snowmman

from the Strohlein page. It's interesting to track where they trained. There were many training jumps. (4 night HALO). As 377 has always said: people like to talk about what the cutting edge is. You could imagine a lot of support personnel with knowledge of the activities. So lots of people must have known about this stuff at the time. "The men chosen for these teams were put through refresher training on Okinawa; they practiced for an additional month at Long Thanh, South Vietnam. This in-country training included 10 jumps from Huey helicopters and C-130s, 4 night HALO jumps and a final exercise in War Zone D, north east of Saigon." (edit) "Blackbird" was evidently the name given to the their C-130. So not the sr71, and not a heli. "At 0100 hours on this - their third - attempt, the team boarded the Blackbird, a C-130 specifically set up for this mission, for the 2 hour flight to their mission destination."

first person detail on vietnam halo http://www.skydivewithjohn.com/documents/HistoryofHALOOperations.pdf good tech detail on gear (page 9) not very hi tech. (modified t-10s?) names etc. (page 17-18) c-130e (page 15) whole article is good. helis were used in training, minimally: "Taken to Long Thanh for two weeks of training, the augmented team began parachuting from helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft. Two dozen practice jumps later, they were able to exit a C-130E at 25,000 feet with 110 pounds of equipment and land within 50 meters of each other." funny re money bag: "But Murphy’s Law still intervened: as Mark Gentry left the plane his rucksack ripped loose, causing him to spin away from the rest of the team." reference to Sgt. Madison Strohlein: mia, didn't extract. http://www.taskforceomegainc.org/S176.htm This page mentions C-130

okay here's the frequency I'm on. You know we post and post and post, and it's actually kind of a shock to the system when we meet someone in person. I buried all the cannon, hid the AKs, turned off the electric fences, got the crocs out of the moat, fed the dogs, and 377 stopped by the fort for an hour visit. He apparently made it back alive, I think only because he was smart enough to leave before it got dark. He really is a great guy. There's only the faintest whiff of a lawyer off him. We only had a short visit, and 377 is as much as an enigma to me as before. BUT: I got this desire to embarass the hell out of him and get him hooked up. Maybe it's really me thinking about myself..but here goes: 377 needs some big jump. You know what I mean? He needs 3, or 20, guys to jabber at him about what they're all going to do that all sounds sane when they're in the bar together going over the details, but when they all go home alone, they sit in bed thinking "is this nuts? it seems doable. But people will think we're nuts. Maybe it is nuts and we just can't tell". well not that bad, but you know what I mean? It's gotta have gear, some balls, some skill, some art. .... I wanna see 377 get out there closer to the edge. Sure he's been jumping forever. All you guys have. But he's been too comfortable for too long (maybe that's a good thing when the other side of the coin is bouncing!). Hey the nice thing about being older is that it's not so bad if you go in? had a good life so far? So who the hell is out there in Northern California? You gotta have some mad skillz cuz 377 ain't no slouch...If you're nuts you gotta be able to hide it enough to be slightly presentable.. I want to hear about some cool big jump with 377 in it. 377 may think he's got a plan, but I don't think so. He needs to get all swept up in some crazy big jump plan. Done by the end of summer. So you got some planning time. So talk about that..377's big jump.

sluggo said: "It may be lame, but the fact is, many people have left this thread because of you. " Hi Sluggo. I looked at your list. Thanks for posting it. I always said I was fine with being voted off the island. Assuming you accurately tallied the vote, I'll accept it. Thanks. (edit) whoa. just read georger's edited post above. strong stuff!

Thats a myth. It all depends on how the (tests) are being conducted and what the database and baselines are. Even a paranoid schizophrenic can be tested ... right in the middle of a delusional episode. Jo, for example, would never escape. Georger, isn't that pretty out of line, trying to pretend you're qualified to give a mental diagnosis, and giving one? looking at wikipedia, I don't think Jo displays the symptoms? "According to the revised fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR), to be diagnosed with schizophrenia, three diagnostic criteria must be met.[4] 1. Characteristic symptoms: Two or more of the following, each present for much of the time during a one-month period (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment). * Delusions * Hallucinations * Disorganized speech, which is a manifestation of formal thought disorder * Grossly disorganized behavior (e.g. dressing inappropriately, crying frequently) or catatonic behavior * Negative symptoms—affective flattening (lack or decline in emotional response), alogia (lack or decline in speech), or avolition (lack or decline in motivation) If the delusions are judged to be bizarre, or hallucinations consist of hearing one voice participating in a running commentary of the patient's actions or of hearing two or more voices conversing with each other, only that symptom is required above. The speech disorganization criterion is only met if it is severe enough to substantially impair communication. 2. Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care, are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset. 3. Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least six months. This six-month period must include at least one month of symptoms (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment). Schizophrenia cannot be diagnosed if symptoms of mood disorder or pervasive developmental disorder are present, or the symptoms are the direct result of a general medical condition or a substance, such as abuse of a drug or medication."

heh..I just noticed that as I was clicking thru the pages at Google Books. I actually didn't know about this book when I was talking about uranium etc jokingly. Funny. I think people tie together the classic multiple consipiracy/suspicion/drama things all the time. Here's another weird coincidence..after I was posting that stuff, someone at the house got this book on uranium, for I don't know what reason (I think school) http://www.amazon.com/Uranium-Energy-Rock-Shaped-World/dp/0670020648/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238876495&sr=8-1 I didn't read it but it sounded good (just published 3/5/2009) SAGE kind of brings the nuclear story back in full circle. (soviet nuke bombers) Hey, maybe in my DBC book, I can say that the bomb description was a coverup. DBC actually had a crude nuclear device. And that's why they cut him so much slack. And he jumped with the nuclear device, which landed in the Columbia with him. And Himmelsbach has been in charge of the coverup ever since, because they were worried about lawsuits, and public fear, with an unfound nuke device still out there somewhere... Until one day, some weird guy on an internet forum puts it all together, and goes out with a shovel, and unearths the device. The meat of the story is what happens after that...

377 said: "Hey Snow, don't you think Jerry deserves an apology? Jerry is an experienced feet on the ground guy in a geographic area of interest." I would never apologize just to curry favor, to try to "get" something I might want. I am not this thread. If you guys want something from Jerry, then you have to curry your own favor. Don't put it on me, and say someone left because of me. That's lame. Do something yourself to make him stay if that's what you want. You and Orange1 and Mr Nuke should chat him up more.

Now there's a relatively current fiction book "Manner of Death" by Stephen White (who has written a bunch of fiction books) that incorporates DB Cooper, and is more successful. Published 1/1/2000 by Signet Amazon.com Sales Rank: #385,739 in Books The opening paragraph in the book is "Adrienne's tomatoes froze to death the same night that Arnie Dresser did." (page attached) I also attached page 192, where DB starts to get mentioned. (first mention is on page 134) You can see the mentions here http://www.google.com/books?id=JAdyYw9IJgYC&pg=PA192&dq=d.b.+cooper Here's reviews Amazon.com Review The spirit of D.B. Cooper--the legendary hijacking parachutist--hovers over Stephen White's latest book about Colorado psychologist Alan Gregory, and this jaunty ghost gives the outing even more stylish substance than usual. By adding elements of Cooper's crime and disappearance (with a large amount of cash) to a story of medical malpractice and resulting revenge, White--a practicing Colorado psychologist himself--pushes the envelope of what's real and what's fictional to the advantage of both. After attending the funeral of a former colleague from his days as an intern, Gregory is accosted (and has a tempting Mexican lunch spoiled) by a pair of edgy ex-FBI agents now working for a high-ticket private security firm. They believe that the colleague's "accidental" death on a hiking trip is really part of an attempt to wipe out everyone who was part of a particular team in a psychiatric unit at the University of Colorado's Health Services Center in Denver in 1982. As members of that team, Gregory--and his former lover, Sawyer Sackett--are among the few remaining survivors and the next likely targets. Overhearing this news causes a waitress to drop two platters of green chili burritos in a messy clatter. D.B. Cooper becomes an important part of the story as Gregory, his prosecutor wife, Lauren (whose multiple sclerosis leads to some unusual and important observations), their cop friend Sam Purdy, and the two ex-FBI agents zero in on possible suspects--one of whom has an abnormal fascination with the hijacker's life. White spends a tad too much time on Alan's past history with the mysterious Sawyer, but in general his narrative engine runs smoothly and powerfully toward its satisfying and largely unexpected conclusion. Other Gregory books include Critical Conditions, Harm's Way, Higher Authority, Private Practices, and Remote Control. From Publishers Weekly The invigorating twists and turns of practicing psychologist White's (Privileged Information) new Alan Gregory thriller drag readers over rugged Colorado terrain, past a gauntlet of eccentric characters spawned by the Rocky Mountain lifestyle, through the most intimate details of the protagonists' lives, leaving them gasping at the switchback ending of this chilling stalker novel. Attending the funeral of a former colleague, Boulder psychologist Alan learns from two quirky ex-FBI agents that this is the latest in a string of clueless murders targeting the entire group of students, supervisors and staff who shared Alan's clinical psychology residency some years earlier. Only Alan and his former lover, Dr. Sawyer Sackett, now survive, and they are undoubtedly next on the killer's hit list. Alan's wife, Lauren, a prosecuting attorney afflicted with multiple sclerosis, is threatened as well, but throws her considerable skills fully into the fray. Alan's friend on the Boulder police force, Detective Sam Purdy, provides police clout, FBI equalizing and protection for Lauren. The pros go after former patients, but Alan and Sawyer snoop best, tracing a lead involving legendary hijacker D.B. Cooper and some truly disturbed suspects. White conveys his love for Colorado and his profession while delivering an evaluation of the mental health industry. Martinet shrinks and caring analysts get equal billing, while both the promise and limitations of psychology are cleanly spelled out. A newly honed sense of humor adds zip to White's prose without detracting a mite from the menace and gore. Literary Guild, Doubleday Book Club and Mystery Guild selections.

We can get data for 377's theory on book sales. looking at amazon.com for books currently in print (used books not listed here) The sales rank is how many other books sold more than the title. Using an estimation from http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm which has a graph...We can estimate #books sold based on the ranking. You can read the page above, but it sounds like he's done reasonable estimating job. Basically, if your Amazon sales rank is below 1,000,000, you can estimate the sales at .1/week. i.e. 1 book sold every 10 weeks. This is confirmed by http://www.dogearpublishing.net/Newsletter_Amazon-Sales-Rankings.aspx who suggests that a sales ranking below 1,000,000 means about 1 book per month. D. B. Cooper - Portrait of an American Hijacker (Biography) (Paperback). Published 2/4/08 Amazon.com Sales Rank: #846,553 in Books The Legend of D B Cooper (Hardcover) by Pat Forman (Author), Ron Forman (Author) Published 8/19/08 Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,556,791 in Books (another listing thru lulu.com ebook) Amazon.com Sales Rank: #951,112 in Books D.B.: A Novel (Paperback) by Elwood Reid (Author) Published 7/12/05 Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,118,041 in Books UNDER SUSPICION: The Legend of D.B. Cooper (Paperback) by James Olszewski (Author) Published 11/21/08 Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,669,732 in Books The Pursuit of D.B. Cooper (1981) / Region 2 DVD PAL / Starring: Treat Williams, Kathryn Harrold, Robert Duvall Directed by: Roger Spottiswoode (1981) Amazon.com Sales Rank: #78,476 in Movies & TV (edit) strictly speaking we should average the ranks with a couple of samples..suggested methodology is "A general rule of thumb (first proposed by Morris Leventhal of FonerBooks) is to note your rank twice a week for four weeks, then divide by 8. This will show your "average" Amazon sales rank. " But by sampling multiple books, and seeing they are all similar, it's reasonable to guess that the sales volume doesn't change much, except maybe if the FBI beats the drums to get Cooper Media going again.

Jerry. I like Jo. I think you're an idiot. That simple. Get it?

Jerry: I still have a hard time understanding how you believe you have info that others don't have. What true sources are you talking about? And why do you care so much about Jo and polygraph tests and court and tapes and I don't know what else? How about threatening me with court more? Not fun? With regard to the shoe, we have these two descriptions: Tina "brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type" Flo "black shoes" Where did you get "alligator grain" from? And why are so confident about the shoe? Are you just paraphrasing Tina's description? (edit) I attached a pair of boots with a "pebble grain" finish. black.

from http://www.c141heaven.com/66/pic_66_0127.html "An omitted checklist item caused the spoilers to deploy to the 'Ground' position during takeoff roll. The aircraft became briefy airborne before crashing into the sea. Seven crewmembers were killed. A pilot in the outboard ACM seat and a loadmaster survived. The plane had flown from Yokota AB, Japan, to Cam Rahn Bay. After offloading cargo, the crew prepared for a night departure back to Yokota. During completion of the Before Takeoff Checklist, on taxi out, the copilot inadvertently left the automatic Spoiler Select Switch in the 'Autoland' position, instead of the 'Rejected Takeoff' (RTO) position. Un-noticed by the crew, between 34-60 Knots, the spoilers automatically deployed to the ground position. The crew noticed a reduced acceleration rate, but elected to continue the takeoff. The aircraft became airborne, accelerated poorly, began a shallow descent, and crashed into the sea just off the end of the runway. The Aircraft Commander had earned a Distinguished Flying Cross 18 months earlier, for safely landing a C-124, after one of the engines had fallen off! As a result of this accident, the Takeoff Warning system was wired to include the Spoiler Select Switch, and the auto spoilers were eventually disabled entirely."

this next url has a first person account of the C-141 that had an accident with an A-6 in Danang . There's a pretty dramatic photo there along with a longer description of what happened. As a weird coincidence, there was only one survivor, the loadmaster. "Tragically, five Air Force crewmembers died in the fire. Only the loadmaster escaped out the aft section of the plane." Both Marine crewmembers of the A-6 survived. http://www.c141heaven.com/65/65-9407/danang_tragedy.html "This aircraft was destroyed at Da Nang AB, Vietnam, on 23 March 1967. This C-141 was destroyed while taxiing in after landing. As it crossed the inner parallel runway it was struck by an aircraft on takeoff roll. The C-141 had just flown a nearly six-hour leg at night, to a GCA approach with weather of 700 feet and 2 miles visibility. After landing on the outer of two parallel runways, the crew turned off at mid-field and taxied toward the ramp. They were struck by a Marine A-6 taking off on the inner parallel runway. The C-141's cargo included acetylene tanks. The A-6 was loaded with sixteen 5OO# bombs. Both aircraft were destroyed in an intense fire. Five of the six C-141 crewmembers were killed. One loadmaster survived. Both Marine crewmembers escaped with major injuries. Poor radio equipment in the tower hampered communications between the aircraft. During the investigation, tower personnel stated that they had not cleared the C-141 to cross the inner active runway. Landing and taxi lights were not being used by either aircraft; both were displaying only navigation lights."

There are some great photos of the C-141's I mentioned at McChord. It hadn't sunk in that the C-141 had a T tail like the 727. I guess you want that with the side door. Here's the one that burned. (pic attached) http://www.c141heaven.com/65/pic_65_0281.html On 7 September, 1966, 65-0281 was the first C-141 destroyed. It blew up while simultaneous hazardous maintenance procedures were being performed. Three maintenance members were killed in an explosion of the Right Extended Range tank. The Wing at McChord had recently converted to the StarLifter. The first aircraft had arrived on 9 August 1966. This aircraft, 65-0281, was the third C-141 to be stationed at McChord, and had arrived on base just a week before, on 29 August, 1966. The maintenance teams had minimal practical experience with the new airplane. It was having multiple maintenance difficulties. The Right Extended Range Tank feel gage was erratic, and the AC "Power On" Light was inop. Two electricians were in the cockpit working on the "Power On" Light. A Maintenance Team Chief was also in the cockpit with three trainees. In addition, he was supervising a maintenance team on another aircraft. The Assistant Team Chief had started de-fueling the Right Extended Range Tank to prepare it for troubleshooting. The other fuel tanks were full. Two additional technicians arrived to work on the fuel gage before the de-fueling was complete. One of the electrical technicians connected testing equipment to the fuel tank but failed to ground it. The other technician plugged an extension cord into the external 115V AC receptacle of the APU. The live extension cord apparently came in contact with the case of the test equipment. Electricity flowed through the case, up the cables into the tank. Due to a short in the coaxial shielding a spark was created within the nearly empty tank. The right wing exploded. The Assistant Team Chief standing under the wing, and the technician on the wing were killed almost immediately. One of the technicians in the cockpit was badly burned while exiting the right troop door into a burning pool of JP-4. He died a few days later. The others on the aircraft received only minor injuries.

Picture attached. This is interesting, since C-141's were the first jet paratroopers jumped out of. (side door, as we discussed) Evidently they flew to Vietnam a lot? Wouldn't it be weird if Cooper really was a loadmaster on a C-141 at McChord, maybe late '60s? Also note three C-141 accidents with fatalities. http://www.mcchordairmuseum.org/REV%20B%20OUR%20HISTORY%20%20MAF%20BASE%201950-1970.htm On August 5, 1966, a new era began for the 62nd, and McChord AFB, when the first Lockheed C-141A StarLifter s/n 65-000277 piloted by then 8th Military Airlift Squadron Commander Lt Col. George Demmon arrived to McChord from the Lockheed factory in Georgia. On August 9, Miss Washington 1966 Sandra Marth assisted by Lt Col. George Demmon christen the Wings new C-141A as the "Tacoma Starlifter" during the base's official acceptance ceremony. Tragically on the morning of September 7 of that year the Wing suffered its first C-141 loss when one of their four assigned StarLifters under routine maintenance exploded and burned on the McChord ramp killing two injuring four. The aircraft 65-000281 was the second aircraft assigned to the Base. As C-141's arrived they were quickly pressed into service, flying troops and supplies into action in Southeast Asia unfortunately 62d MAW C-141's were involved in two fatal accidents. On March 22, 1967 C-141A 65-9407 was lost after a collision with a A-6 Intruder on the runway at Da Nang, Vietnam, 5 of the six crewmembers were lost. On April 12, 1967 a second C-141A (s/n 66-0127) was destroyed with its crew during takeoff Cam Ranh Bay, Republic of Vietnam.

The 25th Air Division included McChord SAGE. picture is 1966 at Mt. Hebo. You can see the tunnels that led out ot the parking lot that were in the prior picture of Mt Hebo from then, that I posted. I suppose to protect against rain/wind/snow? From L to R - Lt Col Walter O. Reil (689th Radar Squadron Commander), Major General Elder (Commander 25th Air Division), 1st Lt Steve Weatherly (Radar Maintenance Officer). Foggy days were frequent on top of Mt Hebo. from http://trees.ancestry.com/view/military.aspx?tid=4992037&pid=-1513505021&gss=seotrees (edit) Elder was no long Commander by 5 March 1966. It sounds like it would have been Major General Archie M. Burke that was Commander on 11/24/71 from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/25th-Air-Division Here's the history of Commanders around 1971 Major General William E. Elder, 1 June 1964; Brigadier General John A. Rouse, 5 March 1966; Colonel Morris E. Petty, 1 May 1969; Major General Archie M. Burke, 14 November 1969; Major General Jack K. Gamble, 13 March 1972;

funny!

377: this might explain how a view of Cooper jumping, might not have been extractable from stored tapes from SAGE. But the planes flight track would have been (if they stored to tape..note the two minute drum storage limit) http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-ibm-sage.html From Les Earnest replying to a question about "Popular [DD] Cooper Myths Debunked" - Feb 2007 SAGE computers did record radar data on magnetic drums but kept only about two minutes worth at any given time and discarded old hits as new data came in. These data were used by the computer to automatically track aircraft and those tracks often were recorded on magnetic tape. However this process would not have "seen" a diverging radar blip unless the radar data was being displayed (it usually wasn't) and it was noticed by the Intercept Director following that flight. -Les Earnest, who designed the Intercept Director's console layout

Exactly. It's pretty funny, that 38 years later, Himmelsbach could lead a sewing club out to the woods and proclaim that 305 was flying "manually" and off of V-23, which investigators didn't realize because there was no radar covering it that night. And that Cooper jumped, deployed, landed and crawled to the Washougal where he died. Then the money travelled downstream, and 3 bundles got deposited at Tena Bar. And that this theory will be tested, by throwing individual bundles of money into the Washougal, in March 2009. I don't know why people are laughing. This is science.

I didnt say that at all. It is pretty obvious WE dont know who knew! No, we do know. Himmelsbach said there was no radar covering on the plane. We got this from Jerry. So the question is: Why did SAGE DC turn off their radar that night? Was it part of the planned coverup? Everything points to Jo being correct. The coverup that night (technology available for tracking. It was disabled) The coverup afterwards. Makes sense.

georger said "I think this is all hyperbolic speculation on Snow's part, then 377's, etal. " ah okay. So no one knew where 305 flew that night, then. We can agree on that?

This is a SID display from the New England area. Can see more clearly what would be on the Situation Display. (pic attached) http://ed-thelen.org/sage.html there are selectable displays. Note that it includes geographical boundaries like I was speculating. "Fig. 7. Situation Display of New England coastline and adjacent installations. A 19" Charactron (Developed by Hughes Products Co.) cathode-ray-tube displays geographically oriented data covering the whole or part of the sector (Figure 7). On this air situation display scope, the operator can view different categories of tracks or radar data, geographical boundaries, predicted interception points, or special displays generated by the computer to assist his decision. Every two and one half seconds, the computer generates about two hundred different types of displays requiring up to 20,000 characters, 18,000 points and 5,000 lines. Some of these are always present on an operator's situation display. Others he may select. Some he may request the computer to prepare especially for his viewing. Finally, the computer can force very high priority displays for his attention. "

I was thinking both the island outline and the state or sector outlines are artificially produced, say by the computer...i.e. the radar isn't hitting the island outline. the outline of the island seems similar to the state/sector outlines, to me?? (edit) notice the one line extends out into the ocean. That's why I'm thinking some kind of sector line that roughly corresponds to OR/WA (edit) if you click on the image to enlarge it, I think you can even see faint lines in the middle radar image that outline areas within the state?? or something.

I put the two radar screens with a current google map on the same image, so it's easy to compare. the google map has a slightly different projection, so the big island off vancouver looks different, size wise. But I think you can make out that island, seattle, WA. They don't seem to outline OR, although I'm not sure if the outlines match WA exactly. see what you think. (attached) I think there's a cluster of hits around Yakima, for instance. One by Spokane too? (edit) 377: you can see how the weather is obscuring a bit of the screen. I wonder if anything was obscured on 11/24/71?

"snowmman, get your head out of your ass." heh. Yes, I can see it's clear to everyone else what it all means. Sticking my head back up my ass.