georger

Cooper could have died and somebody else could have buried it. -If- the money was buried other than by nature. I canvased a number of people today on the issue of whether the FBI list of Cooper serial numbers reflects the same ordering of serial numbers that was on the bank's original microfiche, and then in the actual bundles given to the FBI for Cooper. The short answer is 'nobody knows', and a number of people have raised the issue before. The SeaFirst Bank of Seattle did all of the preparation and microfiching and recording of the money and handed it off to an FBI Agent who then took it to Al Lee at the Airport. Neither the FBI or Al Lee (or anyone else) tampered with the money and it was delivered directly to Cooper just as received from the bank. Moreover, the original bank microfiche is lost. Nobody knows if the FBI was given a copy of the bank microfiche or a separate prepared list of serial numbers from the bank, or pecisely 'what' the basis for the FBI's published list of serial numbers is. I talked to Tom Kaye about this today. Tom says he and Carol raised this issue with Larry, but Larry couldn't locate anything to resolve the question. Tom also noted that the bank's original microfiche is lost, according to Ckret. Tom may come here and address this issue when he gets a chance. Everyone canvassed agrees on one point: the Ingrams washed and separated the found money. Thus the iternal ordering in the stack of money the Ingrams found was lost. One person canvased today said the following, quote: "As for the serial numbers being assigned to particular bundles, I'm unaware of that. (Only the bank and the FBI would know) But, since the approximate number of bills per bundle were the same as given to the hijacker, namely about $2000 each we were told, as well as that found at Tina's, it seems partially logical that the hijacker didn't rearrange the order of the bills in each bundle if he survived and returned to bury, or even if he died. That's my opinion. If we had exact knowledge of the arrranged order of bills in each bundle from time of delivery to SeaTac airport, and had exact knowledge of arranged order of bills as bundled and discovered at Tina's, then we would know whether the bills were "doctored," and therefore intentionally buried. But we don't know this. I do know this, however: Brian Ingram told me that all bill bundles were taken to his home and his parents seperated the bills using liquid dish detergent. These bills were seperated at the Ingram home before they were deleivered to the Portland FO. Therefore, it is certain that the true bill order could never be established from the Tina Bar find." Hopefully more will follow - (This post was edited by georger on Aug 28, 2013, 9:51 PM)

I haven't seen a list of ingram serial numbers anywhere. It would be nice for Brian ingram to publish the serial numbers he has. I imagine he has enough of the 300 serial numbers to possibly develop a very good pattern of how the bills were sorted. Sometimes I wonder how many of the Tena bar serial numbers are legible. In some pictures the bills seem completely black (looks like a black sheet of paper) from exposure to the enviroment. I developed my Tena Bar SN list from pictures of Tena Bar money found on the net. Currently I'm up to 20 serial numbers. I have finally found two serial numbers from the same bundle. If I can find many more serial numbers and they continue to cluster genernally within just a few bundles then I think we can say for certain the money was generally bundled in a alpha-numeric order (as found on micofiche) when cooper got the bundles. see your PM. This is very thought provoking. Good work!

***Georger wrote.....Heve you got the entire serial number list ... by bundles? Who's list is it and where did you get such a list if you have . The list was printed in Alpha-Numeric order in various Newspapers in 1976 including the Portland Journal. The list printed in the newspapers is at the FBI site under DB Cooper vault and is available to the public. Each page printed in the Newspaper had 300 serial numbers or 3 bundles of 2000 dollars. Starting from the beginning you can divide each page into 3 bundles. For example.....if the Tena Bar serial number is found on page 21 and is within the first 100 serial numbers......3 X 20 pages + 1 bundle = Bundle 61. Is a complete list of the of the Ingram serial numbers there too? These published lists may not reflect the bundles that were assembled and given to Cooper. Only the FBI would know and they may not even know or care!

I went back and read the Ckret comment again and your right. I'm up to 17 serial numbers and a odd pattern has developed. My take from Gray book is the bank stored the bills in $2000 bundles with paper wraps. It would seem logical to presume the bank bundled the bills in Alpha-Numeric order as listed on the microfiche. Afterall this money was set aside for an occassion like a hijacking. Having said that.....the 17 serial numbers I have come across are found in 17 different bundles, if they were once arrange alpha-numerically like I think. 17 different serial numbers from 17 different bundles out of 100 bundles. It appears the bank unwrapped all the bills, then shuffled and mixed all of them as much as they could, then put rubberbands on them. Tena bar money distribution chart attached. Heve you got the entire serial number list ... by bundles? Who's list is it and where did you get such a list if you have ..

Does ANYONE have knowledge of the copying equipment in 1971. NO WAY could they have copied all of those bills after the demand was made for 20's and 200K. There was over 200K sitting there waiting for something just like this to happen. In fact it was just a little over 200K sitting in that vault - wonder if Cooper knew this? Well, it makes sense - at least to me. The bank did not copy or repack those bills - time was important. The money WAS there for just such and event! All the authorities had to do was go get it after one of 2 bank clerks fumbled over the unlocking of the safe For yrs I have read this stuff about the money being copied after Cooper made his demands knowing it just was NOT possible in 1971 for such a machine to be available at the location of the money. There was more than 200k on hand - all they had to do was check the numbers of the remaining monies to compile the numbers on the SKYJACK bills.. I would have to go back and look this up, but what I remember from several accounts is that bills were on ready and all they had to do was copy them. One account was that the bank had $240000 set aside, and they got 200,000, but I don't remember where that came from. So might be myth. ANYWAY.... it's not like they had to copy them one at a time. 1970s was in the day of keypunch and machines that could copy a lot of cards at one go. I know that we have a lot more technology now, but it's not like they were having to write down the numbers down with quill and sheep's blood, for crying out loud.

The randomization, because they were in a hurry, does not make sense. Hurried bankers know how to bundle money properly. So prove your claim. Nobody said hurry was the sole cause. Your contention that he Ingram find represents bills from at least 17 previously packed and recorded bundles ... requires proof! If what you are saying is true that would be a BIG revelation ... as you very well know.

I went back and read the Ckret comment again and your right. I'm up to 18 serial numbers and a odd pattern has developed. My take from Gray book is the bank stored the bills in $2000 bundles with paper wraps. It would seem logical to presume the bank bundled the bills in Alpha-Numeric order as listed on the microfiche. Afterall this money was set aside for an occassion like a hijacking. Having said that.....the 18 serial numbers I have come across are found in 18 different bundles, if they were once arrange alpha-numerically like I think. 18 different serial numbers from 18 different bundles out of 100 bundles. It appears they unwrapped all the bills then shuffled and mixed all of them as much as they could, then put rubberbands on them. It would be just as likely, however, that the numbers on the list were sorted later by one of those FBI secretaries that now wishes he/she'd never bitched about having to redact all day.

I went back and read the Ckret comment again and your right. I'm up to 17 serial numbers and a odd pattern has developed. My take from Gray book is the bank stored the bills in $2000 bundles with paper wraps. It would seem logical to presume the bank bundled the bills in Alpha-Numeric order as listed on the microfiche. Afterall this money was set aside for an occassion like a hijacking. Having said that.....the 17 serial numbers I have come across are found in 17 different bundles, if they were once arrange alpha-numerically like I think. 17 different serial numbers from 17 different bundles out of 100 bundles. It appears the bank unwrapped all the bills, then shuffled and mixed all of them as much as they could, then put rubberbands on them. Tena bar money distribution chart attached. If you can find proof it might be interesting. Your chance of finding proof is zero. The bank did not unwrap all bundles to mix them up ... the bundes were unwrapped to photo copy each bill. No way of knowing if there was an order implicit. Ckret did make a point of saying each bundle contained randoms serial numbers. Again he spoke with bank people still alive. That he had to talk to bank people implies there are no FBI records, he found. Lets say you distribution is correct. That would mean the Ingram find represents bills from 17 or more separate bundles! That would imply someone resorted through all of the money and made new bundles! That would imply the new resorted bundles were lost or planted later. Do I have your chain of logic correct?

They don't make rubberbands like they use to. ;) The bundles were randomized per Ckret. Did the FBI or whoever Randomize the money within the bundles make a list of the Randomized money Serial number makeup within each bundle? No, no, and no (for the millionth time). Its been said before: they were in a rush. Rush means "hurry", means "late and running out of time to get the money to the airport to meet Cooper's demand..". They means "bank people. Ckret talked to the person who put the money into bundles with rubber bands. His name is _______________ consult with Tom Kaye, Jerry Thomas, RobertMBlevins, or Jo Weber, or CopTime33Warp22@ Pluto.com

Well that should clear up the fact (if anyone has doubts) that Dan Cooper didn't write his name on the ticket. Now we have the problem of.... The 3 Bundle Enigma. G states: Three bundles seems to be a Psychological Hurdle, brought on by people looking for Jesus in the Toast while traveling in the desert on 3 camels! There is no cosmological or real-world significance about 2.67 bundles, supposed, outside of the fact it was the largest single group of money found on Tina Bar in 1980. It quite obviously was a remnant after nine years of the money being in nature. No coping required!

Hey, Georger I am NOT part of that equation. You incorportated me by stating anything about the childhood photo or BuDop! Leave JO out of the equation.

Read Ckret posts. These are two different ocassions. The first when the money bag was brought in, the second when Cooper was served the drink. You can partially parse this out in time using the Transcript. The stews had already refused the acceptance of money from the bag ... now they refuse his change from the drink exchange where he paid with a $20 ... 'sorry we can't take tips'. Then Flo was allowed to leave. I don't know where "three bundles" keeps coming from!? There is no record as far as I know about how much money was offered from the bag. So let me set a NEW number. 20 bundels! So Cooper seemed generous and wanted to give tips. I wonder if Cooper was a bartender or server. The clip-on tie could also have been part of a uniform worn by a bartender/server. If you work in the service industry and rely on tips, service personnel seem to be more generous when tipping others. Food Service Worker or Bar Tender were Himmelsbach's first conjecture about Cooper. I think the myth makers are winning me over due to relentless pressure! Cooper offered Tina $5800.00 or .9667% of THREE BUNDLES when offering her a tip or money from the bag, or a gratuity, or in advance payment of . . . Tina's childhood photo from her photo album at buDop ... and those are the SAME THREE BUNDLES DUANE THREW INTO THE RIVER IN A PAPER SACK THAT INGRAM FOUND ON TINE/TENA/TJNA BAR. I agree! It's an "interesting" quetion now settled. There it is - the truth at last. I was wrong all along. The sign should be changed to reflect TRUTH. Three Bundles Bar. No further consideratin of the money at Three Bundles Sandbar need be made. Case closed.

Read Ckret posts. These are two different ocassions. The first when the money bag was brought in, the second when Cooper was served the drink. You can partially parse this out in time using the Transcript. The stews had already refused the acceptance of money from the bag ... now they refuse his change from the drink exchange where he paid with a $20 ... 'sorry we can't take tips'. Then Flo was allowed to leave. I don't know where "three bundles" keeps coming from!? There is no record as far as I know about how much money was offered from the bag. So let me set a NEW number. 20 bundels! Three bundles comes from Ingram! The Ingram find wasn't on the plane and wasn't offered to Tina & Flo! The Ingram and Tina Bar were NOT ON THE PLANE! If Tom says "it's an interesting question", then "green eggs and ham" is also an interesting question! People keep trying to link "3 bundles" (in Cooper pocket) with Tina Bar... with money offered on the plane (which stews reject so Cooper sticks the money in his coat pocket. Its invention and speculation. It's an "interesting question" like "was Nyrop in his office on the Moon?" is an interesting question. It's a terminal failure of Mr. Kaye - he just doesn't have the guts to say "NO!". Do cows fly over the Moon? Hell yes! "Its an interesting question". Really ??? Choices based on the myth: he offered them 3 bundles: (a) Cooper's body was on Tina Bar. (b) Cooper coat was on Tina Bar. (c) Money came out Cooper pockets during drop and wound up on Tina Bar. (d) Tina Bar will only take 3 bundles at a time, brought up by the tide. and not one cent more. The tide is weak.

So his daughter's name was "May". That clears that up.

Also finding some Tenas on 1930 census in Vancouver, Clark County, WA. One with given name of head of household that looks like "Tell". 33 yo - birthplace Switzerland, wife, 25 named Frances, 2 daughters, 7 and 8: Maybelle, and Yvonne. Still looking, but "Tena" is looking like the correct spelling and origin. And from here...http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/22663007/ It's 1928, the Chehalis Bee-Nuggett reports this.... It's OCR text, so not sure about the numbers involved.... "Buys 580 Acre Dairy Ranch. Sale of a 58O-acre dairy ranch on the Columbia near Vancouver is reported at a price of ?50,000. The purchaser is a man named Tell Tena and he has placed his herd of 85 dairy cattle on the place and will probably add others." Maybe a drug company will name it CooperMax ? You may be correct Georger. If they buy the land, I'm sure they can name it whatever they please.

Also finding some Tenas on 1930 census in Vancouver, Clark County, WA. One with given name of head of household that looks like "Tell". 33 yo - birthplace Switzerland, wife, 25 named Frances, 2 daughters, 7 and 8: Maybelle, and Yvonne. Still looking, but "Tena" is looking like the correct spelling and origin. And from here...http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/22663007/ It's 1928, the Chehalis Bee-Nuggett reports this.... It's OCR text, so not sure about the numbers involved.... "Buys 580 Acre Dairy Ranch. Sale of a 58O-acre dairy ranch on the Columbia near Vancouver is reported at a price of ?50,000. The purchaser is a man named Tell Tena and he has placed his herd of 85 dairy cattle on the place and will probably add others." Maybe a drug company will name it CooperMax ?

According to Georger on Feb. 11, 2011...Post # 22130 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4058497;search_string=tina%20tena;guest=114435818#4058436 "This TENA stuff may have been started when the Seattle PI used the name TENA on their map. A lot of people saw that and used TENA thereafter." The map shows "Tena Bar" in the wrong place, east of Vancouver Some say there is actually a Tena Bar at this location, east of Vancouver. Seattle PI map attached Good find. I hope I wont get any more heat from the experts about Tina vs Tena!

that could be the start of the misdirection??? why would they put a sign on the property incorrect? G says: I will post it again. Here is what the property looked like when Del Tina transferred ownership to Rich. Fazio Sr. about 1952. Thomas is incorrect. The property is not named after Del Tina's daughter, whose name was Evangeline Tina ... not Tina Tina! Or Tena or Dena or Sacagawea either.

I try to use quotes for things other have said for which there is a record ... ' ...' for paraphasing I am paraphrasing ... and there rest is mine thoughts ? Sigh... This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Look at the way it's formatted. You're adding in an extra "reply" tag that is screwing up the formatting and making it appear as if you're ONLY quoting and not actually replying at all. It used to be all you did was reply to a post and that was all there was to it. Replies formatted automatically. That vanished I guess. Now I have to add /reply/ in brackets or my reply merges in with the other person's post. Amazon chimed in several weeks ago and said hit Enter bar twice? Then type reply ? If replies are not taken care of automatically as it used to be I confess I dont know how to do it since the last changes to this thread format ... How am I supposed to be doing it? (This time I hit Enter tiwce as Amazon said, then typed my reply and that seems to have worked?) I dont use IE.

Quote I try to use quotes for things other have said for which there is a record ... ' ...' for paraphasing I am paraphrasing ... and there rest is mine thoughts ?

I mentioned this a while back, but nobody took a bite. I was also wondering if she was showing guilt when she got off the plane instead of being scared from the ordeal. where was Tina living from 71-1980?Quote No this happened early - he offered the money to BOTH Tina and Flo. Flo stood there, Tina made the quip ' we dont take tips'.

Every statistical analysis that I could find in the literature that had any chance of producing meaningful information has already been applied. Some progress has been made using a statistical approach, but there does not seem to be any chance for further progress that way. Basically, determining some segments of a possible series of algorithms seems to be the only route to a solution. I am absolutely sure that a single algorithm will not solve the problem. There are several short sets of data. They are, or will be found to be (I'm sure), statistically independent but, nevertheless, related. Don't ask me to explain that further at this point. javascript: addTag('sly') But to repeat, algorithms seem to be the only possible way of making further progress. I would prefer that any further discussion of this be both off DZ.com and privately. Also, I won't have time to pursue this matter further until about mid-September. Robert99Quote ok... send me a PM and give more any further detail you can. I will throw it in Uri's lap and see what he says ... but he's very familiar with fractal probability in a number of contexts, for example. Have you talked to Meyer about this?

Quote Here is a usgs photo from 1952. The Fazio property didnt even exist as it did in 1971-80! This photo and others 1952-1980 show the volatile nature of this area due to erosion. Note the whole area east of Catapillar island and behind the Fazxio's.

I tried pretty hard to find proof of the claimed tideline debris field of currency shards, but struck out, Also found no support for claims that shards were found buried several feet down. 377 Quote The Fazio's were the only ones to bring up a tidal deposit idea. They claimed 'the money came up with the last tide'. How they would know that is beyond me. How they would know it wasn't already there before the last tide is beyond me. Palmer rejected the Fazio's argument, and so did most of the agents there.

I don't know about the Bag but I did find the following article interesting. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QP4yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZYMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6378,3379551&dq=db+cooper&hl=en I read an old article from the time when the money was found on Feb. 13, 1980. The FBI agent said.. ***"They're very small pieces about the size of a nickel," said FBI agent Tom Nicodemus. He said some of the pieces of money were as deep as three feet beneath the surface." "It indicates to us there's been a lot of sand shift there and the money has been for some time." Nicodemus said. I guess those pieces three feet below were once attached to the three bundles. I wonder how far Horizontally away were the little pieces of money from the main bundle stacks Maybe that is why the FBI dug trenches looking deeper. The trenches seem to be only dug near the money found. I wonder if more tiny pieces of bills could still be found.Quote The issue of fragments is hotly debated. Different agents give different accounts. One lead agent won't talk about it! Tom Kaye and Carol say there is no mention of fragments in the files and the only fragments they found at Seattle was 'a little dust and a few tiny pieces in a bag', as it were! There is a persistent rumor part of a briefcase (Cooper's brief case?) was found during the excavation, but nobody will confirm that even though the rumor has been traced back to one of the agents on the scene during the excavation. There is just nothing solid in documentation of anything. Now Galen Cook says he has witnesses who found bills on Tina Bar prior to Ingram's find, in December of 1979 I think.