georger

It's very simple if you remember one thing. Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach. Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI) The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time. I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ. They may not have had all the information. Yes! and it has to be NWA Soderlind group. Who else would it be? WHO HAS THE VESTED INTEREST AND IS FEEDING INFO TO THE FBI? - NWA! This is a corporate matter just as I have said. The FBI is being directed by NWA, maybe with a little input from McChord. But it is NWA wagging all tails, nbot the FBI, not McChord. The FBI and LE are totally reliant on NWA for everything. Thats trhe chain of command dictated by WHO has the flight info! The probably were many phone conversations and some with H, all from NWA. I will say it again: the one source we have nothing zero zip from is ..... NWA! The gaps in info are with NWA. H probably doesnt know and never knew all of the discussions and decision making that got passed to the FBI from .... NWA. Everyone including the FBI was dependent on who? ... NWA. That is where the missing links are ... at NWA ... and they will never talk. Why should they! This is a corporate matter. H doesnt even have all the answers ... H was in Portland. NWA was at Minneapolis.

for whatever its worth I have the same story from other sources. Seattle radar did not reach to PDX, PDX had 305 on radar but wasnt paying attention!? Things like that. but somebody made the NWA map somehow with something!

You should have him: did it come from NWA at Minneapolis. He surely would know that!

I am smiling broadly -

I'd bet on Snow just cause he is such an ornery tenacious guy and has a lot of outdoor experience in harsh conditions. Jerry would bet against him based on his local knowledge and military survival training. Georger would bet with Jerry for sure. 377 No I wouldnt necessarily. Jerry knows I am independent. I know he is independent. I know H is independent. We just intersect in a lot of other ways .... I would actually give Snow a good chance for no other reason than he is motivated. We dont really know how motivated Cooper was. Dont forget Tina described him as sad and I take that very seriously. That alone under the conditions of that night could be the difference btwn Snow and Cooper ... not to mention other pluses Snow has in his favor.

This might be as good a time as any for me to express my own particular bias in this whole matter. Generally speaking in matters of science, I look first for explanations which are within normal parameters before going off looking for something unusual. Experience has shown over the mellina that special explanations generally fail the test of time, as new better data surfaces. It usually comes down to a question of having the data. Once the data is available then the correct explanation usually follows. But collecting the data can be very difficult. What-if's and 'could happen' usually are the wrong approach. I tend to believe the whole Cooper story falls within the limits of the ordinary, if we only had been there to observe and see it firsthand. That is my bias. The money probably came to Tina Bar by some ordinary means and route, if we only knew the particulars. I think the money washed up at Tina Bar by the same means other things wash up on Tina Bar. The only questions are when and in what condition. I know of nothing to date which suggests anything else. Can we explain the money being at Tina Bar without resort to the dredging event at all? Then in that context, does the dredging event add anything or enhance the first explanation. I think it may.

OK. Just so we are clear I am attaching the two maps at issue: both are labeled. MAP NO#1 yellow map is the socalled FBI flight path map Larry posted here. As you can see this flight path goes nowhere near the Washougal but does come down by Lake Merwin. We have no idea who made this map, at least I dont. MAP NO#1 This is the original map made by Northwest Airlines Chief Pilot Super which we think was the map used to direct a search at Lake Merwin. Maybe you can show these maps to Ralph? He's seen them before. Is there a third map the FBI had which we have never seen which shows a flight path east of V23 toward the Washougal? Let me know if you have any questions -

Jerry, there is one large problem here only H can explain. And that is: Where did the FBI flight path yellow map Ckret uses come from? Who made it? Why is it so wrong or different in terms of everything we are now talking about. ? And is there an official flight path map which shows the path you are describing, that we have never seen? Those issues have to be answered or nobody is going to be satisfied. I know its a stickler but maybe you can just ask Ralph? Thanks!

Sluggo called it out and implied it did. We never narrowed down "how close"..i.e. how close would a flight have to be, to get an altimeter setting (I'm assuming you're referring to the altimeter pressure callout, not an ident request from seattle artcc) The ident requests from seattle artcc pretty much confirm that radar there, minimally, was tracking 305 on their screens. Thats right. In addition H's helicopter had a set range. Bohan's flight was also suppopsed to be directly behind (4 miles?) and above 305 (4000ft). Jerry's says the airport was Troutdale - Thats it.

Im wondering if the ident at PDX places limits on where 305 had to be at that instant?

Thanks Jerry. Lets talk soon. Our best - G.

Thats not it - an airport east. I have it in notes and will find it. I agree about cowboying it - that wasnt happening But in order to make the kinds of adjustments they made to accomodate Cooper they had to be flying by hand at least during the time frame around 8:13. We have these different accounts and I dont know how to reconcile them because we lack data, which includes people who were there ... The one thing I am sure of, is Rat and Scott were very good pilots - tons of experience. They knew what was going on, and where they were on or off V23, they were not wandering around in the void waiting for Cooper, and this kind of guessing game the transcripts conveys is pure nonesense for public consumption - until somebody convinces me otherwise. 90% of what happened had a purpose behind it. There has to be more than we know. Has it ever occurred to you that the one report and personal testimony that is missing over the years, is testimony from NWA? I am unaware of anything of an official nature than NWA ever said about this hijacking outside of short bland public press statements which add up to nothing - including the CBS interviews in Nevada where nobody says anything and Scott basically says: 'we cant talk about it' ... and Tina looks like she's seen a ghost.

Ok. There were secret instructions on where to fly, that somehow Jerry uncovered, probably from Himmelsbach, who got it from who knows where. In addition, the flight path was transcribed incorrectly on the map, to hide this additional flying. At what point was the map wrong and what point right? The map we have, has the same location for the 8:11/8:12 predicted jump point, in the 1972 DZ map we have. So the two bits of flight path info we have, around 8:11/8:12, agree. They committed a huge number of troops based on this. Himmelsbach himself, in the Norjak book, muses about the plane flying near Lake Merwin. So somehow, the instructions about where to fly and the actual flight path, are recreated from someone's memory, post 1972? When people think the plane flew somewhere else, do they also say "plus the predicted jump point is wrong" OR do they say Cooper still jumped at 8:11, and Flight 305 was not near Lake Merwin at 8:11. My mind just reels at all the possibilties. It's never clear, because people just throw out one liners like "Rat said the plane was farther east" Which is no data, that is usable. (minimally there are time issues...when and for how long...Portland issues...etc..on and on) Im replying to both your last two - Make no mistake: I have the exact same issues and more! Too many versions, too many sources, too little hard data (none), and all anecdote. Thats one helluva a way to draw a flight path map and put it out to the public however Snowmman, I am 90% convinced Ckret is as mystified as anyone. He comes into this late also. His sources may be no better than ours? He may not have had the time to delve into all the files, all of the pertinent files may not even be in Seattle, and we know Minneapolis played a huge role in all of this (Soderlind group). The FBI may not even have everything NWA had! I am not even convinced Ralph ever had the full story however based on discussions I have had with Jerry I do believe H knew a lot, was privy to many if not most of the discussions and probably knows the actual history of how flight maps were generated (to justify the Merwin search), and H himself tried to intercept 305 near Portland and he took some risk doing this. So H had some idea of the vector 305 was coming in on. Now, how all of this fits the the flight map Ckret pushed (which Sluggo) worked on, I do not know. I am as in the dark about this as you are and I have the same questions you do, .... for a very long time. We could guess all day and get nowhere. I think we have to toss the yellow FBI map! I mean ignore it and go back to the original NWA flight and dropzone probability map. Because that map is really an expression of probabilities vrs. a literal flight path map. If I understand the conversations Jerry and I have had, H left Portland in a helicopter wanting to intercept 305 north east of Portland - to try and eyeball the flight on the very faint chance he might catch some glimpse of Cooper parachuting. It was a long shot and H knew this. At one point they (H) realised they would be under 305 and they became concerned if the plane exploded they could be killed by falling debris, potentially, so they withdrew trying to monitor radio comms and decide what to do. 305 went by and they realised that so H and his company went back to Portland... But the intercept H picked (and whatever he thought he knew to chose an intercept point) puts 305 North East of Portland at least 5-10 miles, and if 305 may never have been to the west side of PDX at all as the yellow fp map illustrates; because 305 had actual instructions to avoid any populated area. Those instructions were one reasons V23 was picked in the first place as an alternative to a coastal route. With a coastal route over the ocean Cooper would have vanished and could not be apprehended. (That is the story I have ... ) The above version is why Jerry looks where he looks vs. other places... If this is true then any account Rat could give would be from his right side forward vector out toward Portland. There is another small airport east of PDX near the Columbia whose name constantly escapes me, but I have been told by several people 305 crossed the Columbia very close to that airport. Jerry can confirm or deny or elaborate on everything I have said here -

Yes that's sensible, if you're making an excuse to not do the experiment :) It would be easy to measure the force needed to strip rubber bands from a bundle of dollar bills. You could spray a bundle with a fire hose. What happens? The bundle and the rubber bands move together. (think of the relative surface area of the two items, for one) See the problem in your thought experiment, is that the turbulence is acting on both the bands and the dollar bills. So you have to think about differential forces, not just forces. reply: the above was not mine but 1969's. You also to include some number for the age of the bands - ?

I think you're 99% right in everything above - It could account for fragments scattered over an area, even after spreading, all in the same relative strata ... that is why the mention of fragments gets my attention. The turbulence and shear forces would tend to suck bundles apart, I would think. I think the dredge is a viable theory but I also think early deposit in '71-72 covered over by dredge silts which eroded is a viable theory. I dont think Ckret's '79 late deposit theory is viable at all because 78-79 were dry years. There are some aspects of this I cant speak to because of Tom's work but any deposit theory must account for the condition of the money and the surrounding strata and soil content, as found.

If east of V23 and Rat is in the right seat what is his angle of view toward Portland. If east of V23 then he must be looking out his right hand window. A distance estimate might be based on that, the angular line to Portland vrs a straight line ahead which obviously cannot intersect Portland if east of V23? I mentioned all of this long ago with cockpit photos - What mystifies me is Rat's supposed statement: 'could see the surburbs of Portland coming up, 5-10 mins after last contact with Cooper at 8:05, and had not crossed the Columbia yet' How does this statement fit with what Jerry is describing or can it fit?

Jerry, you might mention the instructions to 305 to avoid (fly around) populated areas because of the bomb, .... I mean Portland. This my understanding? No such instructions appear in the recorded transcripts. That does not mean such instructions did not happen, perhaps from Nyrop on phone patch... because such instructions would be a standard protocol for planes carrying a bomb near populated areas. So, I personally think it very likely such instructions happened which goes to the issue I have been pushing a long time: The transcripts are not the complete or even the most vital communications which occurred on 11-24-71 (the gap from 8:13-8:20 apx being the most glaring example).

A little ballsey request for a non-jumping GUEST on a Skydivers website wouldn't ya say! I made my first in 1963 at Castle Rock.

NOTICE TO THE GROUP: SLUGGO EMAIL VIRUS NOTICE! I have received an email from Sluggo informing me and others, that someone got into his computer system and is sending out emails under Sluggo's name, which contains a virus. It is safe to assume whoever is sending the emails has the email addresses of anyone and everyone who has ever communicated with Sluggo - which may include members of this forum. I can only assume Sluggo will post here about this problem as soon as he can - Sluggo did not identify the virus contained the FAKE email going out under his name - Perhaps Snowmman can help in this matter given his extensive IT and chip design background. ?? Please direct any questions to Sluggo at his website or to his personal email address which is up and working. Sluggo told me he is picking up the pieces which may account for him not posting here about the problem. If anyone here can explain or add further information, please do so. This is a bonafide post and notice. I hope Sluggo doesnt mind my having posted this for the benefit of people here - Georger.

h) Dredge acts like a funnel, sucking deposits seems to me you had better examine the "sucking" aspect of the problem, with respect to the money that was found, the condition of that money, rubber bands in place, distribution of fragments found, etc ? Im sure you can rubberneck it.

QuoteI hadn't gotten this from his book, but in this news article, it says he got a full list of dredging projects from the Corps of Engineers, and that only the 1974 one was interesting. HIS SEARCH FOR DB COOPER GIVES HIM A SECOND CAREER $2.95 - Miami Herald - NewsBank - May 11, 1985 He obtained a list of dredging projects from the corps and said only one of them, in 1974, could have deposited debris on the proper spot on the river bank. ... Over breakfast coffee, Tosaw showed off the list of dredging projects the corps had provided him and said only one of the projects, in 1974, ... p.s. Georger suggested "narcissim" at one point. I will admit that I loved this scene in Malice. He was such an ass! (Alec Baldwin as Dr. Jed Hill). I believe he ad-libbed, and the line at the end was supposed to be "Let me tell you something - Duane is God". (sometimes when I read a georger post, I'm picturing Dr. Jed Hill!) Quote PLEEEZE do not put words in my mouth, especially without explaining your intended context, if you have anything in your mind: p.s. Georger suggested "narcissim" at one point. Are you trying to start a war here or what? Think you are immune? Think you can do damage because its the Internet and nobody cares? Thinks if people are damaged its their fault? Why am I an ass? We know why you are what you are and it is the reason you are excluded! How long do we have to put up with this, Snowmman? Quade: I have had enough of Snowmmans and Jo's insults. Its been going on for months. How much are we expected to take ? Whgat these two jerks are doing goes way beyond freedom of speech or anything related to that - I am wondering if its even safe to be here with people like Snowmman and Weber here.. I am now going to make my thoughts known to outsiders who also monitor this socalled forum. I may be an "ass" as Sbowmman says but something tells me this is not the firtst time Mr. Snowmman and Jo Weber have been through this kind of thing, experienced internet games players that they obviously are. So be it. Thanks. Georger

Quotegeorger mused: Mused? Are you amused?

Distilling this, yes, its a fact there was dredging that dumped material on Tina Bar. If the money was part of the material dumped then the dredge picked the material up where, given other evidence the river bottom seems remarkably clean? A dredge digs down into the bottom how far? How would a bag of money have been bottom-fixed at all, except by a snag? On the other hand we see the piles of material dumped and spread out on the bar. We see a shift and slide of one pile back toward the river. By '76 much evidence of a deposit in late '74 is gone (from photos). Isnt it just as likely the money came to Tina Bar in late '71 or early '72 and was silted in place approx 100ft up from the shoreline, and then covered over by the dredging silt, then finally exposed by erosion between late '74 and early '80?

QuoteI wasn't going to respond, but maybe some jumpers can talk about their mental states and add something interesting. Georger's long post musing on Cooper's mental state sounded okay on first read, but then I thought, no it doesn't feel quite right. some thoughts; "In either event physics takes over and applies to Cooper from that point on." I think the jumpers would disagree with that. It wouldn't be an interesting sport if you just resign yourself to uncontrollable forces once you step outside. If it was just physics once Cooper stepped outside, it would be easier. But vagaries about the rig, and Cooper's abilities, whether trained or untrained, are probably stronger-order determinants of success here, than the physics. Those are all physical components, or what am I missing? Physics! Bio-physics. Once again you stray from the issues: trained or untrained, lucky vs unlucky, the winds, etc etc etc... That's why analyzing wind etc, doesn't really matter. It's second order. Even the night is second order. Because an untrained person can overcome all those difficulties. McNally proved it, for one. It would be easier to guess at something like "put a shotgun in your mouth, pull the trigger, do you live or die?" There the physics is more of a sure thing. Quote Trying to distill the above: so you are saying the probability which governs Cooper's jump is the same probability which governs one instance of an untrained jumper jumping, which isnt as high as: "it would be easier to guess at something like "put a shotgun in your mouth, pull the trigger, do you live or die?" There the physics is more of a sure thing." What I have noticed about your posts is, what assures you Cooper had the same thought patterns you have? That he assessed probabilities the way you do? That Cooper saw and evaluated things in the same way you do? Or is there some universal way of looking at this you know that I dont know about? _______________________________________________ I'm thinking of wanting to jump off a moving train. You know the train is accelerating, so it only gets worse the more you delay. So as long as you're confident that the future is guaranteed worse than the present, you go with the present, since it's the best option. And you jump off the train. Quote You mean jump early before the train accelerates? That could agree with Ckret and the theory Cooper wanted to jump at SEA just after takeoff. Of course that poses new issues for a jump of that nature vrs waiting, as Cooper waited and the pilots trimmed the plane to accomodate a jump which is the actual record of what occured? So if we apply your logic to Cooper under the premise your logic is a universal logic Cooper must apply, then Cooper screwed up by not jumping before the plane had "accelerated"? (The plane must at least become airborn or should he have jumped out the back on the runway before the plane was airborn, under your theory?) I just dont see that some of your logic applies to Cooper, or conforms with the actual the record, but maybe youc an clear all of this with: Georger just does not understand?