georger

I think Larry was spending a lot of personal time combing files, trying to get up to speed, looking for things to answer our question, AND replying very heavily on reports he had from "experts" like Palmer etc. A mix of confusion certainty and when it comes to Tosaw, plain avoidance. From a professional point of view if I were Larry I would feel Tosaw was a bit of an intruder .... imagine how H might feel.

Note: The comment about the Columbia, as far as Ckret told us, was "felt", not seen. I have been agonizing over thse three ticks for a long time - ask Sluggo. Remember I asked Sluggo what they were - he didnt have the faintest idea. Maybe they certify "this whole map is a guess" ?

My impression is they felt it in their ears suddenly then looked at nstruments -

377 If you go back and look at when I was beating on Larry about how they knew Cooper jumped before the Columbia, it was weird. He provided very little information..Nothing more than the one liner I posted above. Yet he was confident Cooper jumped before the Columbia. This mirrors the absolute fact Jerry believes he got from Himmelsbach, although Jerry didn't repeat whatever Himmelsbach said. (I think Himmelsbach is good at sounding factual, when he's just spouting his personal theories/stories, so it's easy for listeners to be swayed, and then when they get home, they can't remember exactly why they were convinced...) So: it got me thinking..why would Larry be so dogmatic about anything? Why would he care? I think Larry tends to get dogmatic when the evidence is weak. I don't know why. He did the same thing when I pushed back on the age thing. So: We need the "Guaranteed To Have Jumped Before The Columbia" evidence that's being held secretively. (note that even if it's true: how soon minimally before the Columbia? 30 seconds? 1 minute? What's the theory/data/interview say and why is it correct?) What's weird is that Larry was perfectly happy to say the Jump Point was incorrectly calculated at 8:11. We had data/report that showed how that error occurred. But we don't have data that would help us on the rest. I guess it's the Rataczak interview. Don't know if there's anything else. (edit) Things to think about: Vancouver was much smaller then. Both rivers have similar widths. Both rivers have bridges over them. They're both going roughly east-west when 305 crosses them. And Rataczak said "Portland". And Rataczak was not from the Northwest. My guess is, Larry already knew 'everything' we have come up with, except for when you came up with the comic book. I have a strong suspicion that is the case, or some close relative of that.

Hmmmm Snow, that's not a bad theory. Not bad at all. It never ceases to amaze me how you parse new stuff out of old info that to me, has been thoroughly analyzed and isn't worth revisiting. I have viewed aerial landscapes at night and made errors based on seeing what I expected to see rather than what is actually there. You initially make the scene fit your expectation and ignore the inconsistent stuff. In a short time as a window gazing passenger, you realize your error, but the NWA crew was very busy with other stuff and probably wasn't spending a lot of time looking at the ground landmarks. 377 I think a lot of this depends on how well Rat and Scott and Anderson knew the area, Tina too. How many times had they flown V23 before coming south? When Rat says "can SEE the suburbs of Portland ahead" thats very specific to me. Likewise, had not crossed the Columbia yet". But Vancouver is not mentioned so they were close enough for it not to be mentioned OR they were headed at Portland with Vancouver not in their thoughts.

True. The word Felt masks all the hard data. I find that very strange. Maddening frankly. If they "felt" Cooper had jumped then why didn't they "feel" to take some hard bearings? It almost sounds as if nobody cared. I can only go back to what 'I think' pilots would. The bump occurs and Scott, Rat, and Anderson recognmise that as 'maybe just jumped'. So failing to take hard notes (we dont know they didnt!), Rat looks around because he's flying the airplane, Scott in on the radio, and Rat sees (off in the distance out his right front window?) they are approaching Portland and the Columbia. He cant see the Columbia or the Willamette but he can see the the light Portland coming up. The question is, how far off? Rat never mentions Vancouver at all! Rat doesnt say: "Vancouver and Portland". He just says Portland. The fact he names only Portland may mean they were close and Portland was literally coming up ahead and the most prominent single object ahead or to directly to the right. He never mentions Vancouver being in his field of view so that potentially gives us a clue about distance. If they had been 20 miles away it would have been both, the lights of Portland-Vancouver. So they are closer than say 20 miles and whatever Rat's angle with respect to Portland, its either directly ahead or out his right window and they are close enough Rat doesnt bother to include Vancouver in his statement. To me, those elements define "felt". I have to assume they knew where they were and where the Columbia and Willamette were not because they were looking at these objects specifically but because they knew where these rivers fit in the general perspective of "Portland only" ahead or immediately to Rat's right-front ... coming up on Portland. Dont forget (Rat knew this). The Columbia is before Portland. If they havent crossed the Columbia then they arent "in" or "over" Portland yet. And this defines exactly what Rat said ... "could see the suburbs of Portland ahead" ?

Persuasion had nothing to do with. Yesterday the 27th of March would have been Duane's and my anniversary - All I was doing was TRYING to think what was going thru Duane's mind when he did the Hijacking in 1971. Note that Quade did not say the whole synopsis was illogical, but part of it was. When I read what I had written I agreed that part was not logical. PS - Dan Cooper died 14 yrs ago today - March 28th 1995. If it were only true. How simple life would be. And turns out it is simple, in this case!

Very important insight, G. I like it. I thought of you when I wrote it, actually. I think its 80% true. I have wondered if someone at the FBI looks at the Cooper case and thinks: hmmmm nice phd thesis in organisational crime investigation management, there. I say this under the assumption modern investigative organisational methods have improved! And some guy at the FBI is reading this thinking ... "what a throwback!'. You're psychic G. Before I jumped in with you DBC'ers I was writing a book about really big money and really big power - what NY Times bestselling author John Perkins calls the "corporatocracy." I was writing about how I see their influences at the local level, like the county sheriff's, fire departments, etc. I see their fingerprints every where I go, ie: why does corporate America push so hard for No Child Left Behind? The Mauck murders, which I think I posted about a week or so ago. Flight 800. The syringe wash-ups in NY in 1988 that closed the beaches for the summer. These are stories that I've covered/investigated and after thirty years I'm sensing a pattern, a familiarity to it all. And now with the economy! It's all deja vu all over again, again. I'd really like to talk with Tim Geitner's boss when TG was in charge of the NY Fed. What is Big Boys' end game? They already control all the money - what more do they want? As for NWA and the FBI-DBC. Whew............yeah, let's go to the Minny Apple and talk to some guys..... You can't suspend entropy or natural selection. Nobody can.

well my free association was: maybe McChord data did not go into the making any map. Corporations are kind of funny that way. Each to his own. Each likes to think they can do it alone. So nobody shares with anybody. Net result: NWA makes maps used by the FBI and miltary stays silent, does nothing even though they have data and could have made or helped make a map. Obviously if planes are being scrambled by the military they have to know where the target is. Is there a military map somewhere that never saw the light of day? Can we make anything out of this situation which helps make a new map?"

Loss of the Mode C transponder does not mean the “blip” was lost. It just means the blip has no ID associated with it and the controller isn’t sure of the aircraft’s altitude. (Based on experience from 1991 – 1998 [your mileage may vary]). Ah okay. It doesn't matter anyhow. The transponder is lost at 8:54 PST in the transcript. So that was well after the interesting time for Cooper. (edit) as a sanity check: at 200 MPH, they would have gone about another 87 Miles in 26 minutes. So say 190 mile range for the radar, roughly. (edit) just remembered they didn't go in a perfectly straight radial from Seattle, so max radar range was probably less than 190 miles. I'm assuming the earlier ident requests, and the transponder lost message at 8:54, meant the radar operator had transponder up to 8:54, so minimally, had radar blip till 8:54, from Seattle ARTCC. Now: if the flight map radar data was from McChord, I'm assuming it was at least as good as Seattle ARTCC, otherwise they would have used Seattle ARTCC. Unless Seattle ARTCC didn't have recording capability or something like that. Is it reasonable to assume all military involvement was being coordinated using McChord data?

Loss of the Mode C transponder does not mean the “blip” was lost. It just means the blip has no ID associated with it and the controller isn’t sure of the aircraft’s altitude. (Based on experience from 1991 – 1998 [your mileage may vary]). Many times when on a flight plan (which I seldom do since I am VFR only) or entering a “Mode C Veil,” I have had a controlled ask that I; “Ident and say altitude,” meaning either I was in a group of other aircraft, (all squawking VFR) or if on a flight plan he just wanted to make sure he had me ID’ed and the Mode C Transponder was returning the correct altitude. This is not unusual. There are “on aircraft” issues that will cause the Mode C Xponder to report the wrong altitude (like a clogged reference port on the pitot-static system. Also, remember 305 was squawking 3100. In 1971 this was a suggestion from some “international agency” and was probably left up to the individual airline policy. The 7500 “Hijack” code was made part of the FARs sometime later. I looked it up and discussed it with 377 but I don’t remember when. Maybe 377 remembers. Squawking 3100 may have made the ATC a little on edge and wanting to make sure he was "on top of it." Sluggo_Monster [Very sleepy after driving through a blizzard, but now warm and comfy in a nice motel in Farmington, NM) Two silly questions: do you know anyone (old in management) at NWA? ................................... at Continental ? what do think about a hypothetical path from the Lake Merwin point (using the NWA map) to near Troutdale ? Do you see any inherent contradictions with what's in the Transcripts?

Jo, your logic here is flawed. If he planned on getting caught and spending his life in prison with free medical care then jumping makes no sense at all. In fact, the hi-jacker simply would have turned himself in at the first opportunity. HE'S HOOKED! HE'S POSTING! Just assured my place as the first to be tossed).

It's very simple if you remember one thing. Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach. Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI) The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time. I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ. They may not have had all the information. Yes! and it has to be NWA Soderlind group. Who else would it be? WHO HAS THE VESTED INTEREST AND IS FEEDING INFO TO THE FBI? - NWA! This is a corporate matter just as I have said. The FBI is being directed by NWA, maybe with a little input from McChord. But it is NWA wagging all tails, nbot the FBI, not McChord. The FBI and LE are totally reliant on NWA for everything. Thats trhe chain of command dictated by WHO has the flight info! The probably were many phone conversations and some with H, all from NWA. I will say it again: the one source we have nothing zero zip from is ..... NWA! The gaps in info are with NWA. H probably doesnt know and never knew all of the discussions and decision making that got passed to the FBI from .... NWA. Everyone including the FBI was dependent on who? ... NWA. That is where the missing links are ... at NWA ... and they will never talk. Why should they! This is a corporate matter. H doesnt even have all the answers ... H was in Portland. NWA was at Minneapolis. Very important insight, G. I like it. I thought of yuou when I wrote it, actually. I think its 80% true. I have wondered if someone at the FBI looks at the Cooper case and thinks: hmmmm nice phd thesis in organisational crime investigation management, there. I say this under the assumption modern investigative organisational methods have improved! And some guy at the FBI is reading this thinking ... "what a throwback!'.

Nice!*****

I hear ya Georger. I know a very accomplished PhD physical scientist who literally believes the world was created in seven days. It is in the Bible so it is true, PERIOD! He goes into tortured twisted relativistic time distortion theories to make it work out. Einstein and Feynman would blanche. Hey, whatever makes you sleep well and not fear death. 377 It was a relative of Bertrand Russell's (the mathematician) who first calculated the Earth's age at around 4000BC. His name was Usher (Rev. Usher). He was a distinguished member of the Royal Geographic Society, knowledgable in geology, botany, a staunch anti Darwinist and a Minister in the King's Church. He literally had Russell kicked out of Oxford for a time because of Russell's 'unprincipled rebellious views'. Russell said later when he was working on his epic "Principia Mathematic" (written with Whitehead) he suddenly had a vision of Usher standing in the corner of the room one afternoon, and he promptly tore up everything he had written that day in order to expunge any influence Usher might have had that day! Russell never forgave the old bastard.

You nailed it Orange. If you dont believe in Occam's razor then you'd catalog Asimov's novels in the non fiction section of the library. Why are conspiracies, UFOs, ghosts and other such things so much more enticing and fun than plain old physics and physiology? 377 Because metaphysics offers an ANSWER. And people want and need ANSWERS. Science lags behind often not able to give a concrete technical answer, and then when a technical answer is available people dont understand it, and then when a physicist say opts for a general layman's level answer it comes out unintuitive ........ its no wonder people dont believe in science, while also using it! One of the best astro photographers I know, a guy you would always go to for mathematical solutions and great astro photography still believes and preaches .... the Earth was created in 4000BC. And he ahs more people on his side than on mine.

I agree with G., but I don't view Occam's razor as a bias. It is common sense. If you don't use it, you can bring in the paranormal/conspiracies/new age "science" etc. to explain all mysteries. 377 I mentioned this looooong ago here. It's interesting isn't it - those of us in jobs where we apply occam's razor in practice (yes, i do too as a fundamental principle of my eco modelling) clearly have a predisposition to apply it here. then again, occam's razor usually holds. so for example: it makes much more sense to conclude that Duane wasn't Cooper, than that there has been an FBI/CIA conspiracy in place for 30 years to hide the fact that he was. I just watch and count the number of 'epicycles' people begin adding to their theories to get things to work. Thats a reference back to Aristotle. I see it all the time in business, science, everywhere.

To you maybe you ever seen a tandem pax jumping from a cessna? most of the time it is a BIG deal! how many jumps did you have when you jumped the jet, 377? Any tandem jump from a Cessna is a big scary hassle. I have watched the sheer terror up close too many times. I have always worried that some Cessna tandem passenger would throw up, they looked close. I think that getting out on the strut is terrifying to newbies. Stepping out of an open door is not. You fear falling off of things that you are hanging on to. Also, the prop is scary to newbies and it is very close. The protocol there is "Depends" (diapers). Just watch a guy's face as his ________ leaks! I shouldnt say this but damn, I always got a chuckle out of that. Shows my mean side.

Agreed. Just add "and for some reason, we still can't get all the facts, like the damn Palmer Clay Layer Report"......I swear when TK was on TV, he probably didn't know about the Palmer Report. How else to explain his "maybe" when asked if the money was there all along, on camera? Or did he know about the Palmer Report and has discounted it for some reason? I don't know. Keep in mind the tv bits are reluctantly done, well maybe a tiny piece of Hollywood. Tom was being coy. Tom and I (and others) have argued a lot about the Palmer report, which we have. I will just say it.

I don't know Snow, sounds like a pleasant afternoon to me. It is just like hunting or fishing, you know. A few tall tales are expected. Talk about "the one that got away"... Cooper is the ULTIMATE. 377 Right, agree. And Sluggo has confirmed Ralph likes to tell stories. He's a storyteller. That's his profile. And he's an old guy now. Old guys like to stick to their old stories. They like to be "right". That simple. What amazes me, is guys like Jerry come on here, and profess the religion of "facts". And then in the next breath start talking about how they know Cooper is a "common criminal" and how he jumped in the woods, and all sorts of random speculation. Georger got me right with Jo and the castration theory. I want to hear Georger's theory on why Jerry needs to pal up with Himmelsbach. Is it the same castration theory? My fantasy looks better in a dress though. Thats between Jerry, H, and me! No comment.

My relatives at Vancouver said/say: "people were at Tina Bar all the time". Im not sure what Jerry says on this - Of course that wouldnt apply during high water or floods which means an article could get deposited and silted over fairly quickly, I think, not to be noticed. Jerry what do you think?

This is exactly correct. The investigation was incredibly bad. Data was not preserved. Anecdotes ran rampant. Reply: No. Only partly true. The "investigation" was just not coordinated and no structure may have existed for there to be coordination. And under it all NWA has corporate financial interests to protect! Let me put it this way for you - you will like this maybe. The truth to Cooper is random walk through beaurocratic mass! Nobody along the trip has all of the facts!

The most interesting recent fact is someone mentioning the complete lack of NWA statements - funny how it is nearly impossible to view the past without distortion as my immediate thought was there must be a mountain of paperwork/risk assessments and other documentation they would have had to fill out. Perhaps back then they just sent a ticket person to the local police dept and reported hijacking and then put in insurance claim over the phone One fact is certain in my mind: NWA drew the dropzone map, which the first graphic attempt by anyone to document the flight of 305. I think the map came from Soderlind and a smallgroup who huddled and put the map together in Minneapolis based on the realtime live conversations with 305 the night of 11-24-71. Then NWA shared their map with the FBI and LE. Probably faxed it to them.. some clerk may know all about it! NWA may even have had a protocol for handling such events. Nyrop was available almost instantly for one thing. Everybody knew everybody, people were working in various roles very quickly, ... the whole thing suggests corporate protocols activated. In addition, we dont really know what the role of the FAA was in this or how large, reports they made, roles they played... The Cooper story is a story of how beaurocracies work. And every single person you talk to who who played some role in the total beaurocratic structure is 'dead sure' his facts are the true facts and the only facts! And you know that cannot be true. People in beaurocracies are like that however. Every single person is an expert in his or her role and an "authority", until it all unravels in the end and nobody knows anything!

It's very simple if you remember one thing. Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach. Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI) The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time. I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ. REPLY :::::::::: one more thing. What could account for Rat and Scott showing up late with info to the FBI? Orders from NWA! Scott/Rat dont work for the FBI. Im not saying Scott & Rat lied or witheld info exactly, just that their orders come from ... NWA. If anyone knows what happens corporate officials at NWA have the best info, were talking as the event was happening, ....... now maybe others were listening but I seriously wonder if anyone in the FBI overheard the phone patched conversation between 305 and NWA officials? I strongly suspect NWA knows more than the FBI did.

It's very simple if you remember one thing. Most of this "stuff" you're hearing is direct from Himmelsbach. Himmelbach made up a whacky theory about where 305 was, and that's what you're hearing. (this was after he left the FBI) The only problem with the 72 search area, was how they determined the 8:11 jump point. We don't have enough information to really understand, but it seems like they didn't incorporate, or understand, all of the testimony, at the time. I also think it wasn't "FBI", but outsiders that created the DZ. They may not have had all the information. Yes! and it has to be NWA Soderlind group. Who else would it be? WHO HAS THE VESTED INTEREST AND IS FEEDING INFO TO THE FBI? - NWA! This is a corporate matter just as I have said. The FBI is being directed by NWA, maybe with a little input from McChord. But it is NWA wagging all tails, nbot the FBI, not McChord. The FBI and LE are totally reliant on NWA for everything. Thats trhe chain of command dictated by WHO has the flight info! The probably were many phone conversations and some with H, all from NWA. I will say it again: the one source we have nothing zero zip from is ..... NWA! The gaps in info are with NWA. H probably doesnt know and never knew all of the discussions and decision making that got passed to the FBI from .... NWA. Everyone including the FBI was dependent on who? ... NWA. That is where the missing links are ... at NWA ... and they will never talk. Why should they! This is a corporate matter. H doesnt even have all the answers ... H was in Portland. NWA was at Minneapolis.