georger

Dont give them any ideas!

just astounding. I wonder if the final product would pass FDA standards much less street standards? (as I sit here munching and puffing on my cigar!)

By the way Orange1, the first mention of the paper bag (that I can find) is an article by Associated Press writer Joe Frazier (not the boxer, I assume) on November 13th, 1976. It mentions the paper bag but has no mention of the briefcase! Go figure????? I am even more intrigued by "THE NEXT NIGHT" (attached segment from article). Where did Frazier get this? Himmelsbach? This had to come from a fairly high level and I cannot believe Frazier would write this without having some foundation for it, from someone. (It seems to me now this is not the first time I have heard this)... but I cant find anything to shed light on it - so far.

and I have LOTS more! But I didnt come here to discuss Duane Weber, Jo's light bulb! Several things are however, worth noting - Duane had long emotional baggage - personality issues or as Jo has described it (to minimise it) 'authority issues'. Duane had a long criminal history. It is unlikely he stopped in 76 so much as just changed strategies. That is the typical path low level career criminals take until they are too old or too burned and affraid to do anything significant. Their crimes become white collar crimes based on deception and opportunity. A high percentage of these types wind up in Realty and Insurance fraud, for example which is as much "civil" as straightout "criminal". But I believe Jo's comparison of Weber to McCoy is based on several lies. (a) physical and skills similarity which is a lie. (b) similarity in temperament which is a lie. (c) similarity of criminal type when in reality Weber and McCoy were vastly different kinds of personalities with Weber passive aggressive and McCoy an active criminal type who would not hesitate to turn physically violate if trapped (which is what happened and got him killed). The two men are simply different criminal types with Weber the weaker and more passive vrs. McCoy. Weber could not begin to perform the physical feats McCoy did on a routine basis and if Jo wants to push this, then Jo is a liar misrepresenting who and what Duane Weber was. That Jo Weber would try and "con" us into believing McCoy and Duane were alike, is about like Jo maintaining Duane was an angel from the planet Griswald! She might as well maintain that Duane Weber was also Barb Dayton! Jo's stories are nothing but a shell game meant for morons. An addiction to con games may be what bonded Jo and Duane together, for better or for worse. That is how it appears, or perhaps when Duane cried "Jo let it go", maybe that is the tipoff that it was Jo who invented it all in the first place! Duane Weber was no more Dan Cooper than he was Abraham Lincoln.

The whole Duane felt repsonsible for McCoy's death story never sounded logical to me. I could see it if McCoy perished in the DBC copycat jump, but he didnt. The jump went PERFECTLY. He died in a shootout after a prison escape. If he had surrendered, he would still be alive. How the hell is Duane responsible for that? Duane would have to have a very overactive conscience, and we have recidivist criminal evidence that says exactly the opposite. 377 But Jo wants to make sure we know that the Duane was the better man (escaped) and was the example McCoy followed - Now Ckret has a different version below: " Ckret JumpsLicenseIn sport : : : Jun 3, 2008, 12:24 PM Post #1995 of 10320 (1349 views) Registered: Sep 7, 2007Posts: 522 Re: [Orange1] Theory: Cooper didn't jump in the deep woods [In reply to] Can't Post I'll vouch for the Collins name for Jo, Weber used the following names: Duane Weber Duane L Weber Duane Lorin Weber Duane Larin Weber Duane Loren Weber John Collins John Chalk Collins John Claudin Collins John Claudian Collins He also used different dates of birth and Socials. Weber was arrested 26 times under the various names provided (arrests that were submitted to the FBI, there could have been more but for minor offenses) starting on 12/22/1942 and ending on 06/27/1976. All 26 arrest would have been processed by the sheriff's department were the arrest occurred or the United States Marshal Service (he committed a few federal crimes). One set of prints would have been maintained by the local arresting authority the other copy sent to the FBI. When the FBI receives the prints they create a "Master Set" of prints related to each person that prints are submitted for. If there are multiple sets for one person, the techs will use the best prints from each set to make one best Master Set. The odds that Weber was able to have someone on the inside of the FBI to alter this process is not a reality. Someone suggested comparing all prints taken from Weber (AKA) et al to those recovered from flight 305. All of the prints are at the FBI, or at least the 26 I referenced. (This post was edited by Ckret on Jun 3, 2008, 12:26 PM)" Take note of Duane's arrest 06/27/1976, the period Jo has always said Duane was "in hiding" after hyjacking 305 in 1971 ! Has Jo ever been arrested?

and the reason Duane took Jo there, according to Jo, is because Duane felt guilty-responsible for McCoy having copied him, only to be killed. That is Jo Weber's explanation. By any other accounting including Ckret's, McCoy was an accomplished parachutist etc, and was only caught (Ckret said) because "McCoy had a big mouth." Nobody including Ckret questions McCoy's skills. But Jo is telling us the opposite! Jo says it was Duane who had the superior skills and set the example (being Cooper) which McCoy followed ultimately paying with his life. And Duane felt guilty and responsible. Thus, Duane drove Jo to McCoy's house .... for a moment of regret and worship and prayer, in McCoy's behalf@! Ckret says McCoy was an expert and Cooper was a novice. Jo says Duane was the expert, and McCoy the failed novice Duane felt guilty and responsioble for. Those are two diametrically opposing stories about McCoy; Jo's story vrs. everyone elses story.

I fear they don’t. The more I dig, the more I think the early investigation was botched. The level of quality control that would be used today just didn’t exist in law enforcement then. That isn’t a criticism of the dedication and professionalism of the agents and support staff, it’s just a cultural difference from what we expect today. Orange1, If you look at any of the videos on the internet about the Annual D.B. Cooper Day celebration (and a bunch of “In Search Of…” type TV shows, there are plenty of SW Washingtonians that express such statements. Also, they frequently express that they hope he got away with it. Personally, I don’t believe that Cooper (necessarily) had a connection to the Pac NW. I think that in 1971, it was the logical place to pull off a hijacking of an airliner. Since the SE US was covered with Sky-Marshalls, because that’s where MOST the hijackings were happening. (i.e. Take this plane to Cuba). For an interesting article on women Sky Marshalls from April of 1971 go HERE Thanks for the clarifications - well put. I agree with it all; it fits with everything I have. There may have been next day news coverage in Reno which would show the plane still there in fact I may have something on that and will search to see - When you say: "I think that in 1971, it (WA) was the logical place to pull off a hijacking...." I come back to Snowmman's discovery that the flight was a recent addition (perhaps not even advertised). How did Cooper link up with that flight? [edit] In fact, I think Cooper may have targeted that flight among other options, or, the vulnerability of the flight on the date in question may have brought the flight to Cooper's attention because he had already been looking/thinking about opportunitives and alternatives (targets for prey). But, in order to take advtantage of the opportunity whether it was planned or spontaneous, Cooper has to be somewhere near the waterhole, so to speak. That could be anywhere from DC to Montana to Oregon/WA or even in Canada? But he has to know the flight exists and the recent addition of the flight means Cooper did all of this within a given time frame. (He cant be planning on this flight before the flight even exists). And his location has to be commensurate with finding out about the flight after it was added. This could have been clear back in August when the flight is added or the day before 11-24-71. And his paper bag could have been nothing more than a lunch bag! Or intended to look like that. A frugal business guy out conducting business frugally! H said early he thought Cooper might be food service worker! (Funny if he was).

Well then I completely misunderstood where you were going - everything you say makes perfect sense. I also picked up on the 'next night' testing. Ckret mentioned this. The article says the same crew was involved and flying the plane (I thought Solderlind was flying the plane during this test and only Harold Anderson from the crew was there according to Ckret ? Is this the same test that duplicated the bump?) Was there more than one test flight? But did you notice: "The test flight helped flight engineers and meteorologists to compute the probable drop zone to be a trapezoidal area covering about 25 square miles". ^ now we know where the NWA map came from! ^ I hope to fuck the FBI knows more than we do!!!!! If they dont they belong in a cage with Jo Weber!!!!! Jo Weber is the consumate Govt Employee!!!!!

do you suppose Hal Williams was the sole person on whose testimony artist sketches and the FBI posters were made, as the newspaper article says? do you suppose these newspaper articles are more reliable than any other newspaper articles? Mr. Williams says he doesnt know how (Duane) got tagged with the name "DB Cooper" so relying on Hal Williams as we evidently are now, does that mean all other accounts of how (Duane) got tagged with "DB Cooper" are wrong? I mean if Williams doesnt know, that's new evidence, which means nobody knows, cuz Williams doesnt know, because Williams is the sole authority (and probably knows Jo's hotel clerk who says DB Cooper was Duane)!

Before all is said and done I wanted to add something to the prior post This forum can with its collective knowledge prove or disprove that Weber was Cooper - with simple things like the SLC pic and the identification of Ed Hurand (however it was spelled). Logically I think the forum as a whole has put Coopers knowledge of jumping as basic in nature. We know that because Cooper was never been identified it is again logical his knowledge was so far back that no one remembered him and I will place a bet this knowledge was acquire under an alias. Not because he planned anything, but because the stigma resulting from any time served or military misconduct could have hindered employment. He may have also been on the run from another crime. It is very obvious Cooper was knowledgable of the WA area. If Cooper was in WA working within 20 yrs in that area he would have been around 26 yrs of age. Say 1951 - He might still have been remembered by someone. If we back of that time span to working in the area to 25 yrs...we have a 21 yrs old. Who remembers a polite normal young man who worked in the Orchards, on the pipelines, as a gofer for pilots or jumpers, who worked in the forestry program or for that matter help build airports. Earlier in this thread I asked a question which got lost in the shuffle. What is A.W.A.R.E. or I missed the answer. What is Air Base Constructors? Both of these things appear together and as a part of Webers background - the FBI nor anyone else is remotely interested in this. I am because I think this puts Cooper in WA or the area for an extended period of time --- and in an enviroment where he may have acquired the knowledge of jumping. This goes hand in hand with early firefighters and firejumpers of the late 30's and the 40's. These people were all part of the "aircraft" world of the time. (I used this term for lack of a better word within the limits of my knowledge). Who would even remember this kid or young man always eager to help with this or that. He waa always extremely polite and likeable, but used poor judgement which usually landed him in trouble. The duration of this young man's employment in the tri-sate area may not have lasted more than a few month or a couple of yrs. This profile is not just aimed at Weber, but at any young man in that same circumstance. This statement made during our trip to WA and while in the LaCamas area continues to bug me. "The people who used to live here had a son about my age". It sounded sad...I just remember he made that statement in the Washougal and LaCamas area about a farm. It makes me wonder in retrospect at this moment if the person buried at that cementary in Washougal was that young man. Just some food for thought for anyone living in the area - who might want to really do some serious research. Someone that might really care if this crime is ever solved.,,I do because if Weber was not Cooper he knew who was. If Weber was not Cooper what needs to be done is to track Duane's life during those days. I swear by all that I love and hold dear that I held certain items in my hands that could only have been acquired by Cooper. If you wish to doubt my honestly and my memory regarding this the highjacking of a 727 on November 24 th 1971 will remain forever unsolved. P[LEASE JUST STOP! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HAVE ME4RCY ON US!

And to return to what 377 said: here you had one person (Sluggo), in good faith, who was seriously trying to help you.... and you basically shafted him. You gave him access to a tiny portion of what you claim to have, you ignored his advice and then you said many ugly things about him on this forum (which you now seem to be trying to take back with your flattery more recently). I cannot see why on earth he or anyone else would now take you up on: I think there are other things going on which Jo hasnt stated (and wont) and nobody has addressed (and wont). In a sense Jo is trapped with no good way out.

Georger - I honestly don't remember if they showed any interest. I know they were aware of the watches - and they knew I with held the watches. I described the 2 watches (that Duane owned prior to our marriage) in detail to Himmelsbach. One I earlier described as rectangular - but, I was mistaken it is Square. An old Longines with a gold and natural checkered pattern on the face and 4 small diamonds. The band is more like a finely woven bracelet repeating the checkered pattern and intergrated into the watch. The band is Gold plated. The back of the watch plate is 18K which was common yrs ago. No value and it is unrepairable. He never wore this watch during our time together. The other one I described before, but this watch is in the saftey deposit box. Right now I can't even remember the name of it except to say it was a gyromatic - keeps great time and the band is not the original band. Since the FBI said that no jewelry other than the tie tack was worn by Cooper I did not see the significance after Himmelsbach and I discussed this. The third watch I gave him is nothing special, but it was the one he wore all the time and the only one that would have had DNA on it I would know to be specific to Weber. Duane was evaluated in Birmingham for a kidney transplant in 1988 or 1989 - I think they took DNA, but I was told that after he turned down the chance for the transplant it would have been destroyed. He was eligible because he had not yet turned 65. He told me that he had lived a full life and felt it would be wrong to take a kidney that might save a younger persons life. Duane turing down a chance for a kidney goes right along with the statement he made about feeling responsible for the death of someone else. This is why I think his statement about doing something that caused someone else to get killed - was remorse about McCoy since McCoy was a copycat. He told me about McCoy when we moved to VA and even showed me where he got killed, but the statement about feeling responsible for the death of another was a three or four yrs later. I did not relate the two conversations until I found out who Dan Cooper was and understood the sequence of events relating to Cooper and McCoy. Co-incidence - maybe. Me connecting unrelated things - maybe. Me lieing - absolutely not. I just want you folks to see that there are many more things other than the confession and what I held in my hands. It is not just the things he said on the trip and in the hospital - but 17 yrs of little strange things like the McCoy thing. This is an interesting post. In '88 they would have been doing cell typing & matching but not necesarily dna although Birmingham is(was) a very good hospital in '88. (Birmingham was a highly ranked research hosp. many people sought residencies in that era.) But it is in Duane's long medical history that I would be looking for dna products if I couldnt find samples at his residence - that is one reason his watches and rings wouldnt be of much interest to me. Also by the time you were dealing with the FBI Duane had been gone some years so fresh residential samples might be problematic unless specific items were kept in good condtion. (its funny what people will keep and not keep). We've been over this McCoy thing before so I wont comment - I do think you have been connecting unrelated events & things, as you put it. I do value my rural heritage. But its a lot of hard work most people dont like and it requires a long education. Im kind of a throwback in today's world -

1. Galen Cook, on his Coast-to-Coast radio appearances, if I remember correctly, said that Florence Schaffner told him that she thought DB Cooper was wearing make-up. I remember him saying that Schaffner told him that “a woman notices those kinds of things.” 2. In his book, Ralph H. says that early on in the investigation that he was very concerned Cooper wore make-up or a disguise. He never followed up on this point in the book, though, as far as I remember. 3. Russ Calame states that McCoy clearly had lots of make-up on, supposedly to make himself appear more Latino or olive-toned. Russ, thought, and still does I believe, that DB Cooper had make-up on and that McCoy was improving upon his "first" skyjacking, namely Flight 305. how so you account for Tina and others not reporting any? Have you read Ckret's prior posts about this? Have you any other sources for this?

Personal remark: I had five calves born starting late Wednesday, the last about 4:00pm yesterday afternoon right in front of my eyes! Really cool! The newborns spent the whole of today sunning themselves in the east pasture, with lots of spectators watching and petting ... the place has turned into a public zoo@

I tend to put this in personal terms and I am dead serious. ie, if I heard of it then hundreds/thousands heard of it! In fact, it is even broader than that! It was a very open secret.

First, great to see you back in the hood Twardo! I think the flight was chosen for a big expanse of suitable drop area traversed shortly after take off. By giving the crew a destination that dictated a certain flight direction, arrival over the "DZ" could be roughly confirmed just by exit timing, no need for precise navigation. I think McCoy selected his flight because he knew the area it covered and had a roughly defined "DZ" picked out. I think Cooper used the same logic. You not only need a decent landing area, you need viable egress paths and civilization nearby. Landing in the middle of the Mojave Desert (CA) or Ruby Marsh (NV) would not be optimal. An accomplice waiting on the ground with a car is a great idea, but your chances of landing near your accomplice in the pre GPS era are very very low. A boat pickup would be a novel idea but even harder to coordinate. Radios could help a pickup, but there is no evidence that Cooper had one. I know we have the pressure bump, but what if Cooper exited a hundred miles or more from where we think he did? His body could be in a place where nobody has looked. The pressure bump is compelling evidence as to when the exit occurred, but could Cooper have spoofed it? What if he gave a big bounce at the bottom of the stairs but didn't exit, climbed back up the stairs and exited much later going over the side of the stairs nearer the fuselage? Perhaps he climbed back up after the bounce and made a leap rearward from near the top of the stairs where the moment arm would cause far less stair deflection than going all the way to the bottom. All this is unlikely, but would it allow a much later exit that went undetected by the crew? The Tena Bar money find argues against all this exit spoof speculation and Occams razor says (to me) that the money find was legit, but my street smarts still smell a rat. Tom, whats up with your analysis? 377 I dont think there was any way to spoof the oscillations/bump. Moreover I am still compelled to believe (reading betwene lines) that they checked the back by ~8:20; and we know they did later. But this can all be placed in context, unless the FBi is hiding something or has rigged what we think we know. I am referring to the NWA map which I call the NWA Probability Map. If the NWA Probability Map is real and can be taken at face value then nobody was sure where Cooper had bailed (by the time the map was being prepared and presented to guide a search). This map clearly shows they felt the highest probability was in the vicinity of Merwin Lake which means they thought the "oscillations/bump" occurred over that area. (The NWA map is NWA's timeline). A lower probability of jump begins south of Merwin Lake finally ending in Oregon, which shows there was uncertainty about the flight path time line.. but the reason(s) for that uncertainty is not clear to me and has never been fully discussed here. This uncertainty NWA had is vital to this case. We have to assume the oscillations/bump was the basis for assigning a jump point, but the uncertainty is the exact time, which means the crew was probably not keeping an independent time log. (eg. Rat's statement: 10 minutes after ... seems to define the accuracy of any time line the crew was keeping, so they were relying on others they were in contact with which is very interesting!, unless we are not being told the whole story). The historical accuracy of how the NWA map was developed (by who etc) is vital to the key facts of this case. The FBI and Ckret were reluctant to even talk about this much less explore it - which I found interesting. Sluggo balked at discussing it until he finally just said "I dont know". Maybe the FBI doesnt know either! Maybe NWA was never really sure ... which is EXACTLY what the NWA Probability map itself seems to imply in literal terms. But if you shift the NWA map down by several clicks south, you probably have a truer account of the key flight aspects of this case, and where Cooper bailed and all of the events which are dependent on that frame of reference in this case.

more maybe forthcoming on this. Thats all I can say but I hope so. Cooper spent time in the head. He didnt go there just to hide.

good idea. or a homeless person.

Incidentally, why would watches not be good? I would (naively?) think that as they are constantly rubbing against your skin, that they would be a decent source of DNA? for contact dna perhaps except viability of the dna after so many years is in question - there are better sources. Watch band would be the better source if it is rough except again viability and contamination is an issue. You notice the FBI didnt ask for or take the watches. Somebody told Jo watches were a source for dna. Jo didnt come up with this on her own. And you dont have to take the watches to take swabs or evidence from them - that is usually done on site. As for Gosset's ears and features, yes, a better fit but not exact. But I seriously doubt Gosset would do something like this. Gosset would have been a good candidates for an investigator inthis case!

In the thousands of posts about DB Cooper at this forum there is not one post about finding candidates? Im going to change that. Who has always been in the best position to find candidates, except for self-confessors being promoted by someone? Us or the FBI? If you had to look for Cooper what pool of people would you examine and who has access to that pool (or pools)? Us, the FBI, or who? Except for Teddy Mayfield has anyone in the skydiving community been brought forward as candidate - and it was not skydivers who brought forward Mayfield! Should we spend time on the Vegan, Par Lith Moh- haspodipomiolwi, should someone here bring that being forward? (Get tinfoil hats ready) In other words, how much can and should a forum of this kind be expected to accomplish and can a forum even be a "productive invesitigative" tool, especially when people like Jo Weber are dominating everything? Or is there something basic about the Forum that means anyone brought up here is automatically NOT DB Cooper!?

Who told Jo watches are a preferred source for dna? Is this Jo's idea? I am trying to stay out of this debacle but I do not understand where this idea that watches are a source for DNA came from? It would not be my first choice! If we ever cared about Myths VS Facts in this forum, we threw that principle out the window wholesale (long ago) in Jo's case. That is simply a fact. Has nothing to do with ATTITUDE! (EXCEPT IN BRUCE AND JO'S WORLD)

Gosset is a real person and interesting. He is somebody Bruce could learn from. Gosset definately had the skills, the mindset (maybe) - he's almost over qualified. OK. Im so sorry. You sound ominous!. Sheesh better had get out of here.

I have been communicating with Galen Cook and he remains confident about Gosset. Gosset did have Ft Lewis connections, provable military parachute training, money trouble, local knowledge etc. None of that proves he was Cooper but it makes him a person of interest. I can't see why Gosset, a local, would do NORJACK without a disguise. Gosset's Cooper confessions also seem odd in that if they were true they heightened his risk and he got nothing tangible in return. Was it an ego thing? Telling a former judge that you are a wanted felon is risky as hell. Gosset is a real person and interesting. He is somebody Bruce could learn from. Gosset definately had the skills, the mindset (maybe) - he's almost over qualified. But I doubt he was Cooper. ( I think Sluggo's initial perceptions about Gosset were good). I can see why Cook would take a good look at Gosset and pursue him. To my way of thinking, qualifications matter in the Cooper affair. Just the right set of qualifications, just as Ckret proposed it but not necessarily Ckret's exact weighting ... but close.

No, you don't. And I really don't need to explain that any further. And if you can't actually read 377's post objectively, then you will never understand why people cannot take you seriously, even those who were at first inclined to do so (and I was one of those, way back when.) And you will not understand why by now practically no-one has any interest in expending energy to help you answer your who when where questions with photos of unnamed people, at mostly undetermined places at undetermined times and sometimes even of indeterminate gender. When I look back at that sentence I start thinking Georger is right - you really do treat this as if it is a game. I'm sure that's not your intention, but it sure is what it comes across as. Jo has no evidence. She never did. The only thing Jo has evidence of to some extent. is that she and Duanes spoke about McCoy and then Cooper. Who knows who spoke of it first or how much, but it was at Virginia Beach. Then comes Jo's report of Duane's death confession, which there is no independent witness of. (More Jesus on the toast). The amazing thing to me is that Jo has gotten as much mileage as she has. Fundamentally people don't care. That is the mine Jo (and Bruce) have been mining. But a coal mine is not a gold mine no matter how you pitch it! Just imagine how different this forum would have been without Jo Weber (or Archie!) but then maybe no one would have come or tuned in... In spite of that, I know the FBI has gotten it's money's worth! And anyone else who was looking for a free ride to "Goslow". (anyone know the movie Im talking about?)