snowmman

Bruce said "I had a wonderful chat with Al Fazio and his younger brother Richard, who by the way was an electronics guy for the USAF in NPK, Thailand, 68-69, monitoring hi-tech surveillance stuff dropped upon the Ho Chi Minh Trail." That's really fucking weird because 377 introduced a conversation about that stuff a while back..the stuff disguised as turds by way of example. I think 377 said he actually has a device of some kind.

You know, we talk about Jerry doing legwork, but Bruce is the ONLY guy here that's calling folks, reporting information, doing stuff other than scanning the web. Georger does some stuff. He's reported one or two things that must have come from the FBI. But that's not on-the-ground stuff. Tom has reported nothing. Sluggo was good at collating info for his web site. So: Bruce is definitely the best investigator. Agreed?

hey... Sluggo gave ME the exclusive on apologies here! 377 Sorry. I'll apologize for Sluggo. Hey, that reminds me: How come whenever Carr/Edge West/Tom do something weird/offensive/odd, the kneejerk reaction is to apologize for them since of course their motives are always pure, and their goals noble, but when it comes to me, I'm just an asshole. Oh, I forgot, I did say I was an asshole. Sorry. I apologize. Good Night Frau Blucher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHb7DJDCptA

South Africa: Boring. Everything is always about South Africa. It's like saying you know someone in Hoboken. Slovenia is where it's at.

You're correct georger. I apologize. I was too young in 1980, so I wouldn't remember. I did not develop the propeller theory. It was developed in 1980. (edit) How come Sluggo's list didn't include Orange1? Is it better to be on the list or off the list? On the bus or under the bus?

good job, sluggo! Note this is really just another MMORPG with occasional rude interruptions of reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game

Jo propositioned "maybe a former government worker with an attorney degree and with access to government record" Sounds like a proposition to commit a crime. I thought there are laws covering access to government records. Unless you're talking about public records. Maybe a librarian is what you need? Or wait a second, are there any laws in the US anymore? It's like if I don't keep my eye on the ball, it all changes overnight!

I was wondering if I'm a "clear and present danger". I looked on wikipedia, but I still can't figure it out. How does one know? Do you not know until "Bad Boys" song plays and they drag you out with no shirt on? (edit) Oh: and if they Taser you, can you fire a Taser back in self-defense? Or is self-defense not allowed in that case. I mean if they're trying to kill you (and people do die) I would think you're allowed to try to stop that. No? or Yes? Is there a bullet-proof vest equivalent for Tasers? What can you wear to protect yourself against Tasers? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger "Clear and present danger is a term used by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. in the unanimous opinion for the case Schenck v. United States,[1] concerning the ability of the government to regulate speech against the draft during World War I: “ The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. When a nation is at war, many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight, and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right. ” Following Schenck v. United States, "clear and present danger" became both a public metaphor for First Amendment speech[2][3] and a standard test in cases before the Court where a United States law limits a citizen's First Amendment rights; the law is deemed to be constitutional if it can be shown that the language it prohibits poses a "clear and present danger". However, the "clear and present danger" criterion of the Schenck decision was later modified by Brandenburg v. Ohio,[4] and the test refined to determining whether the speech would provoke an imminent lawless action. The vast majority of legal scholars have concluded that in writing the Schenck opinion Justice Holmes never meant to replace the "bad tendency" test which had been established in the 1868 English case R. v. Hicklin and incorporated into American jurisprudence in the 1904 Supreme Court case U.S. ex rel. Turner v. Williams. This is demonstrated by the use of the word "tendency" in Schenck itself, a paragraph in Schenck explaining that the success of speech in causing the actual harm was not a prerequisite for conviction, and use of the bad-tendency test in the simultaneous Frohwerk v. United States and Debs v. United States decisions (both of which cite Schenck without using the words "clear and present danger"). However, a subsequent essay by Zechariah Chafee entitled “Freedom of Speech in War Time” argued despite context that Holmes had intended to substitute clear and present danger for the bad-tendency standard a more protective standard of free speech.[5] Bad tendency was a far more ambiguous standard where speech could be punished even in the absence of identifiable danger, and as such was strongly opposed by the fledgling ACLU and other libertarians of the time. Having read Chafee's article, Holmes decided to retroactively reinterpret what he had meant by "clear and present danger" and accepted Chafee's characterization of the new test in his dissent in Abrams v. United States just six months after Schenck,[6] perhaps the only time in history where a single legal scholar changed the course of jurisprudence. Significantly unlike Abrams, the cases of Schenck, Frohwerk, and Debs had all produced unanimous decisions. Justice Brandeis soon began citing the "clear and present danger" test in his concurrences, but the new standard was not accepted by the full court until its official adoption in Brandenburg v. Ohio fifty years later."

377 said: "Conservative patriot Jo sounds like she is reversing course and expressing complete disgust " remember when I said I had a personal goal of "turning" Jerry. That's the real benchmark :) I work thru the list, seeing what gets them excited first -we're smarter second -we have God on our side third -we have nukes! fourth -The propeller theory is ours!

Sluggo said: "...have their brains run down into their shoes when discussing “the NORJAK community" and its members" I thought the problem was different. I thought the issue was, for instance, in my case, that I don't give a damn about anyone else, and others thought that was inappropriate behavior. Am I misunderstanding? The way stuff like that gets resolved, usually, is war, etc. Are you arguing for diplomatic solutions? (edit) As long as we're all confessing, I'll own up. The propeller theory came from me. They needed a last minute "new" theory, and I said I could give them one if they paid up. They paid up. They got a theory. Everyone was happy.

Not true. Your ego and your raised leg were nowhere in sight. But thanks! for your contributions to Cooperphaelia. ?? WTF? Then someone is lying to me. I'm not sure who is lying, you or someone else. No matter, I'll get to the bottom of it. I do have a check for consult fees, so I assumed I was working on the project. Maybe I wasn't. Did anyone else get a check?

Problem: The blog I quoted, that named the "Key Production Assistant", had said Cooper landed in the Columbia directly. I was surprised the movie didn't square with what the Jeff Darnell had blogged for Nat Geo, just 2 days before the broadcast. here's the blog entry, posted July 25,2009 http://ngccommunity.nationalgeographic.com/ngcblogs/inside-ngc/2009/07/the-infamous-db-cooper.html Currently the FBI has the help of a team of scientists who are going through the evidence in detail- recalculating the drop zone, analyzing the money. They are finding that the drop zone may have very well been directly over the Columbia River, D. B. Cooper disappeared, yes, he may have been washed out to sea. Although I can't tell, I think Jeff Darnell posted text from Katie Greenfield, Key Production Assistant for Edge West Production Company. Hmm. We need a covert op with Katie. I don't have her picture, so someone will have to take their chances. Obviously she would be most impressed with a jumper. Let's go with male to start with. Who's going in?

I would like to remind everything that I was involved in the Nat Geo production, and the script was dictated by Larry Carr, and represents the best information from the FBI and the Citizen's Investigative Group. Now can we ignore all the distractions and get down to some real work? Where are we on propellers, 1971 era? (edit) I would note that I had originally proposed the idea that the money travelled from a dredge used on the Columbia near the Lewis, to Tina Bar, so I finally feel vindicated. (edit) In aisle 3A of my files, I have the database on prop dredging (using a propeller on a boat to stir up the bottom..illegal in most areas)...I think it may yield some insight, although I have to get Tom to crunch the numbers for me, probability-wise. (edit) How was Cooper able to find the Lewis River?

1) The obligatory hero shot, with the sun background (TomK) Always thinking, watching, waiting. 2) Picture of big boats. I don't know if this is a recent or historical shot of boats on the Columbia or what. A lot of other stuff you've already seen equivalent snaps of, here on the thread. 3) Watch out Troy, Close! 4) Busted! Troy flying square canopy. Cropping ain't enough.

There's really not much interesting. 1) I think I got the Cousin Brucie snap right, from his description of saying "bad ass" 2) jump reenactment for 377 3) gizmo thing outside Tom Kaye's house 4) Earl Cossey, wearing a NB-8 5) closer view of Cossey 6) Geoffrey Gray (the writer guy)..Unmasking D.B. Cooper is the name of the 2007 NY Mag article on Christiansen. Is Gray writing some more? 7) Showing Perris logo on bottom of reenactment plane 8) Name the rig Troy is using? (visible logo) 9) Troy Hartman was the pro jumper that re-enacted? 10) Troy showing off

WTF? I thought we were done. Okay, I'm researching propellors. What size ship do you think snagged Cooper and/or the money bag? What speed would the prop be at, and are we talking clockwise or counterclockwise rotation? I'm wondering how often crap gets transported by propeller in the columbia. It must be fairly often? So it must still be happening? I wonder if Tom could do an experiment where he throws a dead body or money bag into the Columbia, and tries to snag it on a propeller? Is there a place where you can get cadavers? We'd have to send the body down the Lewis first, but I think access to water is open, i.e. no private property issue, so it should be okay to run the experiment. Looks like things are coming together. I love it when a plan comes together. (edit) Brucie: didn't you pay attention? 305 was flying on autopilot and followed V-23. Obviously Washougal wouldn't make sense. I guess the autopilot information is new and should be added to the database. (edit) 377 is a self-admitted trollman. I'm sure he can corroborate the propeller transport resolution of the case. Maybe he provided expert witness on this? (edit) Orange1 is hotter than "the Babe from Chicago" (edit) snipped a frame from the documenary: team of scientists investigating propellers. (edit) I don't believe the re-enactment guy jumped with a NB-8..just fyi. In fact some of the canopy flight was cropped so you couldn't see the canopy... but you could see he had a modern square canopy.

Okay, watched Nat Geo. Actually reconfigured stuff so I could run straight into my computer (I had a card with a tv tuner that I hadn't used but managed to get it going..cool) So I have a copy for my own personal use :) In summary: Tom Kaye, lead of the citizen scientist team, determined that Cooper jumped and landed in the Lewis River. He died on the water landing, then both body and money went downstream to the Columbia, where one or both got snagged on the propeller of a boat going upstream. This brought the money against the current to the area of Tina Bar. The bag etc, came apart at that time, and deposited the money at Tina Bar. The deposit at Tina Bar happened shortly after the jump. Tom has determined this somehow. Larry Carr has other knowledge that says, based on Cooper's actions, that he was not an experienced jumper. Larry is looking for someone to find Dan Cooper comic books in the attic belonging to an uncle who died or disappeared in 1971. Oh, Larry's comment about a note with instructions going with the parachute, and Cooper saying "I don't need that" or something like that, was repeated in the film. So must have happened. Although the Tosaw (or who was it) account of Cooper showing he could detonate the bomb by touching two wires, was repeated too. I suppose Carr approved that, so I guess we can assume that the two wire detonation demonstration happened? Don't know. Good work! (edit) Finally. I've achieved my two goals. I have the most posts on this thread, more than Jo, and now: I have the last post. Good to be me! (edit) I'm not sure what science Tom used that was "new forensic science" compared to the last 38 years. But Tom definitely has a lot of shit in his garage. And he's an old guy that talks assertively, and has a beard, and glasses. I got that much. The number crunching wasn't released. (edit) Geoffery Gray was on. He's a lot younger than I thought. Younger than Generation Kill I think. (edit) Cossey was on, but they didn't show his real name. Just "Coss" I believe it was. (edit) They mentioned Perris when they talked about the recreated jump. I posted the name of the jumper and location before, from a blog. I forget if that blog said Perris also. I wasn't sure if it was Perris, because I didn't see any naked women. (edit) Christiansen was the big suspect they explored, for like 2 minutes. Larry didn't like Christiansen though. No comic books.

interracial 3 on 3 porn? georger, I'm shocked! This is how we find out? You tell us?

Jo has always been intriguing. She's posted a lot of crazy stuff, so it's easy to find random connections. In the context of the present discussion, this old post of hers is interesting, or not! Jo said: "There was a "China Man" Duane knew. (I don't know if he was Chinese or Japanese), but when his path crossed with Duane's during our marriage (he knew Duane as John). We were invited to his home one evening. Duane asked him if he still painted. He pointed to paintings on the wall - these painting if I remember right were watercolors and sketches. There were towers (like guard towers) and lots of gold colors. I was NOT told what they were of - but from the conversation it was someplace that they both were at - because of the conversation which they kept brief. I now believe those towers to have been a prison or encampment, but not a regular prison. Duane asked about "TW's" first wife - TW said she had died - there were grown children from that first wife. He had remarried and had a couple of Cookie Crumb Crushers in 1980. I did not know TW's age - I am not good at judging age of oriental individuals. They were both very careful what was said in front of his wife and me. They were friends but in a strange way that I didn't comprehend...caring, knowing, secretive, protective - honor for one another. I have some conjectures about this, but that is all. TW died a few yrs ago, but I did not question his widow because she knew NO more than I did about the past of these two. In 1980 if the wife was deceased and the kids grown that meant that Duane knew TW in the 60's. There was another man around the same time - (TW, this man and Duane knew each other) - the other name and the man who told me "If you want to be around to play with your Grandkids - destroy everything you have and do not look back - Duane knew people in HIGH places." He was nervous and didn't want to talk to me when I called him - this is all he told me in 1996. "

Jo said: "RAISE doubts about the National Security of this place we call America." There is no security. Get over it. When we discuss national security, it's only economic issues, i.e. protecting economic interests. I suppose indirectly that is vital for personal security. But potatoes can grow in a lot of places and don't need much sun. Now you can argue the moral side: USA serving as policeman in the world, protecting those less strong. Well, I dunno about that one. I'll stay away from that hot potato. Now you could say there is loose technology that can kill a bunch of people at once. Yes that's true. But the numbers aren't as staggering as the tens, hundreds of thousands killed as a result of various political issues, all over the planet. I think the main focus should be on political disagreements and what causes them. Competition for resources (imbalance of wealth etc.) guarantees conflict. So we shouldn't be surprised at the existence of conflict. There should be conflict! If the USA's plan is that it's all about killing everyone that might want to harm us, it ain't going to work. Because the "everyone that might want to harm us" includes US citizens!!! (see McVeigh etc)

Okay, I had to really pull some weight to get this done. But I knew Sluggo would mention The Prisoner, so even though it's not premiering till November, the guys got AMC to release a 9-minute clip at ComicCon. Enjoy: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1119352258?bctid=30345659001 They wanted to post it at "brightlight.com", but I said "what are you stupid? and we settled on "brightcove.com" (edit) also at youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FqQsaK5KpQ

:) Yes it's like the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. The 6 degrees of South Africa. But I can top that. 377 made the "Paintball Wizard" reference like last week, talking about Tom Kaye. He knew we were going to be talking about Butlins and you'd compare it to "Tommy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZCwiNJ4wgo (edit) and my Jack Nicholson reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxfPIe2qqxw&feature=related

I had never heard of it. Just read on wikipedia after you snipped that line. It's weird. Sounds like a twist on Disneyland/Disneyworld here. We still like our Disneylands. I guess that's a good thing?

!!!! You must conform! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xNuQ7Do_Ro&feature=related (edit) or maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcoats_(Butlins)

"I am not a number! I am a free man!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29JewlGsYxs nice mashup here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsptrgBPvZw&feature=related (also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner ) Also, apparently a tv miniseries (remake) has been shot, about to be aired? The Prisoner is an upcoming 2009 television miniseries based on the 1960s TV series The Prisoner. It is produced by American cable network AMC in co-operation with British channel ITV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner_(2009_TV_miniseries) reviews of the original: ---- "The Prisoner" is a unique piece of television. It addresses issues such as personal identity and freedom, democracy, education, scientific progress, art and technology, while still remaining an entertaining drama series. Over seventeen episodes we witness a war of attrition between the faceless forces behind 'The Village' (a Kafkaesque community somewhere between Butlins and Alcatraz) and its most strong willed inmate, No. 6. who struggles ceaselessly to assert his individuality while plotting to escape from his captors. ------- A high-ranking but un-named Agent in the British Government resigns from his job/post and leaves for a holiday. While packing he is gassed and is taken to a beautiful but deadly prison known only as "The Village" where people are taken, given a Number to be called by and kept there for the rest of their lives if they don't tell No. 2 (the deputy head of "The Village") the information they are captured for. Escape is nearly impossible as "The Village" has amazing but deadly weapons to use if anybody tries to escape. The Agent is given the title of "No. 6" but he adopts the name of "The Prisoner". The series tells of his attempts to resist the plots of each No. 2 (who is replaced with another if an attempt on No. 6 fails) to get his information and against any attempt to disrupt the nearly peaceful running of the "The Village". The Village is determined to crack The Prisoner by attempting to get the answer to why he resigned from his job/post. As time goes on, two questions plague The Prisoner's mind - How can he escape and who is the real leader of the Village - the mysterious No. 1?. ------ A man who drives a 60's Lotus sports car around London resigns from a top secret job. We next see him packing for a holiday at home, and a credit appears ... "The Prisoner". He is gassed, falls asleep and then wakes up in "The Village". Everyone in "The Village" is a number, and is there for security reasons (people too dangerous and who hold too much information to just let go). The series spends all its time trying to get the "information" out of No.6 about why he resigned. Plus it spends quite a while chasing him with a weather balloon :-) A strange cult UK TV series.