statements regarding Tina are not statements any Dr. would or could or should make about someone he knows NOTHING about. well Jo Im glad for these comments. Evidently you are suspicious of Bruce also. I dont know. Bruce makes some very sweeping statements, so maybe we need to take that at face value for what it is, and is not. Thanks.

And any or all of those could stem from something other than sexual abuse, too. If you are going to blame sexual abuse every time you come across one of those "symptoms", well then you are sure to find many people everywhere who may have been abused. I do think you need to look at your "symptoms" in conjunction with other things. I do think a number of those could have been caused by controlling fathers - or submissive mothers, or both - without any hint of sexual abuse at all. And don't forget some of these symptoms (like excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making) were the way women were "supposed" to be for a long time. Emotional abuse, intentional or unintentional, could surely also be behind many of these, as could socialization in a particular community, etc etc. For the record, I don't believe that any of this has anything to do with DB Cooper whatsoever. I agree. Bruce's wide swath is so sweeping as to catch every fish in the ocean, so to speak, including half the animals on land and some never seen in outer space which only has seen, apparently. Bruce says above: "In addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering." Well what precisely is Bruce looking for (seeing) in the Cooper case that allows him to strike an identity between the Coopr case and child molestation in general. I can get very specific here (clinically) if Bruce desires that. I guess Bruce is claiming personal knowledge of the lives of crew members aboard 305? My take is we have an orderly here who is playing phD/MD expert? I think Bruce may be a Troll. He came in on the back of the "Barb" sex change book he advocates, and now he is claiming personal knowledge about Tina Mucklow and others. That's a tall order!

Greetings Three-Seven-Seven, Do I believe Cathy O’Brien was sexually abused in the MKULTRA program for the CIA? Yes and no. Here’s my thinking: I first encountered Cathy in 1999, when I heard her and her rescuer, Mark Somebody, speak about her experiences. At that time, I was certain she was correct in describing herself as a victim of childhood sexual abuse, but I was skeptical that it was at the hands of a governmental operation. She and Mark described her recall of the abuse as being a result of several therapies, including hypnosis, and even a lot of old-fashioned TLC, if I remember correctly. Such recollections, “retrieval memories” can be very unreliable, though. The patient believes absolutely that the memories are real, but the facts just don’t support the claims. At the time, I believed such was the case with Cathy O’Brien. However, as the research continues and I learn more about Cathy, MKULTRA; Gitmo and Abu Graib; the Shock Doctrine, the Chicago Boys and the corporatocracy; plus experience first-hand lies, deception and spin from my local law enforcement, I have begun to add a few more grains of sand on the side of the scale that reads, “Truth” The one element of doubt that persists is that in my 16 years in psychiatry not once has a patient come up to me and say, “Yo, Bruce, I just gotta tell ya- I was a sex slave for the CIA.” One would think that if the government was running a large scale sex operation somewhere one of the kids would make a run for it and end up in my arena trying to make sense of their trauma. However, with that said, many of the MKULTRA experiments were conducted for years in secrecy at the Allen Institute, a well-established psychiatric facility in Montreal, and nobody spilled the beans. How did that happen?! Further, sexual abuse of children is widespread. The general rule of thumb is that one-third of all American women will be raped or physically abused sometime in their lifetime. Boys have a one-in-eight chance of being molested or physically assaulted. That’s a lot of people. In addition, once one knows what to look for, you can readily see the traces of childhood abuse in adults, and on a daily basis I see women suffering. Some of the indicators can be: flat affect or incongruous emotional expression, eating disorders, chemical addictions, unsatisfactory relationships with men, excessive passivity, the lack of robust expression of opinions and decision making, involvement in the sex industry, blatant use of sex or seduction to obtain power or influence, rampant anxieties, and extreme religiosity. Another key is looking at the men around them, particularly dads and husbands: controlling, angry, bullying, and aggressive. Hence, I strongly suspect that Tina was abused as a kid. I strongly doubt that she was abused in any way by DB Cooper. Also, I suspect that Danny Boy was sexually abused, probably as a kid and possibly throughout his life. That would explain in part how he came to be a loner, appeared from nowhere, boarded 305 and threatened to blow everyone up, then jumped into a November night’s rainy sky and returned to nowhere. The question I have is: Did he have any organized assistance along the way? The best we can say at the moment is “Maybe yes, maybe no.” But if he did, then it serves as a link – a possible explanation - as to why we have compelling death-bed confessions, credible ancillary incidents like McCoy’s mysterious appearance in Las Vegas on Nov. 24, 1971 and John C Collins’ in the Rode-Away Inn in Portland, and so many red flags in the FBI investigation that I’ve run out of red ink. One last thought: Since abusers were often abused themselves, childhood sexual abuse may explain some of the affinity between Tina and DB. He was a male figure that she was readily familiar with; she was a woman he knew how to control, or at least feel safe with. The more I read this 'treatise' of yours above, the more fascinated I get. You speak of the "the affinity between Tina and DB." What "affinity" would that be? Why am I compelled to ask: "Did you get this idea from Jo Weber?". Are you and Jo Weber joined at the hip? Are you Jo Weber's 'Angel Bruce'? That's the affinity I see in your posts. What is this "affinity" you see between Tina and Cooper? YOUR CONTENTION IS A VERY HIGHLY LOADED SUPPOSITION! Because, the affinity I see is between you and Jo Weber. And I seriously doubt either you or Jo actually knows much at all about the real Tina Mucklow, especially her family history. Why your & Jo's fascination with Tina Mucklow? Or are you just inarticulate and brash? Did you mean "vulnerability" rather than "affinity", in reference to a Mucklow-Cooper association"? And just because somebody hijacks an airplane how does that act 'certify' that all female hostages taken 'were sexually abused as children'? (By the way that kind of sweeping logic has a name: The Bakersfield Syndrom". Under the Bakersfield CA syndrom one man is arrested on testimony of a social worker for sexual abuse of a child. This leads to the rest of the family being arrested, then all friends of the family, then the family's whole church, then the whole neighborhood, then half the town - all charged with sexual abuse of children, including those families who dont even have any children! (The Bakersfield Witch Hunt). Are you saying Tina allowed herself to be kidnapped because of some 'affinity' with Cooper? And this is all due to sexual abuse as children? Was NWA chosen over Continental because more people at NWA suffered sexual abuse as children vrs. those working for Continental? Do hijackings only happen in regions where there is a high incidence of child sexual abuse? Does the Earth rotate to the east on its axis, because there is more child sexual abuse on the east side of the planet than on the west side? I have to seriously wonder how much you really know about the Cooper case. Why would you see or select an 'affinity' between Mucklow and Cooper, but not see one between Alice Hancock and Cooper, given the 'record' of events on this case? Or an affinity between Schaffner and Cooper. Or an affinity between Anderson and Cooper, for that matter! ? I am suspicious you dont know much about this case and the individuals involved, at all, but like Jo Weber you dont mind inventing details - and then passing deductions as soon as you have digested your own creations, which have nothing to do with the factual realities in this case. You clearly are saying you see an affinity between Cooper and Mucklow based on vulnerability from both having been sexually abused as children (because half the world as you see it is sexually abused in childhood!). What should Tina do to escape your scenario and pass your test, Dr. Bruce, with 16 years in Psychiatry? Should she have run and jumped out of the airplane to prove she was spiritually whole and not sexually abused as a child? Or would you prefer water boarding, or trial by fire, or the rack with chains and hooks ... all to prove to YOU that Mucklow is not spoiled property under the control of the Devil ? What test would satisfy you? I mean what is the source of this compulsive- obsession you and Jo have with Tina Mucklow vs Anderson, Scott, Hancock, Rataczak, Schaffner, ... or Walter Chronkite or Madonna, for that matter?" Are you a celebrity stalker? Are you saying Tina Mucklow "selected" Cooper to hijack flight 305 and then protected and assisted him, because they knew each other as sexually abused children, in the same household?

He was a male figure .......................... I tried to follow your logic and confess I could not. Well, I actually follow your logic but where it leads is a little disturbing; shall we say 'unconventional'. You say: " Another key is looking at the men around them, particularly dads and husbands: controlling, angry, bullying, and aggressive. Hence, I strongly suspect that Tina was abused as a kid. I strongly doubt that she was abused in any way by DB Cooper." You obviously are contending Tina Mucklow had an abusive father. On what do you base that contention? You knew Tina Mucklow and her family? You have factual data from some source that Tina Mucklow's father was abusive? Do you have hospital records from your prior work in psychiatry you cite, about Tina Mucklow? Did you work at a facility where Tina was being cared for and she was under your personal care or authority? What is the source of your knowledge you are speaking from ??? Please make yourselves clear. Inquiring minds want to know! Thank you Mr. or is it Dr. Bruce?

IDENT... I am squawking 7500! I have been hijacked. Seriously, I have been doing some "in-depth" NORJAK research (leg-work) on some issues that have always puzzled me and and making "personal contact" with people that I have always wanted to talk to. I honestly believe as time goes on, the curtain is descending on the D. B. Cooper case (NORJAK). Eye-witnesses are getting old, senile and dying. The same is true for participants. Some of these people MUST BE located and their stories recorded, even though time has “muddied the water”. That is the only way the crime can be solved (by anyone, FBI or citizen). However, it DOES NOT ensure that a solution is obtainable. Locating people and getting statements (preferably oral) is what has been occupying my (now limited, since I’m on assignment) time. I’m not mad at anyone, or ignoring the thread, (I read it (almost) daily), it’s just that the current “style” of posts are not helpful (to me). Back around the time of the Amboy chute find, this thread was very valuable to me, but at this time, it isn’t. My hopes are that someday it will return to the way it was then. Anybody know of an old buried parachute in Clark County, Washington that we could dig up?

NO it is NOT. Agent Carr made it clear they would not be talking to the witnesses - it didn't make any difference what I produced. Therefore I have no option, but to find Tina or plaster the "stuff" all over the front of a newpaper or one of those 'Rag" magazines. I have refrained from that kind of behavior although one of them yrs ago picked up the article from the Newpapers - I was not interviewed and refused interviews with them. They made a few unimportant changes of the story so I just let if be like leaves of three. That is not somethng I would subject Tina to so, making the statement I opened with is just my deperation showing. Desperate people take steps they would not under normal circumstances...such as Cooper when he thought - he had no other options. Right now I am not out of options, but the FBI is NOT one of them. well, there isnt anything any of us here could do about it, in any event. So it is a little bit tedious to keep being harranged about it. Try bingo or checkers. Maybe that will relieve some of your stress, and ours too?