snowmman

thanks for those snaps georger. some I had posted, but there were at least two I had not seen before. did you get them from video somewhere? are there links? (you may have forgotten where you got them from, by now)

You were right, 377. It was a lot faster/better to pour slabs for the walls, and then raise them up with a crane, rather than pour in place. The project turned out pretty good. Photo attached.

I think this is 377 and SafecrackingPLF in the tunnel at Fort Bragg. How come they get such a big one?

Back in the caveman era, Jo posted http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2530355;search_string=north%20carolina;#2530355 "I know he was in North Carolina and South Carolina during the yrs 1968 thru 1971 off and on. Lived in Columbia for sometime." North Carolina is interesting because of Fort Bragg. Jo: did Duane ever live in the vicinity of Fort Bragg?? (edit) I just noticed Jo's post was from Nov 14, 2006. That's MIGHTILY impressive. Coming on 3 years, posting to DZ.com about a single topic. I don't care what planet you're from, that's impressive.

on the idea of the Fazio seeing fragments. Do we agree that there were no black bills when the money was found? I'm also not sure how Fazio could visually identify (it appears he didn't recover any) fragments of paper as coming from dollar bills, from a distance of at least six feet. Could Fazio have seen something else? natural or otherwise? I mean it beggars belief that he visually saw a debris field of black fragments, and identified it as fragments from bills just by looking at it, or remembering something after the money was found. Black fragments: if they're black, how do you know they are dollar bill fragments anyhow, just from a distant visual inspection. Bruce: I posted the page from the Tosaw book. Is that the page Fazio pointed to when you interviewed him? I have the Norjak photo also. If that photo wasn't it, maybe it was the Norjak photo. Maybe Fazio remembered seeing fragments, the memory being after the money was discovered. But when the dig happened the fragments had been washed away. Who the heck knows what we're talking about with this "fragment field" though. (edit) an alternate explanation of the "fragment field" would be that it was the brown remnants from Duane Weber's paper bag. But people would instantly recognize that it's unlikely for a paper bag to flake out like that. Once you realize that, it makes you think about the craziness of this dollar bill fragment field proposal.

Georger said "Ckret posted here that he wants well-reasoned arguments backed up with facts and data. I believe that is his stance and I share that point of view." I was wondering if we could agree on the following. Tom said he pinpointed the dredge plume to be 150 feet away from where the money was found, and used that measurement to claim that the money could have arrived at Tena Bar shortly after the jump, i.e. before the dredging. Do we all agree that the Fazios spread the sand from the dredging on Tena Bar (their testimony), so that independent of where the initial plume was, from the pipeline dredge, that the spoils likely were spread widely on Tena Bar? I can't understand how Tom used one measurement, to discount Palmer's report of layers and contents of those layers, when there was straightforward testimony from Fazio that could explain the dispersion of dredge spoils away from the initial plume shown in the aerial photos. Oh BTW, those aerial photos were shown on the documentary and referred to as "satellite photos"...We know they were aerial right? I don't think they had satellite photos in the '70s like that (they were Corps of Engineers photos if I remember right, for floodplain analysis?)

georger said "I did and I have just addressed it. Good work! Thanks! " yeah, the Cowlitz is pretty far away [from the Lewis], and everything seems to say similar stuff wouldn't be happening at the Lewis. But clearly the Columbia is a much more complicated river, at different points, then I had realized. The stuff about the Mt St Helens debris going upstream in the Columbia (from the Cowlitz entry point) is good too (the book url I posted). I was intrigued about how they said the stand-still or flow reversal happens at low-flow points/times. Does it mean anything? Probably not, but good background/context/stuff to muse about.

good overview of the issues surrounding all the testimony and hydrology around tena's bar, georger. I like these summaries that just try to collate all the available info, and implications or possibilities, as opposed to one-paragraphs that wrap with "and that's why it's obvious it got hooked on a propeller"

You didn't read the page in the book I referenced. I don't know what we're debating. I'm confident neither of us knows anything about the behavior of the Columbia around the Lewis, today or in 1971. And I doubt Tom does. The issues around the Cowlitz/Columbia juncture are explained in that book. The question is "why did the mud go 7 miles upstream". Not what happened after it did.

I don't care enough about the river theories to research them more. There are plenty of propellers anyhow. No reason to analyze hydraulics. Hey, what about 1300 lb sturgeon! 13 feet! (they're not allowed to lift them out of the water in OR?) pics here http://www.nwfish.com/Sturgeon/sturgeon_fisheries.htm (edit) It would have been way ballsy for Tom to say a 1000lb sturgeon moved the money from the Lewis to Tena Bar!

This book analyzes the effects of the Mt St. Helens eruptions...here specifically the mud and debris into the rivers: http://books.google.com/books?id=AlysQS0xwjEC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=columbia+reverse+flow+cowlitz&source=bl&ots=IxRTz3860q&sig=5Kj5XP6kRRHA8iwwDsacyIUMZXM&hl=en&ei=LB91St3TDInYsQPin-DnCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=columbia%20reverse%20flow%20cowlitz&f=false It says an estimated 45 million cubic yards of sediment were dumped in the Columbia from the Toutle and Cowlitz Rivers. Estimated 14 million cubic yards of this material filled in parts of the navigation channel. "According to Haeni (1983) "[The deposit was] in an area 7 miles upstream and 2 miles downstream from the junction of the Cowlitz and Columbia Rivers." That's interesting. Sure the Cowlitz is way downstream from the Lewis. But hell, it's interesting the debris could have gone that far upstream. The dye experiment from the '60s seems vindicated. more from that page in the book "The flow of the Columbia River is in influenced by daily tidal cycles. During this cycle, there are periods when the river stands and periods when the flow is reversed in an upstream direction. The bulk of the sediment loads carried by the Cowlitz River reached the Columbia River during a period of reduced, or possibly reversed, flow. Although the reverse flow effect is thought to extend only as far upstream as river mile 52, much of the sediment was deposited upstream from the mouth of the Cowlitz for 7 miles"

Jerry, did you know the Columbia can reverse flow up to the Cowlitz?

My statement about Lake River is correct. Why do you use the word "stupid" rather than just presenting data? You know, from my point of view, it's all you guys who are constantly throwing insults around. I rarely see any facts or data from you guys. It's funny. I can count on you guys to throw (weak attempts at) insults when you have no data. Sure thing. I guess you're saying the Lake River behavior in 1971 was different than today? Is that what you're saying? I believe I researched that, and I'm not sure I agree. I'm not interested in looking at it again though. If you have any data post it. Anecdotal stuff doesn't count for much. But here's another nice doc on current behaviors. Good background starts on page 18 of http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/PartnershipTechnicalFoundation121208.pdf but there's similar info in lots of places. "Typical Water Year The source and volume of contributing flows to Vancouver Lake vary throughout the year. When examining lake hydrology and its effects on lake dynamics, it is important to understand changes in flow from different sources. One way to become familiar with changes in flow at the lake from month to month is by looking at a typical water year at Vancouver Lake (see Figure 2-2). For scientists examining flows, a water year typically begins in October. The following paragraphs represent an interpretation of flow data by Ron Wierenga of Clark County Public Works. In October, water levels at Vancouver Lake and their tributaries are at their lowest, and tidal fluctuations are more influential than tributary flows. As a result, the direction of flow through Lake River reverses daily, flowing into and out of Vancouver Lake at different times during the day. During the rainy season (November to February), the lake level rises to intermediate stages as flows from Burnt Bridge Creek and Salmon Creek increase rapidly. Lake water is dominated by flows other than the Columbia River, and during the winter it is assumed that local tributaries are the primary source of water to Vancouver Lake. Flow through Lake River reverses direction (either to or from Vancouver Lake) for days at a time, depending on runoff from local watersheds and dam operations for hydropower. From March to June, local tributary flows decrease and inputs from the Columbia River rise as a result of springtime snowmelt and rainfall. The highest water levels at Vancouver Lake are often observed in early to mid-June. During the spring, Lake River typically flows south from the Columbia River to Vancouver Lake for long periods of time. The lake maintains high water levels, which are influenced mainly by Columbia River flows. In June and July the lake level can drop rapidly as Columbia River stage declines. At this time Lake River typically carries water away from the lake, flowing to the north for long periods at atime. During the last few months of the water year, from July to October, the lake remains at its lowest levels and the direction of flow in Lake River again reverse daily as a result of tidal fluctuations. During this period only water from the southern reach of Lake River is exchanged with lake water. Columbia River water continues to enter the lake through the flushing channel as a result of tidal swings and dam operation. Figure 2-2 (attached) 2006 Vancouver Lake and Columbia River Water Levels (CPU and NOAA river gauges 2008)

This is an interesting paper, apparently from the late '60s. Was talking about issues with the cooling water for a proposed nuke plant, but the key thing is that it says the Columbia experiences reversal of hydraulic flow, due to tides, up to 40km from the river mouth. The specific case they show with a map, is where the Cowlitz river hits the Columbia. It's a good distance past the Lewis (towards the ocean). The used dye and actually did a nice study with data. In their conclusions "Tihs study shows that an extensive upstream movement of water can occur near Prescott during low flow stages of the Columbia River". It's interesting, because it talks about the reversal being more likely during low flow times? The paper is good. Georger should take some time to digest it. It probably doesn't apply because the Lewis is too far past the Cowlitz...but it's interesting. http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_14/issue_6/0960.pdf We do know that the canal/stream that drains Vancouver Lake (the old one called "Lake River", not the new channel) experiences flow reversal because of tide and water level issues. We discussed this before... Hmmm. We should analyze that known behavior more. Maybe there really can be some flow reversal from the Lewis, to Tina Bar. Would be wild if so, (although supposedly discounted in 1980 by tidal person???) "The upstream flow was of sufficient strength and duration to carry the dye about 4.7 km upstream from it's release point. The dye was confined chiefly in the main channel"

Georger observed "I will remind everyone that Quantico did its own analysis of the money, clear back in 80. The FBI has had every opportunity to do further testing analysis over the years, as methods changed and new questions arose." That's a good point. The show talked about "new" forensic science, but what tools were usable on the money now, that weren't available in 1980? SEM's have been marketed since 1965. What new tools could Tom bring to bear? Any? "The SEM was further developed by Professor Sir Charles Oatley and his postgraduate student Gary Stewart and was first marketed in 1965 by the Cambridge Instrument Company as the "Stereoscan". The first instrument was delivered to DuPont." My theory has always been that Larry is comfortable with hiding information, to the point of apparent deception. (depends on your point of view). If Larry told us some stuff, why not tell us more about any money analysis? Why hold back anything? (Is he writing a book :)...the classic Cooper-related refrain! :) In any case, if we take Larry at face value, the FBI analysis must have suggested the money was deposited after the dredging, maybe a couple years before the find. Or am I forgetting what Larry implied? (edit) There's no new data that suggests any FBI analysis was wrong, Correct?

Tom may never publish, and his work never be released. Are you prepared for that prospect? No problem. It does add to the mystery of his TV appearance then, but hey! that will add to the layers of obfuscation that the next DZ.com thread (in 10 years) has to scrape away! :) Georger lamented: "Do you realise, we dont even have coordinates for where the money actually was! " Tom apparently has them, apparently validated by Ingram and Fazio. Jerry may have gotten them that day. Yes we don't have them. Maybe covert AZ op is needed? Georger measured "This forum is irrelevant and basically an anecdote." Yes, agreed. Hasn't it always been?

What am I comparing this thread to? The serious answer - go and look at any of the "other" threads in history and trivia, skydiving and skydiving disciplines - on the whole the threads are serious, well informed debates. I think that the "tone" of this thread is slightly lower than the "naked postwhore glory" threads in Bonfire. As to this forum being any worse on technical quality than other sources on cooper - once you strip away the noise I doubt it. Ah. That's the mistake. This thread has nothing to do with skydiving, really. It just happens to be here. I don't think there's any way to make it related to skydiving. It happens to involve a parachute and a jump. But it is as closely related to road flare manufacture. Or bourbon drink recipes. (edit) For instance, from my point of view, the only thing interesting about the thread is the possibility of getting a paintball guy to release information about 38 year old bills the FBI gave him for some reason. That's about as far from skydiving as you can get!

nigel99: you may be exactly right. But: Compare to what you see on TV documentaries, after consultation with FBI Larry Carr, and Scientist Tom Kaye. Are we any worse? I think basically the same. I mean, what are you comparing this thread to? What's the gold standard? (edit) I think the frustration is that it's all insane, and there is no path to sanity. It's a tar baby. You touch it, you go insane. There is no level of intelligence, knowledge, skill, equipment, money, secret information, or anything that can change that.

this article says they were starting to look at Canada retail (with T. Eaton) in 1974. In 1974 they had 85 stores in Belgium!! http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10B10F83D551B778DDDAF0994DC405B848BF1D3 U. C. Penney and T. Eaton Plan Canada Retail Study April 16, 1974, Tuesday Page 58, 123 words The J. C. Penney Company and the T. Eaton Company, Ltd., Canada's largest general-merchandise retailer, have announced a joint study of retailing opportunities in Canada. Their objective is an eventual joint retailing effort in that country. ... Penney, second largest American retailer of general merchandise after Sears, Roebuck Co., already operates 85 Sarma-stores in Belgium and four stores in ..." Brenda Moore got married on Long Island, reported 8/27/1972. Here father was the president of the Belgian division then: "Brenda Moore Is Wed on LI New York Times - Aug 27, 1972 Her father is a vice president of J. C. Penney Company, Inc., and president of the company s Belgian division, Sarma, S.A. Mr. Cher was graduated in 1970 ... "

Quick search. This is interesting. Says in the '70s, JC Penney had stores in Italy (and the founder died in 1971 ...funny coincidence) ...there's a Belgian connection in 1971!!(see 2nd snip below) (and weirdly an insurance connection). Check the source links if you don't believe my snips. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Penney "In 1966, J. C. Penney finished off the country's 50 states with the opening of its Honolulu, Hawaii store. In 1969, the company acquired Thrift Drug, a chain of drugstores headquartered in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It also acquired Supermarkets Interstate, an Omaha-based food retailer which operated leased departments in J. C. Penney stores, The Treasury stores, and Thrift Drug stores. On February 12, 1971, James Cash Penney died at the age of 95. In respect of James Cash's death the company's stores were closed for half a day. Later in 1971, the stores became J. C. Penney, and adopted their famous logo which has been used ever since (with only minor variants). In 1977, J. C. Penney sold its stores in Italy to La Rinascente and also removed its Supermarkets Interstate leased departments. In 1979, the Visa card began to be accepted in J. C. Penney stores. MasterCard was accepted the following year." http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/450063/JC-Penney-Corporation-Inc "In 1966 it acquired two insurance companies. Overseas operations began in 1968–69, when it acquired Sarma, SA, a Belgian retail chain; and in 1971 it inaugurated stores in Italy under the name J.C. Penney, SpA. In 1988 the firm relocated its headquarters from New York City to Dallas. Although J.C. Penney opened stores in Mexico and Chile in 1995, it closed its international merchandising division in 2003. In the early 21st century the company operated roughly 1,000 stores in the United States and Puerto Rico."

good points all, georger. you said "It could also be standard European dress." I may be betraying a stereotype, but were clip-on ties used in Europe as much as US? Especially a JC Penney clip on tie. I thought I went thru the JC Penney reach in 1971, not sure if it extended into Canada. I was ruminating about it on US service bases at the time. Really doubt Europe at that point in time? hmm..maybe I'll look.

This is a little deep and maybe off the liberal or conservative scale, but as an historical note it's interesting (vietnam references while it's going on..and not yet "over") and it's still applicable today. It's easy to forget with the Bush "terror" label, that terror has been happening non-stop, by groups all over the world, for a long time. What's new is the ability of smaller groups to inflict its results over longer distances. Noam Chomsky might make some people livid, which is a reasonable reaction. I've not read much of him before. http://www.chomsky.info/debates/19671215.htm The Legitimacy of Violence as a Political Act? Noam Chomsky debates with Hannah Arendt, Susan Sontag, et al. December 15, 1967 ROBERT B. SILVERS: ... Under what conditions, if any, can violent action be said to be "legitimate"? ... ... A second case, which I guess is the one everybody's got on their mind, Vietnam, raises interesting and difficult questions in this regard. I'm not going to discuss the situation post-February 1965 but rather the earlier period. From 1954 to 1957 there was large scale terror instituted by the Saigon government, and the reason was pretty simple, it wasn't just blind and wild. The reason was -- this is Buttinger's theory and I think accurate -- that any democratic institutions that would have been created would have been taken over by the Vietminh and therefore it was impossible for the Saigon regime to allow any sort of democratic expression. It was necessary to resort to violence and terror. Then, in the period from 1957 to 1965, there were two sorts of violence, roughly. There was the mass violence conducted by Saigon and the United States; Bernard Fall estimates about 160,000 killed during that period. And there was also the selective violence, selective terror carried out by the Viet Cong as part of a political program which succeeded in gaining the adherence of a good part of the population. During both of these periods, Americans tended to accept and condone the violence that was conducted by the United States and the Saigon government, reserving their indignation for the much more limited Viet Cong terror. For my part, of course, there's no question about justifying the American and Saigon government terror. But what about the harder question, that of the terror practiced by the National Liberation Front? Was this a legitimate political act? The easiest reaction is to say that all violence is abhorrent, that both sides are guilty, and to stand apart retaining one's moral purity and condemn them both. This is the easiest response and in this case I think it's also justified. But, for reasons that are pretty complex, there are real arguments also in favor of the Viet Cong terror, arguments that can't be lightly dismissed, although I don't think they're correct. One argument is that this selective terror -- killing certain officials and frightening others -- tended to save the population from a much more extreme government terror, the continuing terror that exists when a corrupt official can do things that are within his power in the province that he controls. ... So to sum up: if violence could be shown to lead to the overthrow of lasting suppression of human life that now obtains in vast parts of the world, that would be a justification for violence. But this has not been shown at all, in my view.

Jerry worried "Because so many people wanted to be involved and made false alligation's for 15mins of fame. Many more young woman died.Because of fabrcater's .There was so much Info that led into the wrong direction" It is possible that if Cooper is alive, he might hijack another plane, I suppose. Maybe ask for even more money! I guess you're right, Jo is threatening people's lives by impeding the investigation. :) Run! There's Cooper! and he's got a .......paper bag. (edit) "Now the truth is being told." I, for one, thank Larry Carr for telling the truth to us. What a relief. Oh by the way, what is the truth???? did I miss it?

Interesting about Quebec, georger. "The hijacking then a political act, not something heroic as so many people think." Well, I think part of the "heroic" nature of it, was that maybe it was a political act? People layer their own feelings on to it. What about the bourbon drink? Does that align with a Quebec theory? I'm thinking no? or ??? (edit) a quick look at canada and whiskey: "Canadian Whisky is made primarily from corn or wheat, with a supplement of rye, barley, or barley malt. There are no Canadian government requirements when it comes to the percentages of grains used in the mash bill. Unlike Bourbons, they are aged, primarily in used oak barrels. The minimum age for Canadian Whisky is three years, with most brands being aged four to six years. Virtually all Canadian whiskys (except the pot-distilled malt whiskies of Glenora in Nova Scotia) are blended from different grain whiskies of different ages. Bulk Canadian Whiskys are usually shipped in barrels to their destination country where they are bottled. These bulk whiskies are usually bottled at 40% ABV (80 proof) and are usually no more than four years old. "Bottled in Canada" whiskies generally have older components in their blends and are bottled at 43.4% ABV (86.8 proof)."

He apparently first voiced the grudge in 1984, just 4 years after the money was found. When this video was made, he had been voicing the grudge for 21 years nonstop. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z02J_kPincA in another weird coincidence, he echos the "tree falls in a forest" theme that Jo introduced http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8CibAuvZM4 I have no evidence he ever contacted Gunther, though.