georger

Like Orange1, I don't understand 1) why the FBI wouldn't have been told this, or if they were, still opted to spend how many times over the money gained in the hijacking still supposedly searching for him 40 years later?? 2) Why the public wasn't told. Corporate mentality doesn't make sense to me - Search for "hijack foiled by crew" from 1960 - 1980 and see all the articles where the crew was instrumental in stopping a hijacker. The crew members are always the good guys. The only reason Cooper is a "folk hero" is after the fact that he "got away" and didn't physically hurt anyone. If the crew pitched him by control movements in the cockpit, they could've put any spin they wanted on the story to make them look like heroes -- (i.e., he tried to attack them when he realized one of the chutes was inoperable, the airplane experienced weather turbulence while he was on the stairs, etc.). I doubt they would have even needed to spin it. Okay - so the devil's advocate in me says I can't discount anything until I try to make sense of it....so the only reason I can think that they would not have publicized this: Tina is distraught - she had an emotional investment in this guy because of the time they spent together under stress (Stockholm syndrome??). She thinks they essentially murdered him. To calm her down, they reassure her that he jumped....she tries to believe them -- but in the back of her mind she knows...and this knowledge haunts her throughout her life. In the ensuing flight, the other three crew members come to the same conclusion through between-the-lines talking and furtive glances...too much luggage here with the broad...................he was leaving, no threat to us out there on the stairs........ ummm maybe we screwed up.........maybe we need to just say he jumped. Maybe just to protect Tina's psyche or maybe they or their corporate bosses are afraid to risk subsequent investigation or that public opinion could turn sour. Nah....still don't see it. Surely, that same pilot machismo that pitched him would've been aching to tell about it? I still think they would've been heroes and if Tina publicly disagreed, they could have sworn to the turbulence from the weather (doesn't have to be a storm - Pilot Scott has stated (source - news article) that they encountered turbulence during the flight). Tina, acclaimed though she once was for maintaining her chi, would've have been summarily dismissed as a flighty female and thrown to the wolves. Sucks, but that's life. So....... I can see the crew dropping him in the lurch -- just that the crews subsequent actions don't make sense. If not another myth... and Cooper didn't throw the bags around cause he had a grudge against Sky Chef(s), could turbulence or turns or landing pitched those bags of food around? What am I missing here? Why am I missing it? Did I not say Geof's source for the galley story is retired FBI agent, Snow. A retired FBI agent is FBI! FBI = FBI! FBIxFBI = FBI. FBI/FBI = FBI. FBI[FBI]/FBI = FBI. FBI+FBI+FBI = FBI. All of the laws of association & distribution apply! The FBI did know. The FBI is the source of the story. Ask Geof Gray - he published it. Geof Gray interviewed Agent Snow, he says. As to "turbulence" - its above my pay grade. I am not going to speak to that issue because it will only piss people off - who are already pissed off due to the solar flare index and the call for sources and attributions which the same people apparently cant read, dont believe, or wont buy because its not coming from a skydiver who knwos how many molecules it takes to make a hairpin & a Big Mac?

Georger, it's hardly going to expert testimony, just observations and a bit of speculation. The subjects I am going to talk about are: 1. The rigs and canopies, as I have jumped all the basic types that Cooper had aboard, although the military bailout rigs I jumped were modified to accept chest mounted reserves. 2. Jumping from a transport category passenger jet. I have done that (only once) from a DC 9-21. 3. The choice of rigs and speculation about whether it might have been an intelligent rather than random choice to pick a military bailout rig with a C9 over a sport rig with a PC. 4. The Thailand 727 static line jump videos and what they tell a jumper about the issues involved in trying a freefall exit. 5. The risk of a fatal spin/tumble if Cooper were inexperienced and tried to freefall, especially at night with asymmetrical stuff possibly strapped to him. When I learned skydiving there were no AFF jumpmasters hanging on to you. You had to teach yourself freefall stability and it was not easy. I've experienced wild tumbling and disorientation, big time. Do I know who Cooper was? No, I don't. Jo, however is sure she does. Do I know if Cooper survived the jump? No, I don't. Jerry, however is sure he does. I wish everyone who posts here would come. I'd like to meet em all, even those I spar with. 377 I havent the faintest idea who Cooper was. I do have ideas on 'what' Cooper was but I keep that to myself for the mostpart. Ask Geof at the symposium about the Galey story - ask him to state everything he was told. Maybe Tom Kaye knows something? I have no idea.

I'm one of the "outsiders" that Georger mentions above. No flight crew that I have talked to is going to sit on their hands quietly while some jerk in the rear of the aircraft has a "bomb", fake or otherwise, and has threatened to blow up them and their airplane. 377 is correct in stating that the wind would not cause the cabin to be trashed (including food on the cabin ceiling) as stated by the FBI. The airplane did not fly through a "storm" and there were no "natural" forces to cause the trashing. There is no need for any crew member to go into the cabin. Once Cooper heads down those stairs, he has lost control of the situation. A few sharp control movements in the cockpit, and unexpected by Cooper, means that Cooper may be gone a bit ahead of his schedule. Robert99 I named three sources for the story. Guess people wont read - I named Geof's source. Guess people wont read/ dont believe it. Geof will probably include this at his symposium where 377 will be giving expert testimony. No air appreciable turbulence in the back with door open and stairs down. Ckret covered that - remember? Others have covered that. Not allaged as a factor in this incident in any event. Lets wait the three weeks for 377 to digest it and then publish it as his story - then people will take it seriously, country clubs being what they are. And for Blevins' benefit: the story did not come from Galen. Im saying this to ward off another Blevins attack -

Orange, no mention of a fight in any version I have heard, from any source. No mention of crew involvement. No explanation at all for the state of the galley in any version I have been told. Just that the rear galley was found in a shambles, just as Geof describes in his book. Found by the FBI on entering 305 for its inspection. The idea that the plane might have pitched with Cooper on the stairs (to be rid of him) was not suggested in any version of the story I was told. That idea, so far as I know, has come from outsiders. Its late I need to turn in.

] They tried to kill him. There its said; not the first time its been suggested. Could be the source of the 'he died' opinion expressed with such certainty at the time. No secret some wished him deceased. They already had the bomb description and maybe knew it was a fake. So why not 'do the job'. Have a pleasant flight to Reno - all is well. Eveidence of the plane being pitched with Cooper on the stairs, all over the galley. Another conspiracy theory? Then why wouldn't they just say that's what happened? The bad guy was foiled in his attempt to take other lives and money. Accidentally or by design, surely they still would've been heroes in the eyes of the public?? What am I missing here? The only way it would make sense is if they kept the loot. What's that old saying about more than one person keeping a secret? Just seems illogical to me. Corporate image. We are not an airline that gets hijacked or kills people. Airlines do not need bad publicity - especially airlines in financial difficulty needing customers and loans. Image and publicity are on the mind of every corporate owner-manager. I am not advocating this happened. Im exploring it because someone posted it. The galley story was going to come out one way or another ... several in line to make it public ... Gray beat them, as it were. I could have posted the galley story the first day I entered this forum, but didnt. I could have posted it prior to Gray publishing but didnt because I knew he had the same info I had, but I held back in his favor. Why? Respect and a favor to Gray (he did not return!) Farflung will laugh but its a fact there is more to the story Gray apparently has not published, and Im not sure why (and now I dont care). Gray has gone his direction - I have gone mine. But the story is real independent of its veracity or Gray, or me. And, my having called Gray to explore it and other matters (vs him calling me, he says) is one of the reasons he broke his agreement and outed me - plain and simple. He claims by calling him I was "fishing and therefore became public" - his rational. (I informed 377 of this some time ago privately) When in reality I was doing Gray a favor, I thought, because of Jerry and several others, going to make sure Gray had the info if he wanted to include it. That was my only motivation. So far as I knew, Gray and I were still operating on a trust basis. Obviously Gray had other ideas and plans. There are a number of people who have thoughts about the Reno story. I have no idea if they will post here or not. Maybe Farflung can enlighten us as to what food stuffs and utensils would be kept in the (rear) galley of a 727 in 1971...

377, Don't make any bets on it being true or what caused it if it is. Just don't bet at all on this matter. If it isnt true then a lot of independent people from the day are peddling a lie - this is not a story that originated with newcomers but with the old guard. The story has made its way through the ranks far and wide. I first heard it from one of the controllers then later from several others, then in an exchange with Gray he confirmed to me he had heard it from a common source, I checked further... if the story is not true then a lot of people are peddling a myth. My reply to 377 would have reflected my intent better as follows: "Don't make any bets on Cooper trashing the aircraft. There are other possible causes. Just don't bet at all on this matter." Why would Cooper take the time or bother to trash the aircraft when he was in such a hurry to jump near Seattle? The other possible causes are what you don't want to bet against. We are thinking the same thing - you say it otherwise Far will flunge on me and demand source. They tried to kill him. There its said; not the first time its been suggested. Could be the source of the 'he died' opinion expressed with such certainty at the time. No secret some wished him deceased. They already had the bomb description and maybe knew it was a fake. So why not 'do the job'. Have a pleasant flight to Reno - all is well. Evidence of the plane being pitched with Cooper on the stairs, all over the galley. Another conspiracy theory?

I gave two sources. No three. sorry you missed it - Im sure.

nonsense.

377, Don't make any bets on it being true or what caused it if it is. Just don't bet at all on this matter. If it isnt true then a lot of independent people from the day are peddling a lie - this is not a story that originated with newcomers but with the old guard. The story has made its way through the ranks far and wide. I first heard it from one of the controllers then later from several others, then in an exchange with Gray he confirmed to me he had heard it from a common source, I checked further... if the story is not true then a lot of people are peddling a myth.

Damn - this is not what I came here to do! Making a random post was not part of my agenda when I opened the thread. You ALWAYS have an agenda.

Orange, Jerry Warner's name was in the thread before. Georger (JW) just about ruptured a heart valve that time. You could actually "hear" him raging in the written word. Check it out - my memory is good, but my searching capabilities have never been very good. Also Geoffrey's book talks about Mr. Warner. smut peddler Jo Weber - how good can the tale from a smut peddler be?

Its a commonly held story among agents and others familiar with the Reno investigation. Geof vertified it with Agent Snow.

From Skyjack, page 92: (talks about the FBI boarding 305 after it landed in Reno) Quote above got no comments - wonder why? Geof's source for this is Agent Snow who was part of the FBI crew inspecting 305 at Reno. So I will repost this again for comments? Turbulence? Temper tantrum by Cooper? Cooper sacking the galley for provisions to take along? Geof doesn't apparently tell the rest of the story in his book but a few things including food items were apparently missing and gone from the galley, verified later by the crew ? ideas - ?

Geoffrey Gray wins all popularity contests hands down. Has never posted one word here.

QuoteI've taken a fair amount of abuse here and some of it was deserved. But here's the problem: Even when I tried to comply with Georger's demands not to discuss the Thing-With-Paper-Covers-With-Text-Inside or A Certain Person Who COULD Be The Hijacker, I get hammered anyway. Quote POOOOOOOOOOR ABUSED BLEVINS! Total nonsense. The only thing I ever requested of you is that you actually win an Academy Award before announcing it. But since nobody here cares, well . . . The forum belongs to you. ps: You are nothing but TROUBLE, Blevins, and I pity anyone who has anything to do with you.

As you and Ff said, perhaps it was only an obstcle. Only Cooper knows. However it also appears there are other issues at stake; crew testimony for one. Im not going to say more. Im just going elsewhere where it can be discussed freely without intrusion.

S/Nowmann is blameless Georger. There's been no identity theft. Farflung is Farflung. If he seems a bit overpressurized at the moment blame it on Hometown Buffet, microbes and methane. 377 well he has "overpressurized" this discussion right off this forum - that is a fact. And there are reasons for this I will not explain. All shere coincidence or something. I neither know or care. But this discussion will now go elsewhere. As for the idiot's race baiting? What's next on his agenda? Jews? Far has flung too far.

Do you know who Diogenes was? '"I am Diogenes the Dog. I nuzzle the kind, bark at the greedy and bite scoundrels."

Its Snowmman or some other troll posing as Farflung _ or Farflung has sprung a leak.

and to add: was not the rear door cracked (partially open) upon tackoff from SEA, as per Cooper's request. Stairs not out/down but rear door cracked. ? Once the rear door is opened (fully) then what happens to the pressure inside the cabin? Are we correct in assuming the area immediately behind the aircraft is a low pressure area - lower than inside the cabin? Georger, With the stairs closed and the rear door to the pressure hull open, the cabin pressure would be essentially the same as the free stream static pressure as the aircraft climbed to 10,000 feet. That is, the "cabin altitude" will be essentially what is shown on the pilot's altimeter. When the stairs are lowered, the disturbances in the air flow will cause some slight change to the static pressure in the cabin but it will be essentially the same, if not exactly the same, as the static pressure in the "dead air" area. Nature abhors a vacuum and the cabin pressure will attempt to equalize with any other pressure that it is exposed to. Agree completely with the last part. Cabin will attempt to equalise with any pressure it is exposed to - Im just not getting the mechanics of the rear of this plane clear in my head for some (Farflung) reason so will quit tonight.

By the time the airflow gets to the rear of the aircraft, the layer of air immediately adjacent to the structure has transitioned from a "laminar" to a "turbulent" boundary layer. This change is what puts the dust on the rear window of your station wagon when you drive down a dirt road. You can see the same process behind cars when driving down the highway when it is raining. The static pressure in this "dead air" region is about the same as the pressure would be in the station wagon if the rear window was partially open. But a few more feet behind these vehicles the free stream air would be moving in, the local air situation would be mixing things up, and the atmosphere would be returning to a normal situation. and to add: was not the rear door cracked (partially open) upon tackoff from SEA, as per Cooper's request. Stairs not out/down but rear door cracked. ? Once the rear door is opened (fully) then what happens to the pressure inside the cabin? Are we correct in assuming the area immediately behind the aircraft is a low pressure area - lower than inside the cabin?

Why does this have to be explained as though it were something evil? beats me - Farflung = Rumpelstiltskin at 20 atmospheres?

No problem. If you dont know about "spirit channeling" then you havent missed anything. Better I had never brought up.

Ask 377? Ask Hominid? How would I know. Im not 377 or Hominid? Ask Blevinaide. Since when am I responsible for what other people say and do but fail to explain? Ask them? But 377 did mention the Yahoo Group here, where he and Hominid have been posting for weeks. Ask 377? Ask Hominid? Ask Sluggo? I merely replied to a Hominid geek in geek terms. You invented the rest. Your problem with perfection is your own. Get a channeled reading from Vicky or JT?

Still waiting for your explanation of the pressure "bump". I am speaking about pressure differentials - not swinging ladders and doors and refrigerator folk art. Blevinaide is in desparate need for the explanation so he can schlep to physics and astrology with one giant swoop of his broomstick? Before he crashes the Aamanda Knox party! Farflung's treatise on pressure-for-comfort in airplanes and blood boiling at 50,000 ft was useless. Finish what you and Hominid started in the Yahoo group? Otherwise, what did you bring Hominid here for?